One "Last" Question

[andre]

Ok,
let me add something more here. Some years back I was involved in a take over of a German comfort shoe company. Apart from the balance sheets, we had some arguments about their shoes and we had a similar discussion about their lasts, which were not like we have expected. Basically their argument was, that the last is corrective to the foot (and I can not say, it was exactly what we were discussing above), but the argument of this company was, that once the customer is getting used to this last and not throw it away in the first month, he will stay forever with them. I can't disclose the full details here, but it had to do with twist or no twist as well with balancing the heel. Today the company is doing fine, the lasts are still the same and my conclusion of this is, that sometimes not the obvious must be the correct one.
Andre

[ray]

I truly thank you for the warm welcome, first off I should have said that most of my experience with footwear was with insensate diabetics or extremely deformed feet due to underlying deseases which included charcot foot and arthritis. In many cases these were not flexible misalingments, in the case of the diabetic clients I could not depend on the feed back from the client due to lack of sensation, so I always demanded frequent follow up visits. The removeable insert or foot bed was my road map to pressure points that had potential for breakdown.AL, YOU ARE RIGHT ON IN YOUR INTERPRETATION AND TECHNIQUE WITH CLIENTS WHOSE FEEDBACK THAT CAN BE TRUSTED. I could not take the risk, so the removeable foot bed was my ability to modify and reduce pounds of pressure per square inch so to speak, I was able to more or less off load areas at risk. Your techinque of instrinsicly modifying the last is the best was to achieve the same thing and reduce bulke and keep the foot close to ground as possible inturn improving stability.By reducing mass at the heel area of the last is maybe the important contributor to the control factor of the foot during heel contact, but IMO we must remember the pronated foot is in a tri plane position which is only momentary and not to address the forefoot misalingment either by instrinsic or at least mild extrinsic posting would set up failure for the first ray to function correctly. boy what a can of worms, I LOVE IT. Ray

[andre]

Raymond,
I agree with you, but what you "basically" do, if you know that most of your clients having a balancing problem and you should create a series of lasts to your customers feet problem. Would you go for a series with last corrections like mentioned above, so you can do later minor footbed adjustments or leave it like it is and take the task for major corrections on footbeds?
Andre

[andre]

Raymond,
for my own sake here, you can see my pressure points above in this thread, do you think I N E E D customized footbeds, like my guys are saying?
Thanks for your advice
Andre

[last_maker]

Andre,

It is very interesting that the JM last lines up with the alignment I proposed earlier.

12458.jpg

compared to

12459.jpg

I am not sure it would line up for every foot in custom last but since it is computer modeling and not hand modeliing it is very possible that it is repeatable. On the other hand, for the hand modeler, when trying to achieve this outer swing it it is better to set up the sole shape on the outer swing line. also, the hee seat is set up level with the swing line. instead of on an angle such as a Rossi set up. Don't get me wrong, I love Rossi's observations and use them too. However for setting up this swing line it is set up on the outside. To get the swing I proposed earlier,it would be a mistake to set it up along the foot center line.

12460.jpg

[last_maker]

Andre,

Well I tried to post them individually but it makes for a wierd set up, so here goes again.

It is very interesting that the JM last lines up with the alignment I proposed earlier.

I am not sure it would line up for every foot in custom last but since it is computer modeling and not hand modeliing it is very possible that it is repeatable. On the other hand, for the hand modeler, when trying to achieve this outer swing it it is better to set up the sole shape on the outer swing line. Also, in the sole shape I proposed earlier, the heel seat is set up level with the swing line. instead of on an angle such as a Rossi set up. Don't get me wrong, I love Rossi's observations and use them too. However for setting up this swing line it is set up on the outside. To get the swing I proposed earlier,it would be a mistake to set it up along the foot center line.


See below:

12462.jpg

[ray]

Andre, If the large pedograph is what you are asking about, it looks like a cavus foot type (high arch) with classic high load areas at the #5 met. head, prominence at base of the 5th met. shaft and moderate presure at the head of the #2 met. head, which look to have pressures that may or may not cause discomfort.In my experience with this foot type they have a very structure, almost at times too strong for it's own good at times.They lack some flexibility and in some cases can be very rigid. Without knowing if there are range of motion limitations or other biomechanical misalingments,(I suspect without knowing, that tibial torsion may play a factor into this foot type)IMO I would have to say unless you are symptomatic I would not see the need for a true custom foot orthotic, but surely a transverse met.arch pad would help disperse some pressure and reduce pounds per square inch at the met.heads. That said I have found that this tpye of foot can defy some of the best efforts to control it.Have you noticed that many people with this foot type have some of the best athletic ability? I seldom see a hyperpronator stand up to the stresses as a athlete as well as a cavus foot. It seems that HYPERpronators have joint laxity else where, not only the foot. The cavus foot seems to be just the opposite, tight structure, less laxity, lower fat percentages per body wt.Remember we all pronate and we all supernate,it's when during the gait cycle and how far we move from the midline that will determine if intervention is needed.And yes IMO last shape can influence how the foot reacts to ground forces, but once that foot takes flight we are at the mercy of other biomechical relationships of the rest of the limb including but not limited Q angle at the hip.I hope I answered your question with my rambling.You people are way ahead of me with last design and look forward to the depth this topic and it's on going.

[andre]

Raymond,
thank you. No I did not realize that people with my feet structure are in athletics, but myself being in athletics in younger age! So you have one more case identified, great, what a performance!
Thanks, I will take your advice.
Andre

[last_maker]

Hi All,

Here are some images below with three differnt individuals. Hopefully these images will help imagine what is going on in the human foot, and why twist is there. Hopefully too they are not to big. the total pic is a bit wide but I couldn't size it down any further with out loosing detail.

We are not talking about a large amount of twist, just what naturally resides in the human foot.

A lot of the "natural twist comes from bone structure and how the ligiments hold the foot. Many custom bespoke last makers just include this twist when they make thier lasts.Others level the planes and allow the foot to adjust to the footwear. Each last maker has thier own theories as to why. But the prevailing reason to not add a foot bed and/or twist is a fear that if one has such in thier footwear that the foot 'MIGHT' get lazy and flacid.

In my opinion this is only fear that isn't based on reality. Like anything else in the body what makes muscules limp and lax is a lack of excersize. For a healthy foot, changing shoe styles helps excersize different muscles, also going bare foot is a wonderful way to excersize every muscle and ligiment in the foot. Also walking, running, or jumping. An anatomically correct foot bed in your shoes does not effect the muscles but it might effect the joints in a positive way. I spoke to a 92 year old a couple of weeks ago, she was asking for a custom last so her daughter could make some custom shoes. I took a pedigraph. She had worn custom orthtics all her life. She had a perfect foot print, no arch failiure, no bunions, and at palpatation, muscles were still in good health for her age.

Andre' No one needs a foot bed in thier shoes. It is just that when one is selling custom and expensive footwear, it makes for a happy customer when they feel the custom archetecture of thier foot in thier shoes,they feel they can't get this feature any where else and thus are willing to spend the extra cost. Of course there are other features as to why a customer buys, but a custom foot bed tends to sell more than those with out, espcially in heeled ladies shoes. Ladies are looking for that extra something special that stablizes thier walk and assists in thier comfort while wearing uncomfortably high heels( sort of an oximoron, I know)

For a healthy foot which we are speaking about here, it is nice not to have to "break in" the foot bed, but instead have it there on first try. If you have a healthy foot, it is a choice. For sick feet, an orthotic is a must to manipulate the joints and muscles for proper gait. For the Boot and shoe maker dealing with healthy feet it can be a selling feature to have a foot bed included .

12464.jpg

[das]

DW,

Sounds like you best start by dipping your toes into the pool on this. Get a hold of 'Boot & Shoe Manufacture' by Edward Swaysland (Northampton, 1905)--don't you have it? Go to pgs. 24-26, and plate 9. Pay especial attention to the bottom last fitting he labeled #13 in fig. 5, plate 9. This is the heel-to-4th/5th head fitting you can stick on the bottom to effectively make a nice trough for the foot to settle into, which adds some medial uptwist as well.

Don't just go grinding on lasts, no, try experimenting with fittings first. My "West Ender" last you have is usually all the uptwist I resort to, but if you added a #13 fitting to the bottom of that, you'd go off the dial with twist

[das]

Marlietta,

The heel in a relaxed position is curved and thus, I believe Al is only filling in one side of the curve and allowing the other side to remain round. Is that right Al?

Yup, just effectively raising the insole medially to "meet" the foot's curve--nothing more. Or conversely, via fittings, lowering the last's lateral bottom side to bring the foot up to true like several observed was done to the model's foot/leg at the HCC demo on getting the foot up into a healthy "neutral" position before making a foot impression in the foam box....zat's all

[das]

DW,

Are you saying that a plantar build-up on the lateral side running from the back of the heel just behind the lateral treadline, is equivalent to, or can augment, a medial uplift?

It comes close, yes. But of course adding fittings to any last increases it's girth, so this creates the need for further last modifications, unless the base last started under-girth and the fitting brings it up to where you need it to be.

Can you articulate a reason why all the "twist" cannot be accomplished on factory lasts with the lateral build-up alone?

Hummm.... Because adding a fitting is not actually twisting the last's shape itself. Just imagine sawing a last in two top to bottom behind the instep, rotating the rear section and then re-attaching it--that's "twisting". True, adding lateral bottom fittings creates a "nest" for the foot to right itself somewhat, but just off the top it's not achieved all of the architectural changes in the rear foot actually twisting the last would.

[das]

Lance,

Terry put a build-up under my 1st met head on the bottom of the last. He calls this a 'socket.' When I mentioned this to Pelle, Pelle said Terry does this with some frequency. I believe that Terry is the only one in London to do this. I do have a pretty prominent joint (related to my high instep/arch/pes cavus, not because of any bunion). Also, when I look at the bottom of Terry's lasts, they clearly have a convexity along the lateral side of the waist; it almost seems like you can 'see' the muscle/pad inside the wood. It sounds like your suggestion of the leather strip would be similar.

IMO anything/everything we can do to the bottom of the last to give a head-start to the natural "blurred" footbed that would develop in wear is good. When I started I went overboard on digging a little depression in the last bottom to lift the 2nd, and 3rd., or at least to avoid over-working them or dropping them into an overly crowned, convex, tread-line. A "socket" fitting is good, same general principle. British, especially 20thc. West End bespoke lasts have a very straight lateral side from the heel all the way to the outside ball, whereas factory lasts are often concave in the waist--it's a "look" I guess, but it does not agree with nature, where the "root of the 5th" usually protrudes. I guess it all gets down to how anatomical looking do we want our finished footwear, how much do we follow the foot, versus how much to we follow the looks we want to achieve.

[das]

Andre,

Ok, let me add something more here. Some years back I was involved in a take over of a German comfort shoe company. Apart from the balance sheets, we had some arguments about their shoes and we had a similar discussion about their lasts, which were not like we have expected. Basically their argument was, that the last is corrective to the foot (and I can not say, it was exactly what we were discussing above), but the argument of this company was, that once the customer is getting used to this last and not throw it away in the first month, he will stay forever with them. I can't disclose the full details here, but it had to do with twist or no twist as well with balancing the heel. Today the company is doing fine, the lasts are still the same and my conclusion of this is, that sometimes not the obvious must be the correct one.

I chuckled reading this. I, too, was similarly involved with a big last-customization project with a leading US shoe manufacturer for several years on similar issues, and like you I'm not at liberty to divulge details. But in the end I told them, "the more uniquely customized and anatomical the last is, the fewer feet it will fit genetically within the population". These firms measure success/failure on how many models sell, versus how many become dead-stock or get returned--we're focused on fitting a customer's foot in front of us, and a last that fits him/her well will naturally not fit anybody else as well. Mass-production footwear is just another animal, and they move in a realm of "well tolerated container shapes across wide segments of a population" that do not hurt (much?). We move in a different realm is all. Is there a happy middle ground? I think so, but seeing that manufacturers need thousands of lasts for one seasonal "run" of one style, adding more lasts for inflare, neutral, outflare, "twisted" vs. flat, etc., etc., etc. is moving in the wrong direction for them. Ever notice how few sizes and widths are offered anymore? Used to be, popular shoes came in more than 300 length/width combinations--now you're lucky to find 2 (too large or too small). Multiply those 300 x 2 degrees of "swing" to add inflare and outflare options, then by 2 or more degrees of heel "twist" and nobody's shoe company is gonna bear that expense on this season's balance sheet

[dw]

Al,

Point me to a source...Swaysland?...that will offer guidance on how to modify the plantar surface of the last with regard to creating a little uplift under the 2nd and 3rd.

Or how to socket under the first.

I I am really interested in exploring the possibilities here.

I must commend you and thank you for the perseverance that you have brought to this conversation. It is difficult, I know, to try to convince people that do not have the same frame of reference that you yourself have. And doubly so when those same people are as hardheaded and set in their ways as decades of isolation and self-satisfaction can produce. I am sad to be learning so much so late but glad for the challenge.

Again thank you.

To all,


...in a paroxysm of parochialism...

12466.gif

Happy Thanksgiving.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[admin]

Moved the discussion on the Trade to "The SpeakEasy"> "Just some Thoughts"...


Emmett--sweeping the light fantastic

[last_maker]

So I have another last question to ask. but before I ask, I want to caveat this by saying, up until now, all I delt with is custom made lasts- made to measure based on a pedograph and sculpted with a foot model referance. But I want to learn more about pre-manufactured lasts and remodeling of them.

I know that fitting down center from ball break to heel is important. Since I only make custom but am trying to understand commercial last fitting could someone tell me if it is ok to adjust the bottom of the last? As i see in Swasland and many other books, they only show fittings along the sides and front but rarely on the bottom.

Here is a senorio I speak of: A customer needs a last that is a shorter heel to ball that what I have in stock. The heel to ball break is to long in the last I have in stock by about 3/4 of an inch. So my question is, to shorten heel to ball, is it possible to simply add leather fittings to build into the arch area right behind the ball of the last and effectivly push back the ball to the right position for a correct heel to ball measurment? Then Shape and blend into the arch area? Sure this would effect the length of the toe box & cone, but what if one could rasp the to box & cone back by the amount that 3/4" was added into the arch to push back the ball break, cone and toe box?

Has any one done this? did it work? what was your exprience?

-Marlietta

[artzend]

Marlietta

George Koleff talked of doing that, but you would probably find all sorts of problems. If the foot was that much too short then it would probably be a totally different fitting in the heel and you would need to reshape that too. If you are going to re shape the seat, why not grind that much off the back and reshape it. It's not likely that the toe is going to need to be as long either, so you would have to shorten that, by which time the whole last is different and you could probably buy a smaller one closer to the heel to ball fitting, and remodel that.

I have shortened lasts from the back for really wide short feet. I have taken buildups off old lasts that have been placed behind the ball, so it is possible, if that is what you wanted to know.


Tim

[paul]

Marlietta,
The thing I would be concerned about, shortening the heel to ball in thatmanner and that much, is that the tread line would be thrown off.
It would lead to one thing after another that was effected.
The long heel would need to be considered.
And then the toe spring might be too great.
3/4" is two sizes. Go for a smaller size and build.
IMO,
Paul

[lancepryor]

Marlietta:

I would agree that the better way to go is to take off and reshape the rear of the last, rather than mucking about with the forefoot. It is alot easier to either add to or cut off some of the heel, since this won't affect the relative position of the cone vs. the joint, the toe spring, the tread line, etc. I have seen Terry cut off the rear of a last blank to start his bespoke lasts, when the blank was too long in the heel to ball measure. He told me to adjust the heel rather than messing with the joint.

I would also say that 3/4" is a fair amount to try to take off the back. Perhaps you can find a RTW last that is closer to your measurements, e.g. from Spring Line or from J&V. Or why not just do a bespoke last?

Lance

[last_maker]

Tim,Paul & Lance.

Thank you so very much for putting in the time to shake me out of this crazy idea I had of simply adding behind the ball break Now thinking about it as you guys so generously pointed out, what can of worms it would be to go about altering the last that way.

Paul, you are right, when adding behind the ball, I would run into toe spring issues.

I like the idea of shaving off the back a bit. I think though that I then might have have to add to the arch area of the heel seat to make it long enough.

Whoohwooo! Lance you are right it just seems easier at such point to start over huh!!

Lance,What a wonderful resource Terry is to you. A last maker that is still alive! How rare is that! That is awesome you can refer to his experience when you have questions.

Well, like I said I am studying and paying attention to how you guys masterfully add, alter subtract from an existing last as apposed to making a new one for each customer,as I was taught to do.. Most of the bespoke lasts I make do not start off as a blank last, they begin as a square block and are shaved by hand the old fashioned way. ( It would be nice to find a resource for a Last makers knife). So I am exploring short cuts.

So once again Thank you Tim, Paul and Lance for your insight and input I really appreciate your responces.

-Marlietta

[hallotp]

Lately I keep seeing examples of shoes and boots that seem to be made with heels that are much too low for the intended last. Here is an example:
http://buloshoes.com/thumb_detail.cfm/id/4193/CatPulldown/13/SubPulldown/328.cfm
CYDWOQ seems to make all of its shoes this way, with huge amounts of toe spring. My question is this: Is it acceptable to disregard or fudge the heel height on a last? Do you think these shoes are built using special lasts with more toe spring? I dont really find this look very attractive, but if I have a last that has a 1" heel, but I want to make a shoe with just 1/2" is that OK in terms of comfort and wearability?
Thanks.
Hallot

[dw]

One: they're garbage.

Two: they're off the last. One cannot tell what the toe spring or proper heel height might be when the shoe is deliberately deformed in that manner.

Three: No, it is not acceptable to fudge heel height. The heel height is relative to the treadline and there is only one treadline.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

I have experienced the feel of a heel much lower than it's intended heel height, and I concurr. Not acceptable.

When I was doing s/r I was often asked to lower heels, and was always reluctant to lower much more than 1/4" at most.

Paul

[hallotp]

Thanks, this confirms my doubts. Its amazing then that so many people would by $300+ for a cemented shoe that couldnt possibly be comfortable and looks to have been broken!