One "Last" Question

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
gcunning
4
4
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Gary
Location: Wichita Falls, TX, USA

Re: One "Last" Question

#26 Post by gcunning »

Bill
For a new person I think this would be great. The only negative part would be if I relied too much on this luxury and the people went out of business.
Gary
btippit

Re: One "Last" Question

#27 Post by btippit »

Gary,

A legitimate concern but one that could pertain to leather, heels, and just about anything. Just another note...this company I'm speaking of also intends to use the software for some internal and production consulting work. They will not be putting all their eggs in the custom basket. However, they will not have a factory to run that contradicts the idea of doing custom lasts so I think the chances of the service being offered for years to come is fairly safe.

Bill
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#28 Post by dw »

Bill,

Thanks for the info. I think Gary hit it in a nutshell. Most of us just want a source that we can count on to do good work and be there when we need them. The whole issue of lasts has become really, really problematic since TLW was sold to Sterling, and Sterling to JV. Jones and Vining has not been a good steward and although they have not totally curtailed making one pair at a time, they almost certainly will do so in the future. In fact, I get the intense feeling they've decided that now that they are the only remaining lastmaker in the US, they can charge and treat people pretty much as they want...which is true enough from an economic standpoint.

I am seriously disappointed that models that have already been digitalized cannot be transferred to this new system. A lot of work and money and energy went into those models....now they seem to be lost. Many of us had prototypes that we stored with TLW and they were irreplaceable. I don't expect JV to be very forthcoming...they're not gonna turn off even a rough model of my (they consider them "theirs," now) models for me without some exorbitant charge. That's the feeling I get from talking to them. I felt some comfort when I learned from Jas. that here was a digital record of these models...but how to retrieve them??!

Beyond that, if somehow my models could get entered into the system, I would be interested and I would point my students at the new source, as well. The price does not bother me and the added flexibility of being able to specify length and girth intrigues me. Most makers I know would be a little wary of willy-nilly sending in anomalous measurements and having a last built from those measurements. Sometimes it is more important *where* an increase in a girth is made than how much. But even there, I'd be interested in seeing the results, at least. I'm an old dog but I'm capable of learning at least one new trick a year...provided I can be convinced it's worth the expenditure of energy. Image

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
paul
8
8
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 14 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#29 Post by paul »

Bill,
I bought my first run of lasts from you 9 or 10 years ago and was sorry to hear of you no longer offering the service when I got back into custom making last year. I agree with Gary, from the perspective of someone who is still new at this trade, I think it could be a great service. Although I'd love to have the genetic knowledge of many of those who post here regarding fitting, I need all the help I can get.
PK
fneiii

Re: One "Last" Question

#30 Post by fneiii »

All,
Jones and Vining is going to destroy or already has many of the old prototypes they have aquired and will not sell or give any of these to anyone---competion.I just bought a pair of last from them and the manager was really helpful and nice which was not the situation a while back.
Montana Last Company had a set back, burning up the bearings in his machine, but now should be up and running. His prices are less than J & V.
Frank
Lisa Sorrell

Re: One "Last" Question

#31 Post by Lisa Sorrell »

Bill,
I would certainly be interested in knowing there was a place that I could get good lasts. I don't have nearly enough, and I can see the day coming when I'll need to order a last for almost every order.

I ordered two pair of lasts from Montana Last Co. in December. I just received one pair and I'm still waiting on the second. I was supposed to have the first pair around the first of January. I'm pleased with the last and I would order from him again, because I do understand setbacks from machinery problems. But if my orders are always late I'll be more hesitant to order. I may have just picked a bad time to order from him this time though...

Lisa
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: One "Last" Question

#32 Post by jake »

Lisa,

Consider yourself lucky! I ordered two pairs from Bruce last November. Still haven't received a thing! I'll let everyone know how this deal turns out in the end. My patience is running a little thin at this point though.

Bill,

I would only be interested in a last duplication/grading service. I've learned a skill which I don't especially want to pay someone else to do. We do appreciate your help!
btippit

Re: One "Last" Question

#33 Post by btippit »

I appreciate everyone's interest in this potential resource. In all fairness to Montana Last, it sounds like the late orders might have coincided with a broken machine. With the software I'm describing you can get everything from simple graded sizes to fully customized measurements. I'm guessing delivery would be anywhere from 2-6 weeks, generally closer to 2-4 weeks. I'll look forward to others commenting on the viability of this and I'll let you know if they decide to do it.

Bill
tmattimore

Re: One "Last" Question

#34 Post by tmattimore »

Bill I would also be interested in graded sizes to fill in and replace worn lasts
Tmattimore
D.A. Saguto--HCC

Re: One "Last" Question

#35 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

Bill,

Sounds better the more you tell us. Three to 4 weeks is plenty fast enough for me. Am I wrong though? Can they turn my TLW lasts according to your old model numbers, or do I have to have my whole bloody model line re digitized?
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#36 Post by dw »

Al, Bill,

Yes, that's the question I posed several takes ago. I hope I'm wrong but I got the impression that all the models that we had stored with TLW or Sterling or even, at this point, JV, were lost...inaccessible...incompatible with the software... something about the digitalized models having a spur on the heel and toe.

However, if what Bill is indicating is true and sizing models are moot with this new company, then a last or right foot model obtained from JV in a 9C ought to be sufficient to generate a digitalized model and, in turn, generate any size last. Still, it frustrates me that the models themselves...sort of like a supply of your own life blood that you had banked against catastrophe...are all essentially unobtainable short of further expense.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
D.A. Saguto--HCC

Re: One "Last" Question

#37 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

Bill,

So I can't just order a "TLW 1234" in a 9D with this new firm, I've gotta send my "1234" model to be traced all over again?

In certain cases this will be impossible, since the model "1234", was re-modeled into the "5678", because I assmed the "1234" was safely stored on a disc or something.

Can't recall how many digital models I have in the TLW model files, but it must be twenty or so. All that time and money is just kaput?

Say it ain't so.
btippit

Re: One "Last" Question

#38 Post by btippit »

Al - DW,

Don't kill the messenger. The old TLW digitations are not compatible with this system. However, if it were my business and I knew I was going to get repeat orders from a customer, I'd digitize his style for free. I'd also pledge that I wouldn't sell any of your "personal" styles on the open market, as I pledged and lived up to at TLW. Of course, if it's just the standard "TLW-1234" that's an open last and no matter who sends it in to be digitized, it should be available to the public. I don't know what the charge would be to digitize something if they knew there would probably only be one or two pairs ever turned off it.

I think the subject of digitations is not that important. I don't get the impression that these guys plan to make their money like that and even if it did cost a few dollars to get them digitized, as opposed to not being able to get the lasts, I think it would be worth it.

I'm surprised to hear that you can't get your original models back from JV, or did I misunderstand you?

If all else fails, let me know and MAYBE I can find someone to write a conversion for the data but it will not be easy as the lasts do have to and heel dogs on them in the TLW digitations, whereas the new format is simply the entire last surface, clean and neat.

Bill
walrus
3
3
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:00 pm
Full Name: Larry Waller
Location: Delavan, Wisconsin, USA
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#39 Post by walrus »

Al & DW

When Freeman shoe Co went out of business I got there entire R&D Department. .And around the walls were last models when their designers needed a new toe style or something different they would go to these lasts and call the company and have them turn them a sample .some of them were from company’s that were long gone and some of them were newer JV and Sterling and on and on . This was like a master set of the lasts that were available at one time or another.I know that many of these masters were lost when these company’s started buying each other out and decided not to save them. But at least one of each has been saved and can be digitized .I probably have several hundred different last styles. Some day when I get time I will photograph and catalog them .All is not lost.
Larry Waller
Walrus Shoe & Leather Co.
tmattimore

Re: One "Last" Question

#40 Post by tmattimore »

The last time I talked to JV they told me I could not have the models back as they were property to themselves. They did offer to turn new lasts on the models but prefered that I order in quantities of one gross (a run). They also claimed that they could not turn any lasts from an old run of JV lasts that I use every day because the only model they had was a 5EEEE and I would need to pay model charges to get copies of a public last. I wonder why they call it compulast they seem to prefer wontdoitlast.
Tmattimore
cmw
3
3
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Chris
Location: copenhagen, denmark
Been Liked: 1 time

Re: One "Last" Question

#41 Post by cmw »

Anybody

Would somebody please describe what it means to digitize a last. I admit that I have nooooo formal knowlegde in this area.

I'm just trying to learn something so any thing said/written would be great.

CW
btippit

Re: One "Last" Question

#42 Post by btippit »

Chris,

When a last is turned in a conventional lathe, the model rotates and is traced by a wheel that looks somewhat like an inline skate wheel. It rolls along the model and a separate arm on the lathe that contains cup cutters follows that path, cutting the block to copy the model. This arm can be adjusted so that you can cut different sizes that are proportionally the same shape. However, the conventional lathe is limited so that you can only turn 3 or 4 sizes away from the model before you start to drastically distort the shape of the last. Even with that distortion, 4 sizes is generally the maximum the machine can be adjusted. Thus, you need to make "accommodation" models every 3 sizes to extend the size run you are capable of turning.

There are basically two kinds of digitations processes. One, like the Compu-Last method I used at TLW uses the same contact method of a wheel but instead of having an arm with cutters follow the wheel, three digital encoders are attached that record, very precisely, the X, Y, and Z coordinates of the wheel at various locations along the path as the model is traced. Literally thousands of points are defined. Then, using special grading software, you can redefine those points and turn any size last with no distortion. Your only limitations are the physical length and width of the area you would put the block you are cutting into. There is no tool path distortion because the cutting is done using direct drive servo motors as opposed to "broken arm" tracing.

The way lasts are digitized on our new system is by the use of 2 cameras and 5 laser beams. The last is mounted upright it a "black box". It rotates and the lasers project onto the last and are captured by the two cameras. The entire last is digitized with even more points than were collected in the old contact method. This file can then be graded in our software to any size but much more than that, you can grade specific areas while holding others to their original measurements, adjust heel heights and toe springs, "cut" toes off one digitation and put them onto another for style changes, and do virtually anything that the model maker can do on the bench. In addition, the surface of the last can be flattened to get the shell for pattern design and grading or you can design the shoe or boot in 3D, directly on the last. You can create soles from the bottom surface of the last as well. When you grade the last, you can output the data to any of the CNC last making systems out there (Compu-Last, Newlast, Forma, etc.) or to any CNC milling machine or rapid prototype machine (such as 3D printers or Stereo Lithography machines).

I hope that gives a basic idea of what can be done. Just for grins, even though I'm not getting back into the last business, maybe I'll get a booth at the Round-Up and bring my PC just to show what the system does. I miss the Round-Up (Hell, I miss it all) but I won't come to Wichita Falls unless they have Frito Pies, like they had in Brownwood. Now THAT was some good eatin'!

Bill
cmw
3
3
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Chris
Location: copenhagen, denmark
Been Liked: 1 time

Re: One "Last" Question

#43 Post by cmw »

Bill

Thank you very much for the info.
Have a nice wk-end when you get that far.

CW
shoestring

Re: One "Last" Question

#44 Post by shoestring »

Lasting Problem:I'am starting to last these sandles and now I've encountered a problem.I'am using 9/8 clinching nails to get the upper around the last which seems to be working now that I have gotten to the heel trouble begans reason the last has a metal heel plate which causes the nail to clench.How do I handle that?Should I use a smaller tack which would stay in the heel and become part of the insole or what.Oh!!!!!and while I'am at it where can I order a good pair of lasting pliers.


Ed
User avatar
sorrell
6
6
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:00 pm
Full Name: Lisa Sorrell
Location: Guthrie, OK
Been Liked: 10 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#45 Post by sorrell »

I just purchased about 60 pair of old wooden lasts. They're very pretty lasts with sharp toes. The only identifying mark is a Canadian maple leaf. I haven't gone through all of them yet, but the ones I've seen are dated early 60's. Does anyone know anything about the last company who made them?

Lisa
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#46 Post by dw »

Ed,

I'm not a shoemaker, although I have made shoes. And I never use lasts that have bottom plates...but from what I know, I think you have already hit on the answer. The bottom plate is there to clinch tacks--specifically lasting tacks--it's intentional. And on boots and shoes that I've seen and repaired, that were made using lasts having bottom plates, the tacks were left in...clinched on the inside, grain surface, of the insole. That's the standard procedure with bottom plates.

You can buy standard, cut steel, lasting tacks and you can even get brass lasting tacks. They are usually designated by the ounce, with half ounce tacks being a little less than a quarter inch long (if memory serves) and 3 ounce tacks being a little more than a half inch long. A one ounce lasting tack would probably be just about right but even if not, still 100% better than the 9/8 clinching nails.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
relferink

Re: One "Last" Question

#47 Post by relferink »

Ed,

I always take the plates off, to the best of my knowledge they are used in the industry to keep the lines of the last sharp. If you use the same lasts to make thousands of shoes and they get thrown around the line around the toe and heel loses it sharp, crisp line. The steel bottom plate helps to preserve this line. I find they come of easy enough and a scrap piece of shoulder in the thickness will fill it in very nicely. Unless you mean for the nails to stay in the shoe I would prefer to pull them out. This way you prevent a nail from pinching the foot it it's not fully clinched. Some industrial machines put the upper on the last and clinch the heel but there are better ways to secure the upper to the insole.

For the lasting pliers try a place like frankford leather in Philly. On line http://www.eurointl.com has a picture catalog. I believe I've seen them there.

Rob
paul
8
8
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 14 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#48 Post by paul »

I need a last lesson.

Subject: Short heel measure

It would seem I've been lucky so far, fitwise I mean. 'Cause it seems like the more I learn, the more there is to learn. I've got a pair ready to make insoles for, last and finish, yet the short heel measure on the foot is almost a whole derned inch less than the SH measure on the closest last I have! Do I need a different model? One with a lower instep? Or what?

DW, I've measured the SH on the last the way you indicate in your American Tradition tutorial. So I think I'm on there. I've looked at the Measurement Chart for Lasts you've included, but the SH measure is lacking on the chart for the models you mention. So no confirmation there.

Maybe I should even remeasure the guy. The customer is almost right on for 11D in model TLW0025, but the SH is 7/8" smaller. What should I do?

I've gone back and compared SH measurements on the Light Brown Water Buffs I just finished and on that one the foot popped into the boot just right. That SH on the last was 1/2" greater than the foot! What kind of conclusion does that lead me to? How much can one vary from the absolute?

PK
shane
2
2
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:05 pm
Full Name: shane deeter
Location: La Sal, Utah, USA
Been Liked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#49 Post by shane »

Paul,
I know you aren't going to like my answer, but this is what I do when I get into this problem. Go to a 11 B or smaller until your SH is correct then build the rest of the last up until it is right. Your only other choice is to make him buy the last and grind down the instep. I hope this helps.
Shane
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: One "Last" Question

#50 Post by dw »

Paul,

I think Shane is correct. That's the first thing I'd do. Nine times out of ten if the SH on the last is bigger than the SH on the foot, you've chosen too wide a last. Yes, the forepart may be (mostly) right on the money, but the heel will be too wide. The SH is the only measurement we have that addresses the backpart of the foot and the backpart of the last. A last doesn't begin or end at the instep. A person can have a very wide forepart and a very narrow heel. In fact, that is one of the most common configurations that we see as custom makers...the people who can't get a good fit because their heels slip so badly.

I generally find with closer inspection that if the SH on the last is too big, the high instep will also be a bit too big. It's one sure indicator...but then you'd expect it to be that way if you really think about it. It's also the reason I insist on a high as well as a low instep measurement. Many, including lastmakers, don't recognize the high instep measurement, as distinctive from the low instep measurement, anymore. But they are different, are distinct and can yield valuable information about the foot as a whole if we continue to regard them as such.

Also a pedographic imprint is invaluable because it will tell you how wide the "heel" of the foot is...that in turn will tell you how wide the heel seat of the last should be, and that in turn, will affect the SH.

If you are still getting tIf you are still getting these kinds of discrepancies after accepting the concept of going to a narrower last and building it up, then you probably need to look at some way to make the way that you measure, and where you place those measurements on the last correspond with the way you want a boot to fit. Everyone has to go through this. It's trial and error. But just as an example...the measuring "device" that you use check measurement on a last is every bit as important as the way you measure the short heel and how you place, or check, that measurement on the last. I use a tape measure on the foot and a string on the last. One small detail of a multitude that can affect your results.

On occasion...very rare occasions...you will indeed need to grind down the instep a bit. Or narrow the cone a bit. A close examination of the pedograph and the measurements...and the foot...will almost always indicate, unmistakably, which lasts require that treatment and which do not. But, in my view, grinding the last is a last resort and should not be approached casually or by beginners. If nothing else, years down the road, when you've gained a bit more experience and insight into the foot and the foot/last relationship, you'll look at all the lasts that you ground down and realize that all you have done is generate a bunch of firewood.

And in fact, building up lasts will teach you far more about lasts...and feet, and boots, and how they all relate...than grinding them down.

Of course that's just one opinion, but you did say you were using my methods and if you let yourself be pulled this way and then that way by all the contrary opinions out there, you'll just end up confused.

Finally, I don't know what last model you are using...you don't say...but the fact that you ask about going to a last with a lower instep, suggests that you are not using the models that I recommend in my book. Or maybe you are...and they certainly are not the only good, pretty, or acceptable lasts that have ever been made. But for anyone, yourself included, who is reading this, it is of the utmost importance to realize that I have said over and over again that the charts, lasts, and my methods are linked (as are the patterns and assembly techniques). Once you understand what I'm doing in the book...and once you start applying it with the proper techniques and tools (read lasts), the technique is as close to guaranteed to work as can ever be approached in this business. The rest in experience, intuition and a bit of magic.

Hope this helps....

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Post Reply