One "Last" Question

[jesselee]

Pegging on a hinge last is a disaster. On a 19th century last where the cone pops off it makes no difference if the pegs go into the last as it pulls free except for the toe area, which a few slaps from a rubber mallet can loosen.

Cheers,

JesseLee

[dearbone]

DW,

If there is a hole on the heel and you can clear it,see it,a string may be used to pull the last out by putting the string through the hole and make a tie/knot,put the sting under your heel and holding the upside down shoe in the front and back with some pushing up and forward toward the toes to slip out last.

11349.jpg

[dw]

Thanks guys,

I appreciate the responses but it has to be me getting puny in my dotage or something else because all of those issues are already addressed in my procedure.

I have a steel hook that is used exactly like the cordage you show in your photo, Nasser...

I unlace the shoe. I "break" the last...or try to...and place the hook, which is long enough to reach a steel "cross-bar" into the hole at the heel of the last and pull like crazy.

This procedure works fine with boots but it is almost useless with shoes.

Just breaking the last with the lap jack, if I can get the last fully broke will bring the featherline of the last to the topline of the shoe. From there it is easy and I really don't need the look. But getting it to that point is difficult.

Fact is if I tried to use the cotton shoe laces in the photo above I'd break the laces before I'd budge the last.

I'm sure it has something to do with the topline tightness and the reinforcing tape I use, but I don't know how to remedy the situation short of leaving out the topline tape (1/8" ).

[sigh]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

DW,
I am using spring lasts on some of my shoes and if I don't get it out when using the inseaming jack I use the hook too. Sometimes I have to put a shoe horn inbetween the upper and the last on the outside and then move it slowly towards the back of the heel. Doing this will make the opening bigger and it use to work even though you think hope is gone.

Janne

Ps We talked about moving the vamp point back in another tread and one thing with it is that the last will be harder to pull out becasue the opening will be smaller so if you go for it this will happens once and a while



(Message edited by janne melkersson on June 12, 2010)

[paul]

I've read this in one of our books.
After breaking the last hinge, lay your chest upon the sole and wrap your hands around the heel of the shoe and lift.
I remember with those loafers I suffered with last year, getting red in the face, but the last did come out. And I've done it that way a time or two since.
Does that sound like something you could do to help?

(Message edited by paul on June 12, 2010)

(Message edited by paul on June 12, 2010)

[relferink]

DW,

I suspect your trouble pulling the last is a combination of the last itself and where you place your vamp point as Janne suggests. The back of the last seems to be more curved up to the cone that average. This makes it much harder to pull the last.
Don't leave out the topline tape as that would barely help you pulling the last but will make the usability far less.

I was taught was that the last should come out with significant effort, otherwise you did not last well enough. Bursting a vain is just part of the job, just make sure you don't get any blood on the shoes

Rob

[dw]

Janne,

Well, the vamp point problem did occur to me and I tried to move it more towards the toe on the last pair of fitter's models. That's the pair that made me start this thread. I did fiddle with a shoemaker's shoe horn and that seemed to help but I think I could learn to use it more skillfully than I did.

Paul,

That's pretty much what I'm doing--leaning on it...sitting on it, even. It comes, eventually, but dern it, I used to think getting a last out of a pair of boots was hard. Sheesh!

Rob,

I have to say that my new lasts are curved all the way to the top of the comb. Some West End lasts seem to go fairly flat about a third of the way towards the top. On the other hand I used a contour gauge to model the heel on these lasts, and I took the curve from a highly touted West End last I got from Al. So it's not like the curve is more pronounced than reasonable.

I like a taut topline, so leaving out the topline tape is not an option.

Bottom line, I can get the last out of the shoe...every time...so far. But it's tough. I am glad to hear that others are familiar with my travails and don't think it too unusual. Thanks lads.

I must say that I think these lasts fit the heel beautifully. I guess at the end of the day...a day later...the trade-off is acceptable.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on June 12, 2010)

[btippit]

Hi everyone. Looks who's back and online late at night. Some things never change.

I resisted the temptation to jump into the discussion about someone or some group buying a lathe and making lasts for the HCC members. No matter how I worded my warnings about how difficult this would be to do on a large scale as a part time endeavor (without the use of digital tools to eliminate the need to make models every 3 sizes), it would have come across as negative and arrogant so I kept my mouth shut. However, I MIGHT have something constructive to add to this hinge/last-removal issue.

The purpose of a hinge, as most people know, is to shorten the last in order to allow an "easy" (air quotes by the way) removal of the shoe. A well positioned V-cut hinge should shorten the stick length of a last by about 3/4 of a size (6mm) when the hinge is broken down. What a lot of people don't realize is that with this hinge, the high point of the heel curve actually LENGTHENS the stick length slightly in the beginning of the breaking process before the shortening takes place. It's at that point that you're starting to sweat bullets about busting a backseam DW. Once you get the hinge fulling broken, the last is about 6mm shorter and the shoe comes off relatively easily.

You might try to use a different hinge. JV offers this as does Horma S.A (the last maker I was using in Mexico) and about every other last maker in the world as far as I know. When I was at JV, we called it a PAC hinge (no idea why). It also goes by the name "European" hinge as it has been popular in Europe for decades, only catching on here in the States about the time all of the production was leaving the country. It goes mainly by the name Tendo now. I'm going to try place some images of it in this post now. I'm a little rusty so keep the chuckles to a minimum please.

11351.jpg

11352.jpg

Look at the difference in how the mechanics work as compared to these images of a V-Cut hinge.

11353.jpg

11354.jpg

This particular heel curve in the v-cut isn't a very good example but you can see how the farthermost point of the heel curve would extend slightly before the back of the last begins to fully tilt forward and shorten the stick length.

With the Tendo, you either slide the forepart of the last up or down (depending on the hinge manufacturer and how the last factory cuts the last). Nothing extends, the last just gets shorter. And this hinge is easily as strong as the V-cut, in most cases stronger.

Just a thought. No one likes change but you might ask your last supplier to make an additional half pair or full pair with this hinge as well the next time you order a V-cut and then see how you like it. The cost and delivery time should be about the same (at least with Horma S.A. they are). I THINK it will help ease some of the pain of delasting but as I always point out....I've never made a shoe.

I've missed communicating with everyone. Things are FINALLY settling down here so maybe I can jump in occasionally if anyone still wants my .

Bill Tippit

[dw]

Bill,

You and your insights...your ...will always be welcome here.

I wondered about switching to scoop cone (if it was available) simply because I've been rather unsatisfied with the spring in almost all the spring hinge lasts I've gotten in recent years. Seems like when I first got into this the springs I was getting were about three times as powerful as they are now...regardless of the source. Used to be you were seriously afraid to get your hand near the bottom of the last when trying to close one of them back up. Nowadays, there is a possibility, especially with boots, that the last can be sprung slightly (inside the freshly lasted boot) and you would never know it.

I am intrigued by the Tendo last. But I have to ask how the devil do you open it? I mean, mechanically you move the forepart down or the backpart up...but physically how is that achieved?

Anyone?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on June 13, 2010)

[athan_chilton]

Bill T, would you say that the Tendo last is easier to break than the V-cut? I've only used the V-cut so far, (shoes, no boots) and granted I am not very strong, I've found them so hard to break that early on I just worked the shoes off the last without breaking the last at all. (not recommended practice, and not easy either--surprised the bottom of the shoe didn't get messed up). I'm getting better at breaking the V-cut but still wouldn't call it 'easy'!

[btippit]

Thanks DW. It's good to know I'm not persona non grata, at least in some circles.

The scoop cone hinge is available from Horma S.A. I'm not sure if JV offers it or not. You'd have to ask Allen. Horma refers to it as the "Cuna" hinge. Instead of a nail or cotter pin to hold the top of the cone in place, there is a recessed spring that is unlocked by placing a small punch, screwdriver, or other metal object into the hole. When the spring is pressed the top pops off. Of course in a tightly lasted boot you will need a hole drilled for your hook or lace to pull the top piece out but it's by far the hinge of choice for most production bootmakers outside the USA. The requisite pictures....

11366.jpg

11367.jpg

We never offered this hinge when I was at JV but now that JV in the USA is really the old Vulcan factory, you might want to check with Allen. It could be that this is something they offer.

As to how to break down a Tendo...picture your boot upside down on a jack stand. In the case of the Tendo from my posting last night (and most of the ones I've seen in recent years are like this), you would pull "up" on the front of the boot - which would actually be pulling it towards the sole - and as the last slides open, the front immediately (and that's important) begins to slide back so the shortening begins to occur right from the start. Once the last is broken open you then pull the heel of the shoe or boot off the back and the footwear slides right off the front. I may just show up at your doorstep someday with one you can take a look at if I can find one in my limited collection.

Athan - It really depends on how tight the hinge is in either case. If one of the pins is sitting in an area where there was an air bubble in the block, the hinge will be easier to break and less effective at doing it's job. Poor location, bent hinges, inferior metal, etc. can also affect the tightness. I think if both types are well made, they should be about equal in difficulty to break. I think perhaps the mechanics of the Tendo lend themselves to a little less work on the part of the shoemaker but that could probably be debatable.

You definitely want to be sure that the last is not going to slip off the jack so a pin that is relatively correct to the thimble hole and long enough to reach pretty far into the thimble is important. Otherwise you might end up picking yourself up off your backside if the whole boot/last slips off at the peak of your pull.

Hope this helps.....

BT

[danfreeman]

I use the Paul Krause method to remove v-cut or scoop block lasts from shoes. For boots, though, I need a drilled last and that hook you mentioned.
Relasting is always risky, but needed for Blaked (McKayed) footwear, and for resoling. It's far easier with boots: they have a built-in shoehorn. For shoes, I use a shoehorn, with Golding's important caveat: it must be removed before the shoe back gets up to the largest part of the last.

Bill T., welcome back: the 2 pairs of lasts you sent are perfect.

[dw]

Dan,

I missed that...where in Golding is the reference to using a shoehorn to re-insert the last into the shoe?

I have not had to do it yet but I doubt whether I could get the last back into the shoe even with a shoe horn. The widest, thickest part of the heel is only a half inch or so...maybe an inch...above the feather line. Seems like if you pulled the shoehorn out before that widest part, you wouldn't have any way to get the shoe past the thickening and it would tend to collapse the stiffener...?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[btippit]

Dan - Thanks. I'm glad they worked out for you. Horma S.A. does a great job.

BT

[danfreeman]

I'll have to check: it could have been Plucknett, or another, but I remember reading it in one of those British texts. The idea is, you need the shoehorn to start the process, but must remove it as soon as possible, before the largest part of the last is reached, though it be but an inch; you stretch the topline as much as you did in unlasting, but no more. I have several differently shaped shoehorns (more or less gradually curved), and must use the right one. The few times I've had trouble (cracked toplines) occured when relasting old shoes for resoling. The correct degree of stretch--very little--in your topline tape is important--it shouldn't be of the absolutely-no-stretch type.
Ideally, a last of the same model, 1/2 size smaller is reinserted; this is how shoes were made when the factories McKayed them, or, better, some factories had special "follower" lasts made, the same size, but skimpy at the heel point and the vamp point, and thin in the toes.
With custom lasts, you lack this choice, and must relast only when necessary, with caution (French chalk and a damp upper). And yes, collapsed stiffeners are the other danger.

[danfreeman]

Let me add to my yesterday post: the second sentence should read, "...remove it (the shoehorn) as soon as possible, before the largest part of the last is reached, though it be but an inch or less above the featherline."
Also, the shoehorn must be longer than a commercial steel one, but otherwise very similar. Put the last in the shoe, tap it with a mallet to drive it into the toe, mount the last on the jack, insert the shoehorn and lever the last heel into the shoe while opening the last hinge, sliding the shoehorn out at the same time--it's similar (though harder) with a slip-cone last. It's true: you stretch the topline as much as you did unlasting the shoe, but no more.
I, too, hate to disturb the sculptural perfection of a well-lasted shoe; and relasting a shoe is always risky but remember, people will be pushing their big feet into them!
I spent too much time yesterday, skimming texts and indexes, trying to find where I read this--no luck. But I didn't invent it--I remember reading it, and being unsure what it meant, until I tried it.

[andre]

Hello,
I need to make a sandal like the pic. Does anybody has an idea how to make the molded toe?

11388.jpg

I hope somebody can help, because I have no clue.
Thanks

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Buy a sandel blank from Warkov Safer in Winnipeg and trim it to the size you need.

Or find someone who has a set of Birkinstock lasts and vacum form them.
Regards
Brendan

[dearbone]

Andre,

Welcome to the Colloquy,Is the vamp stitch-down to the insole or wrapped around it? if it is stitch-down,than i think they are made free hand,without the use of last by tracing the foot and and shaping it to the look in the picture,the instep and joint measurement will provide you how to cut the vamp for these mules/sandals. It will be helpful to see a side view picture from eye level.The sandals are made flat with possibly one layer heel piece but with wear the foot will shape the insole to it's shape and creates a little arch.

Nasser

[dw]

Dan,

I don't doubt that you ran across it somewhere. There's a mort of material out there and no one can remember it all.

I think Tim Skyrme mentions using a shoe horn in his book. And I myself have a shoemaker's shoe horn that I inherited from somewhere. It is a touch heavier than commercial variations, longer, and scooped at both ends--so that one has a conventionally wide shoe horn on one end and a narrower one on the other end.

After your first post on the subject, I tried to re-insert the last into one of the fitter's models it came from. This was the shoe/shoes that initially prompted my complaint. Worked just as you described. I could have put the last back in the shoe relatively easily. More easily than trying to pull it.

BTW, your remarks about the topline tape are spot on. I use a heavily corrugated topline tape that is intended to stretch just slightly and turn corners...such as around the top of the facings...with ease. That said, it is nylon and nylon will stretch some, too.

All of which suggests that as difficult as it may be to get the last out of the shoe the chances of tearing the topline are somewhat less than might be feared.

I do appreciate your input and...even if incidental...commiseration. Thank you.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[andre]

Nasser,
thanks for your kind words, I saw some of your works here and I think they are very impressive.
This sandal in the pic is just wrapped around and the midsole is EVA with a rubber sheet bottom. My question is, how is it possible to get the insole molded, with the three projections in the toe, manually done, in leather, without having already a molded midsole? You have any idea how this could be done? If I have a molded insole, than is of course not a problem, but any clue how I can get it done without a molded insole? I'm sure in the ancient times, this kind of sandals were also there, but how they did it?
Regards
Andre

[dearbone]

Andre,

I am not sure this is the right thread discussing this question,but administration may move it where it belong,That,s said, you can get heat moldable EVA and do the shaping on a last yourself,you may also use a veg tan shoulder, wet it and let dry to take the shape of the bottom of the last as we do for welted shoes but in this case the insole may be left about 5mm outside the last feather line beyond the vamp toward the heel.
I hope this helps.

Nasser

[noonan]

Gents,
This can be done by first creating a negative of your insole, and then with vacuum form, mold a positive out of the EVA, or ThermoCork, with extra stock thicknesses which can then be shaped on your sander,
and posted to fit your specific last. In orthopedic work we would do this using the bottom castings of the foot. Same process, just a slightly different application. Except that the picture shown is a molded unit where there were a few thousand peices made from that one mold, or Pair of molds I should say.
On really tough feet, we would sculpt the features of each foot into the last, including the bottom of foot, say for Polio, or tougher conditions, like Charcot, Marie, Tooth. Then vacuum form your first couple of layers directly over the bottom of last.
This is very time consuming, and not practical on any one off pair of shoes, unless you are charging for all that extra time. Sometimes on a tough one, you could be modeling a last for 2 days!! Not an easy way to go.
Enjoy the weekend.
Tim

[courtney]

I have a question on building up my lasts to mach my girth measurements.

On my last pair of shoes the right foot was perfect and the last matched my measurements,

The left foot was almost perfect but a little loose through my outside {lateral} waist.

I am not sure if the last was as exact to my measurements { I think so} but i put a build up over my middle cuniform cuz its painfull if much pressure is on there, it was still a little too snug so I tacked a shover on the cone.

the instep now feels good and still is snug but the lateral arch is still a little airy.

So, my question is, with these added build ups that dont nessacarily match my girths but make the shoe comforatable, should I still try to match the overall waist, instep, etc girths to my measurements or will this make the outside waist too tight?

Hopefully this makes sense. I sanded the outside of the last some and relasted a fitter on it that still felt loose, but I cant really tell if thats reliable because it had already been lasted with a counter that had set to the previous girths.

Whaddaya think?

Courtney

[courtney]

I am also thinking about trying to duplicate my lasts with a plaster mold.

Has anyone seen the Wilson Gracey video on doing that, and is it worth getting or could I get the same info looking on the web about casting other stuff,

does anyone have the holy grail of casting stuff, expandable foam, bondo, smooth on, etc?

I want to do this, so any advice and tips greatly appreciated, but I guess I have to get the girth thing sorted out first.

Thanks,
Courtney