Denise, yes I do have access to a 3D imaging camera . At the moment, I am not looking to duplicating the last, just merely studying it in my off time from work purely because of curiosity. I am also looking to learn how to make minimalistic footwear (light weight, zero drop between heel and forefoot, moccasin style), and am on a hunt for books that will get me on the right track.
D.A.S, thank you for the information on the last. Could you elaborate on the "twist in the bottom plane of the Munson last"? I do not recall this being mentioned in the 1912 book. Dr. Edward Munson does mention about the compromise wrt to incorportating lesser swing than he intended.
Also, can you point me to towards some reading material on the navy last? Munson mentions this in his book but I have been unsuccessful in finding additional references (except yours on HCC). I posted a few photos on the "One last question" thread showing the inflare differences between the Munson and the Navy lasts, but I would LOVE to see a photo coiomparing the last bottoms (or insoles) of Munson/Navy lasts. If you have these lasts at hand, can I bother you for a couple photos, please?
It is also good to know that I won't be infringing any IP if I ever want to duplicate the Munson on the Navy lasts.
To those who are interested in a copy of this book, you can download it from my dropbox here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6244437/The%20soldier%27s%20foot%20and%20the%20military% 20shoe%20-%20Edward%20Lyman%20Munson-1912.pdf
One "Last" Question
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das
- Seanchaidh
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Re: One "Last" Question
Srivatsan,
Munson did not discuss plantar "twist" (slight medial upward elevation at the feather-line in the seat, independent of the plane across the forepart--see my posts on this elsewhere)--it was just my observation--Munson lasts have little/no up "twist".
Have never found any written material on the "US NAVY" last(s). My guess is the US Navy Yard R&D Center in Washington, D.C. might be a good place to start looking. But I have no idea where they'd stash any surviving c.1900-25 R & D files.
No digi-photo capabilities here, sorry. Going by bottom papers (precise cardboard insole patterns), I strike a center-line heel to toe (center to center using a center-finder), then a line across the joints of the bottom paper at the widest points, measure the angle where they intersect in degrees, and sort my last shapes by degrees of "swing" accordingly as: "inflare", "neutral", and "outflare". Fast, simple, low-tech, accurate, and effective. The US NAVY last has a tiny bit more forepart inflare "swing" than a Munson does (actually the USN is the benchmark maximum inflare I've ever recorded for any production last), while a Munson is just more "natural", footprint-like in its bottom shape, rather than a mechanically "swung" standard shape.
Munson did not discuss plantar "twist" (slight medial upward elevation at the feather-line in the seat, independent of the plane across the forepart--see my posts on this elsewhere)--it was just my observation--Munson lasts have little/no up "twist".
Have never found any written material on the "US NAVY" last(s). My guess is the US Navy Yard R&D Center in Washington, D.C. might be a good place to start looking. But I have no idea where they'd stash any surviving c.1900-25 R & D files.
No digi-photo capabilities here, sorry. Going by bottom papers (precise cardboard insole patterns), I strike a center-line heel to toe (center to center using a center-finder), then a line across the joints of the bottom paper at the widest points, measure the angle where they intersect in degrees, and sort my last shapes by degrees of "swing" accordingly as: "inflare", "neutral", and "outflare". Fast, simple, low-tech, accurate, and effective. The US NAVY last has a tiny bit more forepart inflare "swing" than a Munson does (actually the USN is the benchmark maximum inflare I've ever recorded for any production last), while a Munson is just more "natural", footprint-like in its bottom shape, rather than a mechanically "swung" standard shape.
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Sri,
Something I just learned recently--Jones and Vining (lastmakers in Walnut Ridge, Arkansas) has both the Munson and the USN last on file. And if there is no IP on them, it should be easy to order a pair or three or even a "run."
I'd buy some bottom papers first--bracketing what you think your size is--then simply order.
I'd post the address but I'm not at the shop right now and it isn't hand (do a search?)
That said, I think the phone number is: (870) 886-6621...ask for Spencer.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]
Something I just learned recently--Jones and Vining (lastmakers in Walnut Ridge, Arkansas) has both the Munson and the USN last on file. And if there is no IP on them, it should be easy to order a pair or three or even a "run."
I'd buy some bottom papers first--bracketing what you think your size is--then simply order.
I'd post the address but I'm not at the shop right now and it isn't hand (do a search?)
That said, I think the phone number is: (870) 886-6621...ask for Spencer.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]
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das
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Re: One "Last" Question
Additionally... be sure to tell Spenser the Munson JV has, as well as the US Navy, are both formerly "TLW" or "GFS" model numbers from Bill Tippit's former companies, The Last Word, or Global Footwear Solutions. That's were I got mine anyway.
And yes, ask for bottom papers first to study.
And yes, ask for bottom papers first to study.
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psrivats
Re: One "Last" Question
DAS and DW, thank you both so much for sharing the above information with me. I will talk to Jones and Vining and see what happens.
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psrivats
Re: One "Last" Question
I also have a very good friend who works in Washington DC for the naval research labs. I will talk to him and see if we can dig up any information on the USN last - I will share if I find anything interesting.
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elfn
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Re: One "Last" Question
I subscribe to an rss feed for Make magazine. In today's offerings is a solid printer inexpensive enough for personal use ($500). With this, it would be possible to print two-part lasts . . . as long as the halves didn't exceed the 6" cube size.
3D printer
I saw something a couple days ago on Make on taking 3D photos and something else yesterday on building a turntable for taking photos for 3D rendering.
3D printer
I saw something a couple days ago on Make on taking 3D photos and something else yesterday on building a turntable for taking photos for 3D rendering.
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dlskidmore
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Re: One "Last" Question
My cousin has one of those, although a smaller, homebuilt one. It's pretty neat. Hopefully the prebuilt one is less finicky, his requires knowledge of how it was built to operate it, as ambient conditions and the nature of the object being printed affect the melt rate and re-solidification rate of the plastic. Plastic is too liquid, you end up with a pile of goop. Plastic is too firm, the layers don't adhere to each other and you end up with a funny shaped string of plastic. If the prebuilt is as finicky, I'd rather build from a kit so I know how to fix it when it breaks.
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elfn
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Re: One "Last" Question
Totally off topic, but did you see the one that prints using chocolate? <grin>
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bobcann
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Re: One "Last" Question
Nori, LOVE the idea of printing chocolate!! Back on track - where/how does one get scans done? I have wide/short/high instep feet (not quite as short and wide as yours) and would love to have them scanned and "print" my own lasts. Also, any idea of cost of scans? Thanks, Robert
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elfn
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Re: One "Last" Question
I wish I knew. I've learned SO much. Until we can find someone to scan and print lasts for us, I can offer some advice on casting a last.
If your Achilles tendon isn't truly vertical below the ankle, you're better off not doing a weight bearing scan/moulding. Only put weight on your forefoot so the bones in the back of your foot can align correctly for the scan/casting. You don't need to stand on your toes, just take the weight off your heel enough for the tendon to become vertical. This is the biggest lesson I learned. I'm still struggling to get my foot bed right because I didn't do this one thing.
When casting your foot, alginate works really well. It's inexpensive, easy to use and readily available.
When creating the mold for the last, make sure it's a two or three part mold so you can make multiple lasts from a single mold. Alternately, you can make the mold out of latex rubber (expensive).
My son casts my lasts using a two part resin in latex rubber. The above is what I learned from his efforts. The downside is, the resin is really expensive. The material he used for casting the resin was as expensive. Picture me wincing. The education I got in the process . . . priceless.
If you go to http://norisstuff.com and click on Cordwaining, you'll see the posts (with pictures) of the process we used to create the lasts.
If your Achilles tendon isn't truly vertical below the ankle, you're better off not doing a weight bearing scan/moulding. Only put weight on your forefoot so the bones in the back of your foot can align correctly for the scan/casting. You don't need to stand on your toes, just take the weight off your heel enough for the tendon to become vertical. This is the biggest lesson I learned. I'm still struggling to get my foot bed right because I didn't do this one thing.
When casting your foot, alginate works really well. It's inexpensive, easy to use and readily available.
When creating the mold for the last, make sure it's a two or three part mold so you can make multiple lasts from a single mold. Alternately, you can make the mold out of latex rubber (expensive).
My son casts my lasts using a two part resin in latex rubber. The above is what I learned from his efforts. The downside is, the resin is really expensive. The material he used for casting the resin was as expensive. Picture me wincing. The education I got in the process . . . priceless.
If you go to http://norisstuff.com and click on Cordwaining, you'll see the posts (with pictures) of the process we used to create the lasts.
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dlskidmore
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Re: One "Last" Question
http://techshop.ws/tools_and_equipment.html
Look for a workshop membership near you, there are a few companies that do this, I forget the generic term. You may also find at such a workshop a CNC lathe which can cut your final digital image out in wood.
Look for a workshop membership near you, there are a few companies that do this, I forget the generic term. You may also find at such a workshop a CNC lathe which can cut your final digital image out in wood.
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elfn
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Re: One "Last" Question
I watched a video about techshop a couple weeks ago. The techshop highlighted in the video had a large 3D printer. It's definitely worth looking at.
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elfn
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Re: One "Last" Question
And unfortunately, the only locations are Detroit, Menlo Park, Raleigh Durham, San Fransisco and San Jose. But if you're close to one of those . . . go for it!
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dlskidmore
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Re: One "Last" Question
There are other companies that do the same.
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces
(Not all of these have 3D cameras, but it gives you a list to start calling around.)
Also search hackerspace on google maps centered on your location.
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces
(Not all of these have 3D cameras, but it gives you a list to start calling around.)
Also search hackerspace on google maps centered on your location.
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last_maker
Re: One "Last" Question
Informaion on casting feet:
There are two ways to cast feet and get an accurate "scan" of the foot
1. is a semi wieght baring method used for skaters boots. While an individal is sitting down A casting sock or plaster bandages are used to wrap the foot. The foot is aligned with the shin bone lined up with the center toe. Now this can create a problem if you stick to this hard and fast rule. Not everyone's foot is aligned with their second toe at times the foot my turn to one side or the other from the center metatarsals causing what shoe makers call an inflare or outflare.
Once the alignement is judged, and the individual is sitting down, than the foot is placed on a slanting board raised to about 1/2" the casting sock is placed on the individual and he/ she awaits for the sock to dry. the chain of hip, knee, center ankle, inside outside ankle bone is extremly important when casting in this position.
This is an excellent mail order method for hand modeled lasts. It is the casting method we use for those who want hand modeled lasts based on thier foot. We do not use the foot as the last, but it gives us referance to make a last for an individual.
2. The second kind of casting is the subtalor nuetral method. This is a non wieght baring casting method where the individual lies on a table, and the leg not begin cast is swung off the table at the knee. this aligns the hips into being straight. Then the center of the ankle joint complex is aligned with the shin bone and in turn the shin bone is aligned with the center of the top of the metatarsal bones. A 90 degree angle from the shin bone is accomplished by manipulation of the technition or student. Inflare and out flar do not impact this type of casting. This method is our preferred method for those who take classes from us, or are wanting a last and are present. The foot model made from this method, is not the last, but is a referance for making a last or is our startng block.
A plaster casting bandage is the preferred medium is used to capture the the full snap shot of the foot.
A multi part mould is only necessary if you plan on duplicating the foot model multiple times. If you do not plan to duplicate the model, than only a two part mould is ncessary.
Hey Nori, did you ever make a foot model or last out of the cast I made of your foot back in October?
Marlietta Schock
Lastmakingschool.com
There are two ways to cast feet and get an accurate "scan" of the foot
1. is a semi wieght baring method used for skaters boots. While an individal is sitting down A casting sock or plaster bandages are used to wrap the foot. The foot is aligned with the shin bone lined up with the center toe. Now this can create a problem if you stick to this hard and fast rule. Not everyone's foot is aligned with their second toe at times the foot my turn to one side or the other from the center metatarsals causing what shoe makers call an inflare or outflare.
Once the alignement is judged, and the individual is sitting down, than the foot is placed on a slanting board raised to about 1/2" the casting sock is placed on the individual and he/ she awaits for the sock to dry. the chain of hip, knee, center ankle, inside outside ankle bone is extremly important when casting in this position.
This is an excellent mail order method for hand modeled lasts. It is the casting method we use for those who want hand modeled lasts based on thier foot. We do not use the foot as the last, but it gives us referance to make a last for an individual.
2. The second kind of casting is the subtalor nuetral method. This is a non wieght baring casting method where the individual lies on a table, and the leg not begin cast is swung off the table at the knee. this aligns the hips into being straight. Then the center of the ankle joint complex is aligned with the shin bone and in turn the shin bone is aligned with the center of the top of the metatarsal bones. A 90 degree angle from the shin bone is accomplished by manipulation of the technition or student. Inflare and out flar do not impact this type of casting. This method is our preferred method for those who take classes from us, or are wanting a last and are present. The foot model made from this method, is not the last, but is a referance for making a last or is our startng block.
A plaster casting bandage is the preferred medium is used to capture the the full snap shot of the foot.
A multi part mould is only necessary if you plan on duplicating the foot model multiple times. If you do not plan to duplicate the model, than only a two part mould is ncessary.
Hey Nori, did you ever make a foot model or last out of the cast I made of your foot back in October?
Marlietta Schock
Lastmakingschool.com
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psrivats
Re: One "Last" Question
DW, Al: short update
I contacted Spencer per your recommendation and it seems that they are not able to locate the Navy last [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img] He asked me if I had a picture of the Navy last and of course I did not. However, I did have a barrage of the USN roughout boots made on this last and he said that may be helpful. I am hoping that they find a pair stored somewhere.
On the other hand, they do have the Munson last, so atleast that much is good (am waiting to get bottom papers)
I contacted Spencer per your recommendation and it seems that they are not able to locate the Navy last [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img] He asked me if I had a picture of the Navy last and of course I did not. However, I did have a barrage of the USN roughout boots made on this last and he said that may be helpful. I am hoping that they find a pair stored somewhere.
On the other hand, they do have the Munson last, so atleast that much is good (am waiting to get bottom papers)
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bill_harris
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Re: One "Last" Question
I have pretty complete sets of the U.S.NAVY dress shoe lasts and the U.S.MIL-5 boot lasts. The MIL-5 lasts have M.L.C. stamped on the other side. Would consider putting them up for adoption to a good home.
Bill Harris
Bill Harris
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psrivats
Re: One "Last" Question
William, thank you a ton for those photos -- it is even hard to find pics of the navy last these days.
I sent you an email (and a PM for good measure).
I sent you an email (and a PM for good measure).
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dlskidmore
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- Full Name: Denise Skidmore
- Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Re: One "Last" Question
These lasts are rather primitive molds of my own foot. The shoe is simple felt. I have a stiff layer of plastic just under the insole A) to keep my needle from going into my soft last material and B) to shape the shoe to be a bit less round on the bottom, which I think was a problem with gluing the sole on a previous pair.
The right shoe came out just fine, but the left shows a definite twist in the last. That foot is the one where I broke the big toe years ago, and I know I don't use it as much as it's designed to do.
Should I:
A) re-make this last with a more conscious effort to hold down that big toe?
B) add material to the last to flatten out the sole but give the toe room to bend upwards as it wants to?
C) just sew it up as it is, since this is an honest representation of the foot in question?
The right shoe came out just fine, but the left shows a definite twist in the last. That foot is the one where I broke the big toe years ago, and I know I don't use it as much as it's designed to do.
Should I:
A) re-make this last with a more conscious effort to hold down that big toe?
B) add material to the last to flatten out the sole but give the toe room to bend upwards as it wants to?
C) just sew it up as it is, since this is an honest representation of the foot in question?
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1947redhed
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Re: One "Last" Question
I'd make this first pair as is so you have a base line for future modifications. When you do change things, do just one thing at a time and measure and make notes. If you change several things at once, you'll never really know what works or doesn't. Felt is pretty forgiving, so your wayward toe will probably work out fine. To correct your soling problem, you could sew on a welt, cement on a midsole, stitch those together and then put on an outsole. What are the lasts made of besides tape? If they're squishy, that is one reason why your soles are coming undone, IMO, because you need a really a firm foundation to wail on when you're doing a bond with all-purpose cement. I'm currrently working on a similar problem, prototyping an outdoor soling for a knitted and felted apres ski boot. No pictures yet. Your beading is charming.
Georgene
Georgene
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dlskidmore
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Re: One "Last" Question
The last is just tape over a shopping bag, stuffed with shredded paper. It's packed pretty firmly, but is a bit squishy. I wouldn't trust them to stretch leather, but the felt is as you say, more forgiving. I usually just make patterns on the last, this is the first time I've sewn on one.
All the shoes I make are highly flexible, I just fold them flat and put them between cinder blocks for the glue press stage. My first shoe making mentor parks his truck on them for gluing. This has worked fine so far for leather soling repairs, but the first attempt at rubber soles over leather didn't go as well. This time I'm also going to try some suggestions to use a primer before applying the glue.
I'm warming up to the welt idea, it seems a much firmer construction for a replaceable sole than glue. A sewn attachment would also be less likely to delaminate the felt under stress. I'm slowly moving from an Indian moccasin construction. I'm concerned that an insole, mid-sole, and out-sole construction will be too thick, I walk much better when I can feel the ground, but I suppose I could use similar construction with thinner layers than I see you guys using. My thickest leather shoes are about 2mm, my thickest rubber is 4 mm. These will probably be thicker, but they're dress shoes, not walking shoes.
All the shoes I make are highly flexible, I just fold them flat and put them between cinder blocks for the glue press stage. My first shoe making mentor parks his truck on them for gluing. This has worked fine so far for leather soling repairs, but the first attempt at rubber soles over leather didn't go as well. This time I'm also going to try some suggestions to use a primer before applying the glue.
I'm warming up to the welt idea, it seems a much firmer construction for a replaceable sole than glue. A sewn attachment would also be less likely to delaminate the felt under stress. I'm slowly moving from an Indian moccasin construction. I'm concerned that an insole, mid-sole, and out-sole construction will be too thick, I walk much better when I can feel the ground, but I suppose I could use similar construction with thinner layers than I see you guys using. My thickest leather shoes are about 2mm, my thickest rubber is 4 mm. These will probably be thicker, but they're dress shoes, not walking shoes.
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elfn
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Re: One "Last" Question
I've been struggling to construct a mold for the orthotic I need to build into my next pair of shoes. I can use the heat moldable cork for the othortic, it's getting the press mold built that's holding me up. I'm not spending a lot of time doing but a huge amount of time thinking. I've learned I have to give my brain the problem and leave it alone to work it through. The answer will come. I feel I'm getting closer.
I am going to try Permastone for the master mold for shaping the orthotic. I want a hinged press into which I can put the heated cork for shaping. I've got one of the positives done, the most critical one for the leg with the toasted ankle. The other I've got ready to go, I just need to demold it.
I ran into something called Shapelock on the Maker forum today and thought it would also be a good product to use as an orthotic. I need to get a sack and play with it. The nice thing about shapelock is you can heat it up and reuse it. I wonder how it would be as a last?
Shapelock
I am going to try Permastone for the master mold for shaping the orthotic. I want a hinged press into which I can put the heated cork for shaping. I've got one of the positives done, the most critical one for the leg with the toasted ankle. The other I've got ready to go, I just need to demold it.
I ran into something called Shapelock on the Maker forum today and thought it would also be a good product to use as an orthotic. I need to get a sack and play with it. The nice thing about shapelock is you can heat it up and reuse it. I wonder how it would be as a last?
Shapelock
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johnl
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Re: One "Last" Question
Nori, I am about as far away as you can get from knowing much of anything about this, but I remember seeing a video of a guy making a pair of ortotic shoes. It has probably been 10 years or better, so my memory is not very good, and I might miss something etc.
Using plaster bandages he made a casting of the foot. Then he made a plaster of paris "last", then molded the toe out etc.
One the bottom, he affixed a thin layer of cork. Then he glue another then layer of cork to that, shaping as he went. When finished he had 4-6 layers of thin cork, each glued to the next, and shaped to the botom of the last. This "orthotic" held its shape due to each layer being slightly bigger than the one before, and glued to it.
Then the othotic was removed from the Plaster last, and placed as an insert into the shoe.
Sorry, best I can remember. I am sure that there are many, many folk here that can provide much better insite and info
JohnL
Using plaster bandages he made a casting of the foot. Then he made a plaster of paris "last", then molded the toe out etc.
One the bottom, he affixed a thin layer of cork. Then he glue another then layer of cork to that, shaping as he went. When finished he had 4-6 layers of thin cork, each glued to the next, and shaped to the botom of the last. This "orthotic" held its shape due to each layer being slightly bigger than the one before, and glued to it.
Then the othotic was removed from the Plaster last, and placed as an insert into the shoe.
Sorry, best I can remember. I am sure that there are many, many folk here that can provide much better insite and info
JohnL
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elfn
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Re: One "Last" Question
For a one off, it's great, but when I want to do a bunch of different shoes, the orthotic is going to be identically shaped for all. My goal is to streamline the process. With a press I can press the orthotic and add it to the shoe under construction.
With the shoes I'm wearing now I did the shaping in place on the last, only I did it right on the shoe between lining and shaper/midsole during construction. Doing it that way gets me something that's close to perfect, but just not quite there. And it's time consuming and tedious and the orthotic is not guaranteed to be the same very time.
I may be approaching this the wrong way, but it seems it will be the faster way in the long run. All the orthotics will be identical because they're all made in the same press which will take the stress off my ankle when switching between shoes. It will take a little bit of testing to see how many ounces of the moldable cork I'll need to put in the press to get optimal results, but what I stand on will always be the same and that's, I think, my goal.
Does that make sense?
With the shoes I'm wearing now I did the shaping in place on the last, only I did it right on the shoe between lining and shaper/midsole during construction. Doing it that way gets me something that's close to perfect, but just not quite there. And it's time consuming and tedious and the orthotic is not guaranteed to be the same very time.
I may be approaching this the wrong way, but it seems it will be the faster way in the long run. All the orthotics will be identical because they're all made in the same press which will take the stress off my ankle when switching between shoes. It will take a little bit of testing to see how many ounces of the moldable cork I'll need to put in the press to get optimal results, but what I stand on will always be the same and that's, I think, my goal.
Does that make sense?