Curved needle

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Re: Curved needle

#151 Post by das » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:27 am

Alasdair,

Congratulations of the recent score of "scrap iron" Image

A Gritzner (AKA Frobana)! When running those are very sweet machines, even nicer stitch than a Junker & Ruh. They run like a Swiss watch too. Good luck on parts/needles though.

BTW, I read yesterday that the brain trust at the US Department of Homeland Insecurity has just banned all airmail parcels coming into the US weighing more than one lb. I just found a nest of some Junker & Ruh SD-28 parts I need in Europe that I'm having a friend send airmail, but necessarily broken up into several smaller parcels of less than a lb. each. So much for my Christmas puddings sent by pals in the UK, or tinned haggis *sigh*

DW and Larry--You might cherish those tinned haggises I gave you at HCC AGM, as there might not be any more at this rate *mutter*

I bet this is going to play hell with eBay vendors overseas selling items to the US.

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Re: Curved needle

#152 Post by das » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:27 am

Alasdair,

PS--No idea what foreign liquid wax is like. Ours here, Solari's brand, is off-white and smells of kerosene or varsol. It's thick too, like the hard sauce one would pour over the damned Christmas puds we can no longer receive via airmail from our UK pals *mutter*

The Forbana/Gritzner uses a Singer "bullet" shuttle (hinged tip-out bobbin case) and shuttle hook from a 42 or 45 class Singer harness machine. I wind my bobbins on my 42 Singer. Get extra bobbins and pre-wind a few to keep on hand when one runs out and you've got a pile of soles to do. As thick as the thread is, they fill fast, it's really no chore to hand crank the bobbins either. Still faster than hand-stitching :Image

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Re: Curved needle

#153 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:42 am

Alasdair,
you are welcome.

I am afraid I don't have a manual for it but I will ask around and see what I can find. I don't know the history about Dania and Petersen, maybe they sold the machines outside Scandinavi under the name of Dania. Here in Sweden I have never heard of a Dania solestitcher

Check up if the pitch and shuttle heater is working but be careful the electricity at those days was not as secure as ours.

The dragant I was talking about was a powder that where mixed with water. Today I just use a mix of water and soap for the upper tread.

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Re: Curved needle

#154 Post by amuckart » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:27 pm

DW,

Thanks for the info on the wax. I'll ditch it and find a source of Sellari's in NZ. That's the fun part of working 'blind' like this, knowing things exist and what they're for but having no idea what they're actually like.

I wouldn't be able to do this without the colloquy, so thanks again for making it happen.

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Re: Curved needle

#155 Post by amuckart » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:13 pm

Al,

Sorry to hear about the troubles with shipping stuff to the US. You might just have to get your haggis surface shipped in bulk. I'm lucky I can get non-tinned haggis here. You could always escape the paranoia and come to NZ. The weather is lovely this time of year Image

Did you get any interesting Junker bits? I still haven't quite gotten either of mine stitching well and moving house has meant no time to fiddle.

Good to know the Frobana uses the same shuttle and bobbins as the 45k, seeing as I have one of those (albeit in bits) and a winder that fits the bobbins. I have a half-dozen needles for it and know where to get a few more if I can bear the cost. They'll cost me more than I paid for the machine but I can't stand the thought of perfectly good machines going to scrap for lack of needles.

Thanks.

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Re: Curved needle

#156 Post by amuckart » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:40 pm

Jan-Erick,

Do you have any photographs of the shuttle heater in your machine? There was a pair of (lead armoured!) wires going into the space above the shuttle which had ceramic connectors on the end but no heating element.

Are shuttle heaters normal on this class of machine?

You weren't half right about the electrics. I always plan on rewiring machines this old anyway but it was pretty bad. Not as bad as some of the '50s featherweights I've stripped, but not at all safe.

Thanks.

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Re: Curved needle

#157 Post by janne_melkersson » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:19 am

Alasdair,
on the 309 machines I have been using the shuttle heather/element is imbeded in the metal around the shuttle and it will also heat up the bobbins you put on the bobbin holder above the shuttle.
Next time in shop I'll take a photo of it so you can compare.

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Re: Curved needle

#158 Post by amuckart » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:57 pm

Thanks Jan-Erick, photos would be really handy. I'll take photos of my one later today. I'm completely new to this type of machine so I only have the vaguest idea what I'm dealing with.

Do you happen to know what type of hooks and awls this machine takes? Mine came with a half dozen hooks and a whole pile of awls in various sizes but I'm a little confused because the awls seem to vary in curvature quite a bit and I'd have thought that they would need to all be the same curve to fit the machine.

Can the awls be resharpened, or does chaning the length of them do bad things?

Thanks.

tomo

Re: Curved needle

#159 Post by tomo » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:42 pm

Hi Alasdair,
Graeme might have info or parts for it, or you could try Proleptic for a manual. http://www.proleptic.net/
Cheers
Tomo.

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Re: Curved needle

#160 Post by janne_melkersson » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:26 am

Alasdair,
I took some photos today but they was of bad quallity. But I guess my machine is not as old as yours because it looked more "modern" only one cable going in to the shuttle and without ceramic connectors. Just keep you fingers away and try it, it might work as it is.

The reason you find different curvatures is because there are two different major needle systems for sole stitchers. The 309 runs with the smaller curvature and the 317 operates with the larger curvature on the awl and needle.

My awl size is 47 and the needle is 50 and the system is the smaller curvature. Yours might have a different size of needle/awl if so it is probably awl 45 and needle 47. It is of importance that the needle holder is of the same size as the awl to keep it is right possition while operating.

I don't know if you can sharpen the awls but I guess you can. I newer did becasue I still have a couple of boxes left

hope this helps................Janne
ps here is a link where you can see a Pedersen 317 E at work the 309 is operated the same way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv2o0i6nLwg&feature=related

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Re: Curved needle

#161 Post by amuckart » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:09 am

Hi Jan-Erick,

Thanks for that. I guess some time in the distant past there were two of different machines in the same place. All the awls I have came in the compartment of the machine.

Here's a picture of the shuttle area of my machine with the covers removed. There was a flat steel plate that the pointed grub screw would tighten down on but there was no heating element in there, and the ends of the wires that did lead into the space weren't connected to anything so I'm guessing it had been removed.
12557.jpg


It's not a big deal for me, since I don't plan on running the machine with hot wax. I probably won't even replace that part of the wiring.

I think I'm going to have an interesting time in the next few weeks re timing this machine though. It was too filthy to bring into the house so I had to clean it - undiluted citrus cleaner and a pressure washer did a great job - but I removed the shuttle carrier and lifted out the main cam shaft in the process, knowing full well this meant retiming the machine afterwards.

Fun fun fun Image

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Re: Curved needle

#162 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:36 am

Alasdair ,
your machine looks like new. My machine is not yet in working condidtion. I got it in shop a couple of month ago and it will need some cleaning before I start using it.

The preser foot that is mounted on yours is not for shoes it is for stitching on plain stuff like belts and bags. Leaning on the sewing table you have an edge guide where you set the distance for the stitches from the edge. I use this guide only on plain work, when stitching out soles I use the sewing table as a guide. Hopefully there is a presser foot for shoes comming with your machine.

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Re: Curved needle

#163 Post by amuckart » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:48 am

Jan-Erick,

The machine looked nothing like that when I got it! The guy I bought it from had had the shop for 5 years and never used it, nor had the people he bought the shop from, so it had probably 20 years accumulation of shop dust mixed with the old wax and oil deposits all through it and it was barely turning in a lot of places.

Here's the back of the head after I cleaned it out. It does seem to be in quite good condition with minimal wear on the rollers etc so I have high hopes for it once I've got it all back together and worked out how to time it.
12559.jpg


I have read the posts on here about people being wary of cleaning this type of machine, but part of the exercise for me was figuring out a bit about how it works. It remains to be seen whether this was a good idea or not Image

Thanks for the info on the presser foot, I'd have had no idea otherwise. It came with another foot that has a single, toothed, toe to it, and a second 'table' that is slightly bigger than the one on the machine at the moment. It's been repaired at some point in the past though, there is visible brazing, so I'm hoping it's been ground to shape correctly. I'll take pictures of those parts later.

Thanks again for all your help.

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Re: Curved needle

#164 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:43 am

Alasdair,
you are welcome.

Wow, I have never seen such a clean machine. Now you have inspired me to do the same. Great, the single toothed presser foot with the toe is for shoes.

The different tables is for different kind of work. If the table will be used as a guide it is of importance that the distance from the edge of the table to the last is a bit larger then if the edge guide will be used. If the distance is to short the stitches will end up to close to the last. A larger table will be needed for the presser foot for plain work. Since half of it is out in the "air" it will not give as much support as it could. Today it is har to find origin tables so you have to re-make an old one.

Let us know when you start up the beauty beast Image

(Message edited by janne melkersson on December 15, 2010)

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Re: Curved needle

#165 Post by amuckart » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:57 am

Here are pictures of Tom O'Sullivan's Gritzner, showing the stool it lives on and the channel knife. I thought this would be a better topic for them to live in than the "Looking For" one.
12697.jpg
12696.jpg
12695.jpg
12694.jpg
12693.jpg


This is different from my machine, which has a feed dog instead of a knife. I'll post a picture of mine later.

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Re: Curved needle

#166 Post by amuckart » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:07 am

Jan-Erick, ,

I fixed the hook timing on my Dania. SO much easier on something with a huge hook like that than the domestic machines I've been working on lately!

It's my first needle-and-awl machine, and I'm entranced by the motion of all the hooks and loopers as it moves.

I need to finish wiring up the motor properly, then get the right sort of flat drive belt for it, it runs just now but the belts are all wrong.

I'll post some more pictures anon.

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Re: Curved needle

#167 Post by amuckart » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:50 am

Here are pictures of my Gritzner, showing the toothed feed dog it has instead of a channel knife.
12705.jpg
12704.jpg

Having seen how my one works I'm trying to figure out how Tom's one feeds.

tomo

Re: Curved needle

#168 Post by tomo » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:11 am

Hey Alasdair,
Thanks for posting my pics and thanks for a look at yours.The knife on your machine is for crepe rubber soles.

More power to y'awl
T.
P.s I've got a little booklet on the machine if you'd like a copy.

(Message edited by Tomo on January 13, 2011)

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Re: Curved needle

#169 Post by janne_melkersson » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:37 pm

Alasdair,m
Yea these old machines are fascinating and it must have been like a miracle to see them working in the old days. Well, prehaps not for all who lost their job because of them.

Please send photos when you have it up and running. Btw, have you figured out how to tread it?

Here is a photo of mine, which is a Pedersen 309, but as you can see it is the same machine. Mine is set with a 45 awl and a 47 needle but i will change it to a 47 awl and a 50 needle. Doing this you can use thinner tread and shorter stitches. Even experienced makers will have a hard time to decide wether it is hand stitched or not with this setting.
12714.jpg


(Message edited by janne melkersson on January 13, 2011)

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Re: Curved needle

#170 Post by jesselee » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:58 pm

I have a Junker and Ruh problem. Now and then on the foreward motion, the needle tends to bind and not make a full pass which leaves me with a missed stitch. Any advice?

Cheers,

JesseLee

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Re: Curved needle

#171 Post by amuckart » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:06 pm

Tom,

I'd love to get a copy of the booklet if you can scan and email it to me. I've worked out most of what the bits are for, but the compartment under the shuttle still mystifies me and it's always nice to have a book with the machine.

Thanks.

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Re: Curved needle

#172 Post by amuckart » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:13 pm

Jan-Erick,

That's the same machine alright. I notice yours has a knob on the end of the shaft that the bobbin carrier retaining arm hangs on. It's great to see that, mine had the knob but slightly broken and sitting in the compartement on the front. I'll repair it and put it back on, it'll make changing bobbin much easier Image

Just last night I got the table put back on it. I still have to do the final wiring of the motor and main switch but I'll get to that this weekend, then I just need to get the right belts for it.

Thanks for the hint on the awl and hook sizes. I got it threaded by peering underneath with a torch. I just started with the first roller and worked out the path step by step from there and it seems to work.

Do you know if the foot is supposed to lift up when the awl advances? Mine doesn't, and I'm wondering if that's normal.

I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

Thanks.

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Re: Curved needle

#173 Post by amuckart » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:16 pm

JesseLee,

When you say the needle doesn't make a full pass, do you mean on the sideways feed stroke?

Is the needle returning to the rightmost position correctly when you push the handle back?

If it's missing stitches that might be because the shuttle point has gotten blunt, which is pretty common on these machines. If you can post a picture, or email one to me, I can compare it with mine.

Cheers.

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Re: Curved needle

#174 Post by jesselee » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:28 pm

Alasdair,
Yes, now and then it won't make a full stroke and move sideways. It does return to the correct position when the handle is pushed back.
The man I got it from sharpened the shuttle point.

Cheers,

JesseLee

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Re: Curved needle

#175 Post by amuckart » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:41 pm

JesseLee,

You generally need to shove the handle on these with a fair bit of authority to make them work just right. I often find that if I'm at all tentative in the power stroke on the handle it won't stitch right, but I haven't done a lot of work with my ones.

I expect you've worked this out already, but for the archives, I have found that using the needle plate with the raised lip it won't feed right unless the channel in the outsole is riding just right on the lip, and it really doesn't like having the material retarded in any way during the feed.

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