Fitting the Foot

[luke_miller]

Thank you Tim and Terry,

Tim,

In my "vast" "experience" of one previous pair of shoes this upper seemed to fit the last well except for the lack of lasting allowance in the heel and especially the toe. With the goal of craftsmanship in mind I am trying to make my projects as well as my sanity will allow, so once I realized that I was going to remake the uppers I lasted very, very wet and pulled very hard to bring the toe over the front of the last. I also did some extreme hoisting and cursing. The leather had very little stretch. I should have anticipated this in the pattern but the outcome of this was that the upper was quite taut pulling the back in above the last. The toe made it but is worse for the wear and not usable, let alone the water soluble lining dye. I continued lasting in this way so that I could try it on. I've gone to a 4/5 oz leather(the same I made my original fitter with) and the stretch is a known quantity this time.

Again, thank you for your tips, especially about the last's toe seam. I will fix those up right away while I add 1cm more of toe space. The boot fits great in the toe for the street, but descending steep mountains would jam my toes to the front as they're right up close to begin with. In sewing my new upper the tongue stitching looks a lot better, but I still wonder if there isn't a better way and still make them water resistant? Do you think that the chrome goat I've used is substantial enough for a bellow tongue or should I beef it up somehow? I added about 5mm to the pattern at the top of the heel and made a new pattern reflecting this and the added more toe and heel allowances.

I am planning to sew a full welt, glue and sew a synthetic? midsole, then glue (and partially stitch?)a vibram sole. I've only done a 3/4 welt and glued leather sole construction (on my first pair) but our hiking is quite rocky and steep 'round here so I would like some sturdy boots. Any helpful hints on this topic? I am flying by the seat of my pants on this one!

Are the two piece "rapid rivets" okay to use for the lacing system? They loosened and are pulling apart but I think that they were just a bit short (I really had to whack them hard), and although they held fast when set, the lasting loosened them up. Is this a characteristic of these easy rivets or is it my fault for buying the short ones instead of the too long ones? I'm tempted to get solid copper rivets and go to work.

I could just keep asking questions but I know you guys and girls are busy. Thanks for reading this far.

Terry,

This pattern is from the Koleff book. I appreciate your offer of the computer work and if the this second version does not work well ( I already have done most of the cutting and sewing) then I will certainly take you up on your offer. Your support makes me feel relaxed. I did catch the transitional change to the facings but anyone could easily forget. It sure makes sense to me. The heel height was set at 1cm and I lowered the height of the boot by about 2cm as it seemed to high for my taste.

I did make my own last and am glad I can't hear the laughter from here. However I don't have any pictures of(I searched high and low) or instructions for an appropriate last so I'm making it up as I go. I did notice on my first pair of shoes (that I wear 50+ hours per week ) that I wanted a bit more snugness under the arch. My foot's contact with the ground is bananna shaped and narrow. I haven't made a drastic change with this last but now that the subject has been brought up I hope this isn't one of those "be careful what you wish for" things. It is helpful to have my own foot to compare to. I don't know how you pro's do it with any sort of success. I guess that's what all the measurement discussions are about. Anyway, the fitter fits well, and apart from the ankle tightness the boot fits well and could even be snugger so I am content to run with it.


Well its time for bed here.

Thanks once more and anyone can feel free to jump in on any question. Is this thread an appropriate place to show a finished picture or is the Gallery the place to go?

Luke

(Message edited by luke miller on July 14, 2011)

[kemosabi]

Luke,

Regarding full welting:
If you haven't seen Marcel's shoemaking videos on youtube, you may want to give it a look. In one of the videos, he does a full welt pretty much from beginning to end. If you've sewn 3/4 welts, then a full welt is no big deal.

For Vibram soles:
I've had good success with sewing a leather sole to the welt and then prepping the leather surface and rubber Vibram surface with PVC pipe glue cleaner (the purple stuff you get at the hardware store for cleaning plastic pipe surface before applying glue). Then I use 'Marine Goop' (also available at the hardware store) to attach the Vibram sole. Goop is super tough, waterproof and holds really well. If you need to thin it, you can use Toulene in small amounts to get it where it will spread better. Just be careful not to get it too thin or the adhesion may be compromised. Also, put goop on the leather (or rubber mid-sole) -and- Vibram sole before clamping in place. This makes sure that you have good coverage.


Hope that helps.

Regards,
-Nat

[kemosabi]

Boot with leather mid-sole sewn on but not trimmed yet:

13819.jpg

Vibram sole (not glued yet):

13820.jpg

[artzend]

Nat

With that sole setup you can make sure the rubber never lets go by screwing it to the leather sole with self tapping screws. Use very short screws though.

Tim

[tomo]

Hey Nat they look awsome.

[luke_miller]

Nat,

Thanks for the info. I really like the idea of using a leather mid-sole instead of a synthetic. That is a great looking boot.

Tim,

I've heard of using screws. Do you place the head of the screw between the lugs? Screwing from the outside then?

By the way I never would have even attempted to make a shoe or boot without your book. Thank you for all of your effort. It really spreads the knowledge.

Thanks again all,

Luke

[artzend]

Luke

Glad you are doing so well, yes screw from the outside, as long as the screw doesn't go as far as the insole. You can do this too with a rand instead of a welt, and a midsole blake stiched on and the vibram glued and screwed too. It wouldn't be as flexible though, but it is strong.

Sand the flesh side of your midsole before using the contact adhesive as well as the top surface of the vibram or the two will not bond well.

Also, you would be well advised to use a reinforcement strip behind your eyelets (at least where the rivets go) and use slightly longer rivets. They should be fine.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

[kemosabi]

Thanks guys for the kind words... This pair was a fun project. In hind-sight, the next pair I make will use the 2-piece Vibram sole vs, the single piece. That will make re-soling easier.

I've seen "White's" brand boots here in the states reinforce the toe by double-stitching (probably some kind of curve needle) through the mid-sole and Vibram sole. The stitching looks a bit funny because it's trying to match the contours of the lugs on the bottom so the thread is visible in many places, but it gets the job done of making sure the toe doesn't come apart.

Screws at the toe are a good idea especially for hiking boots where you're apt to stub your toe on rocks and such. More practical for the hand-maker too (vs. machine stitching as described above).

BTW:
Not to make too much a point about this; but I think Goop beats contact adhesive hands down for attaching rubber soles. Just my opinion though.

Luke,
You're on a good path Bro. Keep it up and don't be shy about asking questions. It's intimidating sometimes the amount of knowlege and experience on this site, but I've never seen an honest/sincere question go un-answered.

Cheers,
-Nat

[tomasr]

Hello everybody, I have been lurking this forum for a while, but this is my first post.
I have been reading up on shoemaking for a while now and feel ready to give it a try.
But for now I have a few questions that I dont know the answer to about Lasts and fitting;

I've found a source to order lasts from (http://spenle.de/Katalog/misc/background.html?lang=de).
There is a Enlish language button there if you'd like to take a look. I live in Sweden and that's the only site I've
found that'll deliver 1 pair of lasts to me.

1st question: I've had orthodics made by an orthopedic technician (high arches) and was wondering how I should take this into account when measuring my feet
and when ordering my lasts. The clarify: want to make sure my orthodics fits my shoes when I'm done!

2nd Q: Has anyone any experience with Spenle? And could anyone recommend someplace else (I live in Sweden)?

I appreciate any answer and if needed I could provide picture of my feet and orthodics if neccesary!

Sincerly, Tomas

[courtney]

Tomas, As far as I know you should measure around your foot and the orthotics,

I would strongly recomend finding someone who knows how to measure feet for this, Its pretty hard to get accurate measurements yourself.

Contacting the last maker to find out what they need would be my first step.

They make lasts with extra depth for orthotics.

If you can find a real shoemaker to help you it may save you alot of frustration.

Tim Skyrme's Bespoke shoemaking book talks alittle about measuring and making foot tracing patterns for orthotics, I cant recomend his book enough.

It is pretty confusing figuring how to get those things in there.

Prepare for a lot of heartbreak and frustration, shoemaking is pretty hard.

i have been doing it for about 2 years and just now have boots I can wear that fit my feet and my orthotics.

Good Luck,
Courtney

[fred_coencped]

Tomas,
Janne Melkersson is in Sweden. He is your Guy, Custom orthopedic Shoe Specialist.

My advise Make last with measurements and add Spacer the the last bottom to facilitate the thickness of your Foot Orthotics, OK

What, Who is "Spenle"?

Dick Anderson from Wisconsin, visiting New Mexico for Orthopedic Footwear and Pedorthic Conference says hi to you in Sweden but where do you live?

Janne lives in Ostersund,Sweden and he is on the HCC Colloquoy Say hello from Me...

Fred

[tomasr]

Courtney:
In my area there is no shoemakers at all. Wouldn't know where to get my feet measured. Planning on getting Tim Skyrme's book, but I don't feel quite ready for that investment at the moment. Do you know where I can read about measuring my feet online? Like a guide?

If you take a look at Spenles help section( http://spenle.de/Katalog/lang/en/hilfe.html#oben )
and scroll down there will be an illustration of what measurments they ask for!

So basically I'm looking for how to take these measurement myself with a friend as I understand standing up is requiered. Any help is appreciated!

Fred: Spenle is a German lastmaker. Here's their website: http://spenle.de/Katalog/misc/background.html?lang=de
Unfortunatle I'm unable to go and see Janne. I live in Gothenburg...
(Your name says 'peace' in Swedish, FIY )

/Tomas

[tomasr]

Fred!
Another question. What do you mean by spacer? Do you mean I should put something between the insole and the last, nail the insole on the lasts and remove the spacer when I'm done?

[fred_coencped]

Tomas, You got it! leather,insole board ,hard rubber, anything you can add,
measurements are taken sitting and semi weight bearing, foot tracing where you record measurements is taken standing
always in peace,
Fred

[andre]

Tomas,
you could also try Fagus lasts, again Germans.
http://www.fagus.de/files/pdfs/fagus_gesamt_de.pdf
They are a big company, so for own development Spenle might be better, but they have a big collection, where you could choose from.
I also recommend Tim's book and he also has the books from Koleff, which is worth the investment - if you could learn how to build up lasts, instead of buying every time a new last, I think this would be worth full.

[psrivats]

(double post removed)

(Message edited by psrivats on January 22, 2012)

[psrivats]

A nice set of photos that I found on another forum on shoe fitting -- these were published in Apparel Arts magazine in 1934 and the images are courtesy of Florsheim (not 100% sure about this) "manual" that was used to educate salesmen back in the 30s. I don't think any RTW shops today offer this.

If the moderators feel this is inappropriate here, please feel free to move it elsewhere or delete it.

14299.jpg

1.Measuring the left foot for length—the customer is in a standing position because it is his standing or "walking weight" which determines the maximum expansion of the foot. Note how salesman holds down the toe to secure full length.

14300.jpg

2. Measuring right foot for length—the salesman measures both feet in order to take into account any deviation in size. The same points apply concerning "walking weight" and position of sales-man's hand as at left.

14301.jpg

3. Measuring left foot for width—often overlooked, but none the less important, is the fact that both feet should be measured for width as well as for length. Again measurements should be taken while the customer is standing.

14302.jpg

4. Measuring right foot for width—this completes the measurement of both feet for both length and width. By exerting light pressure on the foot with his thumb the salesman measures the foot at its maximum width.

14303.jpg

14304.jpg

14305.jpg

5. After measuring the feet, the salesman should analyze them for type, there are three basic types of feet with respect to shape, each require-differently shaped last for exact fit. The first type of foot, illustrated at the left, is that which flares to the outside, with about three-fifths of the foot to the outside of an imaginary line drawn through its center. The second type, center, is a straight foot with an equal portion of the foot on each side of the imaginary line. The third type, right, flares to the inside with about three-fifths of the foot to the inside of an imaginary line drawn through its center.

14306.jpg

6. Checking to ascertain whether the ball of foot and ball of shoe coincide. The salesman runs both fingers over the ball of the shoe, as shown, to determine whether the customer may require a longer or shorter arch shoe than he is wearing.

14307.jpg

7. Checking to determine whether the shoe provides a sufficiently smooth and firm support under the arch. If the support is not firm, the foot requires a shoe which provides a more rigid support to the arch.

14308.jpg

8. Checking to ascertain whether the fore part of the shoe is comfortably filled. By running his thumb over the vamp of the shoe, the salesman can easily determine whether the customer may require a wider or narrower width shoe.

14309.jpg

9. Checking to determine whether the outline of the sole of the foot coincides with the outline of the shoe's innersole. The salesman runs his fingers along both edges of the shoe in the manner illustrated.

14310.jpg

10. Checking to insure that there is sufficient room between the end of the great toe and the end of the shoe to allow the foot to expand in walking, considerable pressure must be applied on a hard shoe to perform this check correctly.

14311.jpg

11. Checking to determine whether the shoe lies smoothly over the instep and whether the lace opening is sufficiently wide to take up the natural stretch of the leather. The salesman pinches up his fingers over the instep, as shown.

14312.jpg

12. Checking to insure a snug fit around the top of the quarter of the shoe. If the top of the shoe gaps after the salesman has firmly gripped the counter, the foot may require a last with combination measurements.

14313.jpg

13. Properly creasing the shoe by running a stag bone or buttonhook across the vamp, as indicated. This also provides a general check on fit, since if a shoe is correctly fitted it will crease straight across the vamp.

[jon_g]

I want to try making a boot, similar to the jockey or coachman's boot in the Golding patternmaking book.

My question is, how do I adjust my measurements from the foot to the last, especially regarding the instep and short heel measurements.

Can anyone give me a little insight into this?

[dlskidmore]

I'm a newbie too. Golding has pretty good instructions for making a basic pattern from a last, and modifying the pattern for your style, but I don't yet know how to modify the last for fit.

[janne_melkersson]

Jon,
when I make ridingboots I don't add anything to the last when it is about the instep and the short heel. The tops I make under measured about 1,5 cm both for calf and top measure. But if you are using a shoe last I add a piece of leather at the back of the last so the curve of the heel straightens out. You could add a pice of leather att the peak of the cone but without adding to much on the short heel measurements.

The Derby you posted looked realy good.

Janne

[jon_g]

Janne,

Do you mean that you make the measurements of the last the same as the foot?

For some reason I imagined that you might make the last a little smaller.

If it makes any difference this is not really a riding boot, more of a casual boot in the style of a riding boot.

I am using a shoe last and do plan to add to the back of the heel. Are there any other adjustments I should make?

Thanks for your insights, and the kind words about my gallery post.

[janne_melkersson]

John,
Yes, I make the last the same as the foot measurements. That said, it all depends on the foot. If the foot is "over" flexible I reduce the measurements. I know some make the last with the instep undermeasured and the short heel some plus mm but I have had the best result following the measurements as they are.
Another measurement you can shorten is the short heel on the upper pattern I forget to write that yesterday. The reason for this is that I am treeing my boots up to the clients fit and if it is made to big from the beginning it is harder to crimp then stretching up to fit.

The last riding boot pair I made was for a lady who is not a rider she was about to use it with tight stretch jeans. I made it without reinforcements in the tops and with thinner leather all the way but except from that the same as on a regular riding boot.

Good luck with the boot

Janne

[dw]

I am coming late to this conversation and I don't know that I have all that much to add except to observe that it is always better to learn to take measurements properly...or at least measurements that you can rely upon because they come directly from your hands and not from spurious and arbitrary additions or subtractions.

Since I regard boot lasts and shoe lasts as two different animals, and would not try to make a pull on boot on an unmodified shoe last, I will only say that the instep on a boot last is "squeezed" upward for a very good reason--to allow the leg to be made tighter/narrower at the throat while still allowing reasonable ease of entry.

I suspect that if making a pull-on boot with a shoe last one needs to make the throat of the boot larger.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

DW,
here is photos of the lasts I am using for pull on boots like different styles of riding boots. Both have a straight heel which at least for ridingboots is of importance and both have the same measurments as lasts I am using for shoes. As you can see they go a bit higher up at the front towards the leg then on a regular last for shoes. To create this effect on a "shoe" last you can add leather at the back to straight the heel curve and you can add leather at the front to make it a bit higher. Maybe a boot last and a shoe last is diferent creatures but if so the different is not more then two pieces of leather.


(Message edited by janne melkersson on April 07, 2012)

[janne_melkersson]

Here are the photos


(Message edited by janne melkersson on April 07, 2012)