Vertical fasteners

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dw
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Re: Vertical fasteners

#126 Post by dw » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:31 pm

Jake,

Thanks for the heads-up on Gurney. I buy all my tacks from them--I just think they make a superior tack. Plus I got some brass brads from them (I don't know if they are still making them) that are perfect for toplifts on men's dress shoes.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#127 Post by homeboy » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:24 pm

Georgene,

I was trying to find some "zinc" plated lasting nails so I could last like the pros. After cutting off the lasting allowance, they bend these "brads....nails" over the holdfast which helps remove any wrinkles at the feather. Here's what I ordered. Don't think they are "zinc" plated like some of their tacks.
14315.jpg


Dee-Dubb,

Yeah, I order all my "metal-points" from Gurney. They are good people and have quite a history.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#128 Post by dw » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:15 pm

Jake,

I think what you want is a wire brad in about an 18 gauge and about one to one and a quarter inch long...

I bought about ten pounds some years ago direct from Holland Manufacturing (or maybe from a dealer like this one and I see ebay has some one pound packages at auction--I searched for "Holland mfg 1-1/4" x 18 gauge wire brads.

But you can find them in places like Lowes or Home Depot in those small one ounce (?) snap-paks, too.

I like the longer brads but one inch is probably long enough.

Years ago when I was too green to know better, I was in one of those time-forgotten hardware stores you sometimes run across in out of the way farm communities and saw a barrel of 1-1/4" brads labels "Lasting Nails."

I should have bought the whole barrel...they would have sold it to me for less than $25.00, I reckon but, as it was, I bought half a pound just to try them out. Image

I wasn't convinced at the time and eventually moved across the mountains. But looking back I wish I'd been wiser. 'Course if I'd been that wise then, I'd be a boot god now. Image

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#129 Post by homeboy » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:36 pm

Dee-Dubb,

Thanks for the references. I'll see if I can find them.

Basically, I thought Gurney would have something. And I wanted to try to support them as much as possible. Hell, they've been in business since 1825 (I believe) supporting us.

I think, if I'm not mistaken, Home Depot has those little snap-paks in zinc coated.

Anyway, Thanks for the leads.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#130 Post by paul » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:46 am

Jake,
I've always preferred Gurney, so I'll add to the thanks for posting this too.
It really gripes me that s/r finders only go for price. But then the s/r trade is not what it used to be either.
I'm glad to know we can buy direct from them.
Thank you,
Paul

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#131 Post by homeboy » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:19 am

Paul,

You are quite Welcome. Gurney has always been good to me, even to the point of making a "specialty" item. Now, I had to buy 25 pounds, but very reasonable.

Paul, these nails I just received may fit the bill for lasting. Only time will tell, and I will get back and let you know.

You've been in the business for years and you already know our sources are drying up. I say if an item from one of our suppliers will work, let's support them instead of Home Depot.

Just my 2 cents worth. Thanks for the reply!

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#132 Post by dw » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:54 am

Jake,

I'm all for supporting Gurney and others but even though you didn't ask for my advice/thoughts, I suspect you are going to be unhappy using wire clinch nails in the way you describe.

First, 14 gauge is too stout to bend without damaging or distorting the leather underneath and it goes without saying that the damage to the last is going to be a significant issue as well. We don't use wood lasts much anymore but I've had wire clinch nails in my shop for over 40 years and I know from first hand experience that wood will break up just driving that heavy a nail into it over and over again, nevermind bending it, as well.

I know people will substitute when the correct tool or material is not readily available but take my word for it, 14 gauge is too heavy. Heck, 17 gauge worries me. The only benefit to using a heaver nail is that they won't bend as easy when you're driving them...of course, Image the corollary to that is that they won't bend as easily when you bend them either.

Before you make up your mind, make a HD run (or even your local mom & pop hardware store) see if you can't find some 18 gauge wire brads. Even one inch.

I think you'll be glad you did.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#133 Post by dearbone » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:27 am

Jake,

I agree with DW, the 18 gauge, one inch long or a little more is good for lasting,i have been using them ever since i seen them,i buy them in one pound package from our local shoe findings supplier but the company is STAR NAILS or STAR HEEL PLATE CO, NEWARK 5 N.J. wood workers use them for fine wood window work.

Nasser

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#134 Post by dw » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:08 am

Holland Manufacturing
1300 Bank St.
Baltimore, Md 21231
1-410-732-4455

Star Heel Plate co.
187 Christie St.
Newark, NJ 07105
1-973-589-5242

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#135 Post by homeboy » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:35 am

Dee-Dubb,

I ALWAYS want your advise!

Nasser/Dee-Dubb......I'm convenced! Thanks for the info. I can use the ones I received from Gurney to hold down the heel lifts while I'm pegging (or something else).

Thanks Fellers for keeping me out of trouble!

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#136 Post by dw » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:40 am

Here's an update...Star Heel Plate only carries blued 8/8" 18 gauge wire brads.

Holland Mfg. went out of business in 2002 (gee, I can't believe it's been that long since I ordered from them!)

18 gauge wire brads at 1.25" are readily available for nail guns. I'm not sure how much success you would have trying to drive them by hand, but I would be interested in finding out.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#137 Post by homeboy » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:18 pm

Dee-Dubb,

Concerning the nail gun brads, I was thinking the very same thing. I may have to go out and buy a pack.

Time does slip by us!

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#138 Post by tommick » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:39 am

I know one bootmaker who uses an electric stapler. Shoots low power and bends the staples over for lasting. The staples are easier to pull than brads.

I have an air stapler but never tried this. Maybe I should!

Tom

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#139 Post by homeboy » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:28 am

Dee-Dubb & Nasser,

Boy were you fellers right! Those 14 guage wire clinching nails are STIFF! I believe I can repair my old barn with those rascals. And it has seasoned oak boards!

Served me good for holding down a heel lift though.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#140 Post by homeboy » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:47 am

14334.jpg


I didn't have any 18 gauge. These are 1 1/4" 16 gauge (galvanized). Will let you know what I think after trying them.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#141 Post by dw » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:50 am

Jake,

All I can say is that I tried some 17 gauge and considered them too stiff and too stout.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#142 Post by tjburr » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:42 pm

I have been wanting to improve my edge finishing as well as learn how to make pegged sole shoes.

To this end I decided to make a simple upper and get some practice. I decided to pick an ankle high derby so I could refine the pattern a little as well.

Overall figuring I would get some practice.

While attempting the pegging, I have encountered something I thought I would ask if I needed to be concerned about.

In the picture below, you can see some of the pegs are grinning like it lost a few teeth. This is where pegs broke off at leather height as I believe I bottomed out at the bottom of the hole (and I hope without entering the lastImage).

Do I need to put additional pegs in? I know once I peg the sole on there will be more pegs going through this piece and was not sure I needed to worry about it.

When the pegs are way too long like this, is it better to shorten the pegs some prior to using them? Would this make it less likely I would have breakage?
14365.jpg
14365.jpg (89.92 KiB) Viewed 1246 times



In this case I glued down the vamp to the insole, but I was thinking my next pair I would whip-stitch.

I did run up against another problem. Prior to this I had done my lasting on a lap jack, and was doing just fine welting in my lap. I really did not want to take up the room to get one of those beautiful jacks from Dick, since my workspace is already cramped. However when I started trying to peg, I ended up throwing together a jack using the lap jack and some scrap wood in the garage. It works somewhat ok, but I think I put too much padding in the part that holds up the toe; it bounces when I peg which makes it harder to peg. If I decide to continue with pegging much I will probably have to consider something better though.
14364.jpg
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Terry

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#143 Post by dearbone » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:44 am

Interesting to see you are using a rand instead of direct sole pegging,First, there are shorter pegs,the 5/8" might be more suited to peg the rand,pegs are supposed to break at the leather height as you will do with the rest of the unbroken pegs, it is important to skive smooth the lasting allowance to avoid padding as you call it and BTW the pegs need to pierce the insole, you just don't want them in the wood too deep,It helps to use those V shape last for pegging work(easier to slip last out)use powder too,soles need to be mellow and two rows of pegs and about 7mm space in between pegs, the next row's first peg starts from the middle of the first two pegs on the first row(like brick laying), Pegs are driven home with one strike/hit by the hammer after they are well placed in the hole. My two cents for pegging.

One a different note,Since my membership dues are on the way,I guess,i can resume being a member again.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#144 Post by tjburr » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:15 am

Nasser,

Thanks very much for your explanation. You mention a V shaped last. Does that refer to one like below
14373.jpg


I was not quite sure if a rand should be used or not. I was going from the demo that Peter Okley provided a few years ago at the AGM. I wanted the end product to look similar to a welted shoe and was planning on using a fudge wheel in the forepart. I thought a rand would be needed for that.

I realized I did not ask my question exactly right though. I noticed on a practice piece that if I cut the peg off, it was nice and even with the leather top. When it breaks off, it was a ragged edge that was below the leather top. I did not know if this would cause a problem or not with the rand. For the sole I figured it would cause a problem in developing a nice smooth look, but I did not know if for either the rand or the sole it would reduce the strength.
14372.jpg
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Hopefully I did get the pegs to pierce the insole enough. I was trying to adjust things with the tip just touching the last.

Terry

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#145 Post by dw » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:08 pm

Terry,

Pegs breaking off below the surface of the leather is probably not desirable. Ideally, the pegs should "mushroom" at the surface rather than break off.

I will often use a peg that I know is a little long and cut them close to the leather and then drive them home, mushrooming the peg in the process.

When doing a pegged shoe or boot however, it is begging for trouble if the pegs drive too deep into the last. Only the point should penetrate the last. And even then the last should be pulled if possible when the forepart is done and the pegs floated.

As for using a rand, I think I'd use a 6 iron half midsole instead. Historically a clump sole was used and the clump was what got replaced.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#146 Post by dearbone » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:28 pm

Terry,

yeah, That's the last,I was present(maybe not fully) during Peter Oakley demo, I need some more of his pegging awls,they were nicely shaped just like the pegs themselves.
I don't think using a rand is such a bad idea,but back to those pegs that broke,if the breaking tip is below the rand surface,than i will put new pegs beside them specially if that happens on the foreparts where there is a lot of pressure to pull the rand out,if you can run one or both of your sole pegging rows over the rand, you will have a good bound, It makes not much different in strength if one has one sole or two or with a rand as long as they are pierced through, spaced closely and clinched on top. show us when you are done.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#147 Post by amuckart » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

DW,

Can you educate me on what "clump sole" means in this context? I'm familiar with the term as applied to historic (medieval/renaissance) repairs but I've not come across it in this context before.

Thanks.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#148 Post by kemosabi » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:15 am

Terry,

When pegging; A little beeswax works wonders...
Push your pegging awl into a cake of wax before each hole.

For a broken peg; Drive a new peg right along side his broken friend.


Cheers,
-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#149 Post by dw » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:40 pm

Alasdair,

Historically, a clump sole was a "half sole" that was put on top of the full boot outsole.

When I make a "historically similar" pegged boot, I often use a half mid sole...maybe 6 iron...which, for lack of a better term, I call a "clump sole". I peg it on, one row at about five or six ppi, right to the edge of the insole.

Then the outsole is mounted and pegged just inward of the pegs in the "clump sole." Double row, 10 ppi. But the outsole pegs do not go all the way into the insole. Theoretically the outsole can be replaced indefinitely and the "clump sole" never disturbed.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#150 Post by big_larry » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:45 pm

If I may,

About 4 years ago I constructed a simple pair of boots for myself using pegs. I have been amazed at how well the technique works. The pegs have worn with the leather, they all have stayed in place, and the sole line is rather trim and neat, if I may say so. If there is anyone that is afraid of using pegs, jump in, they work just fine!

I appreciate all the information and assistance available in this forum.

I wish you well, Lary Peterson

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