One "Last" Question

[romango]

The Koleff method aligns it right down the center line. Looking at a few last on hand, it seems to tip very slightly to the medial side when moving from the back center toward the front.

[kemosabi]

OK. So it sounds like my guess from last post is pretty close... maybe favor the medial a bit more at the front.

Lucchese talks about a "twisted cone" last. What does this mean?

[lancepryor]

Nat:

In general, it looks good. However, a few comments. The cone looks like it turns up too early -- I think it would leave you with a lot of wood to remove above the joint. I don't have Koleff handy, but in reviewing my own last profile per Koleff, the point of inflection of the vamp curve seems to be just about right above the inside joint. The 'joint height' is 1/5 of the joint measurement and is basically above the mid-point of the inside and outside joints.

Your toe profile also seems too high, to my eye. Again per Koleff, the toe height is 1/2 of the joint height, then less 5mm.

A couple other things he does: the cone is derived from the S/H measurement, 45% of the S/H, located at a 37 degree included angle from the ground @ the last front to the heel point.

And, I would suggest line B might be better served being 5 mm longer than line A. And more of a corner at the back bottom of the heel, not such a rounded profile.

Finally, if you are doing this for your own feet, I would place the joints for the profile based on your actual tracing, rather than Sabbage's sectionizer.

Hope that helps.

Lance

[kemosabi]

Lance,
Thank you for good info.

I'm not sure I understand how the cone is derived based on your description.
I'll post an image of my guess and maybe you can tell me if it's right or not?

-Nat

[kemosabi]

OK. I tried drawing all my guesses and it doesn't seem like any of them are correct.
Maybe it's because I'm still working with proportions instead of my actual measurements.

Is this close?

13554.jpg

Thanks for your patience...
-Nat

[lancepryor]

Nat:

Sorry about the confusion -- the heel point is the bottom of the heel; in your drawing, it would be a the 'Z-1' location (2 boxes equaling 1 division, as in the x axis).

So, draw a line from 12-0 (i.e. the ground point beneath the end of the toe) to the heel point (Z-1). Then, take a 37 degree angle to this, and draw a line from the heel along this angle. Measure along this line from the heel point a distance of 45% of your short heel measurement (as taken from your foot, the SH goes around the bottom of your heel and up to where the foot meets the leg). It is this point that the cone should pass through. Connect this point to the joint point (as defined in my earlier post), and then blend for a continuous curve.

Hope that all makes sense.

Lance

[kemosabi]

I think I got it...
Note: the joint measures are just a guess since I haven't plugged in real measurements yet.

13556.jpg

Is this how it goes?
-Nat

[romango]

Ned,

By the way. You generate the last profile based on the Koleff method using my shoe pattern generator here: http://www.romangoshoes.com/shoeweb/home.do

Select Styles->Last Profile

[kemosabi]

Rick,
Thanks for the reminder.
I checked this out awhile back, but at that point I didn't see you had a last profile pattern too.

-Nat

[lancepryor]

Nat:

Yes, that looks correct. However, Koleff extends the cone another 5% of the SH measurement past the point where the 37 degree line is -- i.e. the point you show as 'the top of cone' is in fact extended a bit up and to the right. Also , IIRC, Koleff's toe height is measured vertically up from the front of the last, not at an angle as you have it. That point is connected to the joint point, then the toe curve is drawn in by eye. Next, and this was my error, the joint line is drawn perpendicular to a line from the joint to the heel point, not perpendicular to the ground. Finally, I think you may want the heel seat to be flatter (parallel to the ground), rather than pitched from front to rear as you have it drawn. If you look at Rick's last profile directions, it gives all the key lines, etc.

Regarding the 'island' and the cone shape, I would say the 'z' rotation is better. Look at your foot -- most likely the highest point down the front of your foot is where the tendon runs down the foot to your big toe joint (flex your toes up and you can see the tendon). I would say this is where you want the cone to line up with. Also, you want the center of the cone to align with the center front of the island, which therefore implies that the island needs to be angled medially relative to the rear foot.

Look forward to seeing the final results.

Lance

(Message edited by lancepryor on April 06, 2011)

[kemosabi]

Great feedback Lance.
I'll take some time to process this.

Thx,
-Nat

[dw]

Just a quick note...

I'm not sure where the term "island" comes from. One of the modelmakers I had occasion to consult over the years referred to this part of the last as the "comb."

And when I have used "comb" in discussions with Bill Tippit as well as Jones and Vining they have never questioned my usage.

I may be totally in the dark here...further feedback is welcome...or maybe it's an English term.

But island" doesn't seem congruent...doesn't seem like it fits in with all the other terminology that refers to the last.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

The first time i noticed the "comb" is referred to as "island" was on this site,Every other English text i read "comb" was used which reminds me of a suggestion i made for the need of a glossary/dictionary of terms used in the boot and shoe making as we know it ,something like Wikipedia which allows people to post their input/definitions will be a start,but than again it is probably easier said than done. I also wonder how the word "island" came to mean comb,Maybe lance will tell us.

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Well, it may Nat who first used "island" and lance just picked up on it for convenience sake. It's not important, in my book however.

What is important is that 1) we have a reputation to live up to in being and talking like professionals and 2) that we need to not make up terminology if we want to communicate effectively.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[kemosabi]

DW and all,
I picked up the term from this site.
As I understand it; "island" refers to the flat area at the top rear of the last that holds the thimble. The comb starts where the island ends (on my drawing from 4/6, this is labeled as "Top of Cone",) and extends forward down the instep to the joint line.
Another way of saying this; On a jointed last, the top of the last behind the joint would be the island. Top of the last forward, would be the cone.

Is this incorrect?

BTW: I agree with Nasser's suggestion for a glossary.

Regards,
-Nat

[dw]

Nat,

The comb starts where the island ends (on my drawing from 4/6, this is labeled as "Top of Cone",) and extends forward down the instep to the joint line.

This is the "cone"

Another way of saying this; On a jointed last, the top of the last behind the joint would be the island.

This is the "comb"

Top of the last forward, would be the cone.

This is correct.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[kemosabi]

_________________________________________
quote:

The comb starts where the island ends...
_____________________________________________

Shoot! I originally meant to say "Cone".
Anyway; I see your point DW. Sounds like most people call the top rear of last the comb and the term "island" may cause confusion.

-Nat

[elfn]

I've been wearing my second pair of fitters for about a month. I've got more shoes in the works, just haven't gotten them finished.

I'm really pleased to have the fitters to wear. They aren't attractive, and I'm sure most here on the list would throw rocks at them, but they are doing what I need them to do. They are comfortable, flexible, supportive and keep my feet dry if I get into wet grass. I walked to the mail box (1000 feet away) and went through ankle deep wet grass and still had dry feet when I got back to the house. That's a huge plus.

My next pair won't be any more attractive but in a different, more rugged way. Taking y'all's advice, I narrowed the ankle of my lasts. I also raised the height of the pattern/opening at the front/top of the last to get lacing up past the part of my arch that's so sensitive.

I'm still testing to see what works and what doesn't (design AND technique). I'm working with a lot of variety in leather . . . thick to thin, goat, kangaroo, bison, cow . . . I'm learning lots and having a good time.

At this point I'm thrilled to have comfortable shoes to run around in while outside. That's progress.

Nori

[last_maker]

D.W.

Island refers to the top of the comb area whereas the comb refers to the side of the the last that is hollowed out and works in tandum with the heel curve. The comb...The side of the island is where you hollow out the last that makes it look like this /\ . The top of that triangle is the island. While shaping the last, it is called "clipping the last" Al and I had a discussion about clipping the last two pages ago in this section "one last question" in December. He had a really good schollarly remarks about it. I highly recomend it for anyone learning to shape a last. I belive when speaking with lastmakers when refering to the "comb" area or the "island" area or clipping the last depending on what you say after you mention such a term they will understand what you are saying... well that is my two bits.

Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

[sepulverture]

I am not entirely sure if this is being posted in the right area. If it is the wrong area then please advise, if not then I am greatly looking forward to having this question answered.

It seems that I have forgotten how to measure/calculate the SLL so I can make a mean forme. I have done so a few times, but the last time I did so was last year and I can't seem to find the reference material I was using before to make the calculation.

It should be mentioned that I am currently living in China, and that the size of the last I am using does not in fact correspond with the number written on it. My foot size is too large for normal lasts produced here, so they had to custom make one for me and it doesn't have the right number on it. Also I am making a pair of shoes for someone else, and the lasts I had purchased for her lack sizing information.

Please advise.

Thank you and kind regards.

(Message edited by Sepulverture on May 25, 2011)

[das]

Nat,

============================
"What was important to last design during the 1860's thru 1870's" (bearing in mind that machine production hadn't had it's impact on lasts that we see today which I assume also means that lasts were designed for feet vs. machines).

IOW: if it was possible to erase the impact of machine manufacturing on last design and only focus on anatomically correct shape, also providing for correct draft and leather movement (flex) in the finished product; What would these lasts look like? Munson maybe? Seems like his quest and mine are similar as he too was disillusioned about anatomically incorrect last shape.
==========================

IMO nothing magical about that one decade--the important thing is the different approaches, between a custom last versus a production last, and both were made at all periods of history. Start with the foot, not any one decade's notions of style or lastmaking--timelessness is the key. Actually, no, start with the style of footwear you want to make: a pull-on boot, a low shoe, high/low heel, toe-shape, etc., and make the last, to the foot, for that.

For all their comfort, Munson lasts are one set style, designed for making combat boots on. I guess you could do worse than to butcher-up some Munsons into whatever toe shape you like, preserving their swung shape and excellent bottom curves. Munson lasts were, by his own admission, not "ideal" according to nature, because they were still not "inflare" enough, he thought, to be anatomically correct, because most soldiers already had some degree of bunion. Munson lasts also had to go through machine-lasting and seat-nailing machines, as part of the Goodyear welted (mass) production. As great a fitter as they are, Munsons were a compromise even in 1914!

I think you'd do better looking at classic bespoke lasts for hand-sewn, Golding, et al. My two cents is:

1) Start with the person's foot (yours)
2) Respect the bottom shape, inflare, outflare, neutral
3) Crest of instep cone follows the first met group right down to the joint ("inside cone"]
4) Radiused feather-line around heel-seat and waist (convex bottom under heel--not flat)
5) A natural amount of "twist" in the heel-seat, higher medially than laterally
6) Thin, concave cuboid area of last to clip close

When you handle a good last with your eyes closed, the closer the back-part feels like a wooden foot sculpture the better--no sharp edges, flat spots, or straight lines on a human foot. The more wildly anatomical you make the last, however, the more difficulties you'll have making a satisfactory boot or shoe on it. And nobody wants their shoes to look just like there feet, so some compromises are necessary.

[gshoes]

A last makers question. Can someone tell me, when a last maker carves his last for preparation of a run being created, Does he himself carve a left and then a right or does a machine or jig transpose the left to a right. I am just curious. I am making tiny little wooden lasts and I see how difficult it is to make them match.

13698.jpg

[frank_jones]

Geraldine Rabey

The lathe that lastmakers use is a copying lathe. It has three spindles. The model is mounted in one. The other two have blocks or wood (or plastic) to produce the copies.

The lathe takes the shape of the model and produces another identical copy on the second spindle. At the same time, the lathe produces a mirror copy of the model on the third spindle

So a left and right foot are produced at the same time.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

[gshoes]

Frank Jones,

Thank you so much for that wonderfully clear explanation. That would be a nice machine to have. I have been using little calipers and comparing and sanding back and forth. Unbelievably fascinated process for me. Placing them sole to sole, toe to toe, comparing the negative space in between. After a while what used to look good and close is revealed to be way off. It is a process that really draws you into it. In the end you have a little work of art. I guess that before the lathe was created they must have done it like me.

13700.jpg

[last_maker]

Geri,

I hand make all my lasts and teach others to do the same. For the most part, a good cutting tool, a good draft of the last profile and sole shape and and good eye can guide you. However, sometimes, appropriate tools can help too.

Here are the following tools I use during fine tuning my lasts:


use a 37" curve template
http://www.vansantent.com/welding_accessories/contour_gauges.html

to help me with forming the undersole area

12" Contour Gauge with sliding pins and 6" countour gage with sliding pins to help with the side profiles

http://www.vansantent.com/welding_accessories/contour_gauges.html

spring calipers:
> http://www.waresdirect.com/products/Commercial-Products/Brown-Sharpe-Precision/O utside-Flatlegs205320?trackURL=froogle

to help with depth measurments such as to box depth and the hight of the instep and the like.

Calipar Gauge/Center Finder

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=25154&filter=calipar%20gage%2Fcenter%20f inder

flexible ruler< http://www.jerrysartarama.com/discount-art-supplies/drafting-supplies/flexible-c urves.htm?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping

Shoe sizing stick
http://www.shoestuffandshoes.com/browse.cfm/ritz-shoe-size-stick/4,1101.html

To insure both sides are the same.

Utlimately, however, the fitter shoe will tell you where to adjust. And not all feet have the same shape on both sides.

It is a bit unorthodox but I always instruct new and beginning last makers to utilize a firm clay for thier first to 20 tries of last making. You use similar tools but the clay is more forgiving in that it is an additive and removing process where the wood is only a removing process. If you actually get a last pair that you like and if it is made from a firm clay such as lastmakers clay, You can always mould it and pour plastic into your mould and not have a wooden last but a plastic one. Not as pretty as wood, but will work.

I recomend this way, because your hands have the ability to have muscle memory like typing. thus, getting the feel of modeling is more important than understanding the wood. Once you get the feel for modeling, than transfering to wood becomes easier. However, many have mastered wood modeling from the start with no problem. So I am not advocating that you only use clay, but it might help your hands become more attuned to modeling lasts.


By the way, Your lasts look good. It appears the transition from the heel seat to the arch area is a bit angular,if these lasts are for you, I would use the curve template use a 37" curve template
http://www.vansantent.com/welding_accessories/contour_gauges.html and place it against your arch and match your arch with it, then compare it to the last your making. See if the angles are what your eye likes. The arch depth will change with the position of your foot, so it would be best to take this template impression with your foot in it's intended position. Again, you are not trying to copy the foot, but having the comparison of the template to the underside of your current last, might give you further information to shaping or leaving the underside alone.
but again the fitter will tell you what you need to know.

Well that is my two cents if it makes andy sence.

I'd give it a go and use these lastsand make a fitter and see how they fits. then make the adjustments to the last accordingly.


Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com