Vertical fasteners

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dw
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Re: Vertical fasteners

#101 Post by dw » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:49 pm

Nat,

An iron nail in the heel block...where it is seldom, if ever exposed to moisture...and one that never penetrates the insole, where constant moisture from the foot would be present,will seldom rust or turn black.

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(Message edited by dw on February 11, 2011)

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#102 Post by kemosabi » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:56 pm

DW;
I think we both posted at the same time!
Looks like you got to the substance of what I was after... Thanks.
-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#103 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:05 pm

DW,

Or you could use brass nails.
I also peg each heel layer, starting close to the heel edge and finally graduated inward from the heel edge.
On my 'working cowboy boots', meaning for real and not show I use 150 year old spikes which I oil temper and are placed betwixt 6 oz. Oak tanned leather that has been soaked in baking soda a few days. Never had a rust problem.

Cheers,

JesseLee

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#104 Post by kemosabi » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:07 pm

Nice job on the poem.
I agree with Jesse, by the way. This needs a tune to go with it, if it doesn't have one already.

Cheers,
-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#105 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:14 pm

Nat,

Thanks. Good cowboy poetry like that can be lost to but a few of us. Done as music, anyone can hear and enjoy it.

Cheers,

JesseLee

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#106 Post by kemosabi » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:16 pm

Jesse,
"Oil tempered spikes":
Are you using these for shanks, or are we still talking about heel nails? got a little lost there...

Baking soda sounds like an interesting trick.
Does that help balance the leather's PH, so it doesn't react?

-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#107 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:23 pm

Nat,

The spikes are for shanks. Its a cowboy tradition.

Cheers,

JesseLee

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#108 Post by bjohnsonleather » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 pm

I enjoyed that poem too. Seems like I have CD in the truck about a guy named "Big Ed". I think it is attributed to a footwear specialist.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#109 Post by kemosabi » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:50 pm

OK. I figured you were talking about using them as shanks, but I wasn't sure.

There's an old lumberyard in the small town where I live that still carries large spikes sold by the pound. Not sure what size I've been using... just eyeballed it. They're covered with some kind of sticky oil, but it didn't seem like a problem so I've been using them as-is.

Nice to know that oil, in general, isn't an issue. Besides, I think most of it burns off while heating and spooning the ends.

-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#110 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:55 pm

DW, that poem is making me want to haul my lonesome & not-lately-played guitar out of its case...and write you a tune to go with those words! I'll let you know if I come up with a good one Image

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#111 Post by dw » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:59 pm

I enjoyed that poem too. Seems like I have CD in the truck about a guy named "Big Ed". I think it is attributed to a footwear specialist.


Really?! I gave my permission to a fellow to use it on a CD but why in the world would he call me a "footwear specialist?"

Big Ed was also published in Western Horseman...and I got paid for it (of all things).

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tomo

Re: Vertical fasteners

#112 Post by tomo » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:10 pm

Jesse,
Do you jack the individual heel lifts (layers) or only the outer layer?
Also what does the Baking soda do apart from making you light on your feet. : )

More power to y'awl.
Tom.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#113 Post by dw » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:19 pm

I can't imagine it as a song.

You know the cowboy poetry (not to be confused with cowboy poultry) tradition is fundamentally just verse, not singing. Although it is undeniable that some of it has been made into ballads and the like.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be opposed, but at some level Kipling and Service had a lot of influence on traditional cowboy poetry and on me as well. I frankly can't imagine Tommy or The Cremation of Sam McGee as songs, either.

Nevertheless, I am grateful for all the kind words about what is essentially doggerel.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#114 Post by bjohnsonleather » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:42 pm

DW, I actually bought the CD because of Mike Beck's song "Don't Tell Me" (sorry).It has a couple guys on it kind of jumping back and forth between songs and poetry. The case and liner notes is probably lost to the ages or buried under vests, gloves, and jumper cables behind the seat. I liked the poem, just didn't know who wrote it. I heard someone recite that poem at something we went to a while back and he said a footwear specialist wrote it. I asked him later and he said your name. I thought yeah, call him a "footwear specialist" and Secretariat was just some racehorse.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#115 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:13 pm

DW,

In retrospect, I must agree with you. Perhaps some of our contemporarys could write lyrics for a cowboy singer.

Cheers,

jesseLee

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#116 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:14 pm

Tom,
Each lift is treated individually, pegged and pared level.

Cheers,

Jesselee

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#117 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:18 pm

Nat,

The oil will burn off. The spikes also make a nice hump in the arch which can be beautifully shaped.I just quench in old motor oil. Its a summer job as the forge is outside.

Cheers,

JesseLee

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#118 Post by kemosabi » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:21 am

I’m placing this montage in “vertical fasteners” since the purpose of prepping the bottom in this way is to fully peg the soles. Please feel to critique and offer suggestions as you wish as I’m interested in improving my techniques. Hopefully, this will help all of you get to know me better and may even offer some amusement as to how a 18 year Electronics Technician tries to make boots! (I’m used to holding a soldering iron in my hand, not a pegging awl)… So with that said; Here we go:


Vamp trimmed and forepart whip-stitched
13484.jpg



Heating metal shank:
13483.jpg


Spooning the ends (one on the right is done, left is still original shape):
13482.jpg


Shank bent to shape:
13481.jpg



Important step: Remove nails holding insole to last (So far, never forgot this part, but I’m always worried that I might sometime.)
13480.jpg


Shank fitted to waist:
13479.jpg



Stitching in the shank. I’ve done more elegant stitching here on previous boots, but this seems to work just fine. I like this stitching because it pulls in the waist nice and snug.
13478.jpg


Shank stitching is done.
13477.jpg


Skive the shank covers:
13476.jpg


Mount shank covers:
13475.jpg


Cork filler added to tread area and sanded smooth. I’ve heard the arguments against using cork here (vs. leather filler), but I guess I’m slow to change my ways on this one.
13474.jpg


Double soles on these boots. Went with Jesse Lee and DW suggestions about using double soles on pegged boots makes sole repair easier later. Here is the first sole added and the next ready to be placed on top.
13473.jpg



Next up; One of my favorite parts of bootmaking… Pegging.

I will add these pictures soon, since they are stored somewhere else right now.

Cheers from Sunny Colorado. Image

-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#119 Post by tjburr » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:55 pm

I was considering making a pair of boots with fully pegged soles and was doing some research.

I had a chance to see Peter Oakley's demo of pegged shoes several years ago at the AGM and was very intrigued. I decided I liked the look of the pegged sole.

With Peter's demo, he pegged a rand onto the shoe all the way around the shoe prior to pegging the sole on.

Looking at some pictures of full pegged boots, it is hard to tell if a rand is used. In one case I had almost convinced myself that a rand was not. In another case it looked like there was a rand from behind the ball, around the toe and return behind the ball.

The only real reference I seen on this site was it sounded like DW uses a pegged half midsole on his boots.

I was seeking knowledge of if various bootmakers that have made full pegged soles use a rand or not.
I was also curious from all the great historians that post on this site; what was traditionally done?

In addition

If anyone is interested check out this very refined pair of pegged shoes at Marcel's site

pegged shoe

Thanks for any feedback you can supply.
Terry

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#120 Post by kemosabi » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:24 am

Good question Terry. I am also curious about this.

Not sure why anyone would use a rand all the way around with a fully pegged boot/shoe, unless the intention was to outseam the sole later. Otherwise, what would keep the rand from pulling away from the sole at the tread-line? The heel makes sense because this area doesn't flex.

DW: At one time, I seem to remember you describing using your heel wiping technique with pegs instead of nails. The intention being; to leave the wiping strip in place forming a rand. Is this correct?

Regards,
-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#121 Post by tjburr » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:10 pm

I have a question maybe someone can add some additional information to how to perform something described in some of the old (dead guys) books.

The following are the quotes from the books

Golding volume V, page 180 at the bottom:
"If hand-made, in addition to the insole a "slip insole" may be temporarily inserted to take the peg points while making; this facilitates the slipping of the boot when made, and enables the maker to drive the peg the full length, without fixing the boot to the last and making it impossible to remove the boot when made. The slip insole is removed when the boot is slipped..."

F. Plucknett, Introduction to the theory and practice of Boot and Shoe Manufacture page 257, section 354:
"If a false insole is used on the last it facilitates the slipping of the last when the boot is made, the false insole would then be removed and ..."

I understand the goal of this is to allow the pegs to be driven a little further in for a pegged shoe to allow the main part of the peg, not reduced by the point, to be fully put through the insole.

The part I was hoping someone would have some advice on was; how thick can this be before I need to start reducing the size of the last to compensate. I know that adding a sock (of the insole cover variety) adds some thickness and I have not really compensated for this in the past. I however did not know if I could get away with something like 4oz slip insole.

Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated.

Terry

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#122 Post by dw » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:49 pm

While not commenting on the efficacy of adding a slip sole, I have never used one when pegging a boot or shoe.

The only place that the pegs might interfere with the removal of a last is in the forepart. If a maker is aware of the thicknesses of the materials he is using he can drive pegs that are short enough or drive longer pegs short to penetrate the insole a fairly consistent and calculated amount.

More than that the pegs feel different and the pegging hammer sounds different when the pegs enter the last...or meet the resistance of the last.

If I am full pegging a boot, I use a "clump" sole, if we may call it that--it's really just a mid sole only in the forepart.

I peg that "clump" sole on. Then I pull the last and level the pegs in the forepart. They're there, but admittedly mostly just the points.

Then I re-insert the last and mount the full sole. I peg the full sole calculating a similar amount of emergence...or a little less...in the forepart.

I have never had a pegged sole come loose.

Whether you use a slip sole or not, if you are pegging it is always beneficial to listen to the hammer and feel the peg. If you cannot control how deeply you drive the peg into the last, the slip sole is just another complication that serves no purpose--the pegs will still go too deep and prevent you from removing the last.

I don't know if this helps any but FWIW.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#123 Post by tjburr » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:15 pm

DW,

Thanks for the quick response.

I am close to having a pair of shoes ready to peg. I am using a simple pair of shoes as a test subject prior to trying on a pair of boots.

I was just getting a little nervous of ending up with a last that I could not pull.

Thanks for the mentioning of the clump sole as well. I was considering a rand all around, but had been considering something similar to a midsole, with the center cut out, since I had envisioned a wider rand which would have trouble maneuvering around the toe. However after reading your post, it occurs to me that I was not considering that most boots do not have a rand in the heel and your "clump" sole matches this construction closer.

Terry

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#124 Post by homeboy » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:25 am

Couldn't find a good place to put this. Emmett, you can move this if you want.

D.B. Gurney has an online store now. Received an order the other day; quick and convenient.

http://www.dbgurney.com/

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#125 Post by 1947redhed » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:58 am

Jake
What did you order from them?
Georgene

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