Fitting the Foot

[jenny_fleishman]

Brendan, here is a photo of the profile of the shoe:

6729.jpg

I think the heel may extend too far back. I believe I have plenty of toe spring, if not too much (about 5/8 of an inch). A few oddities you may notice about the shoe--the toebox is long because I have long toes. The back of the heel doesn't curve in much at the topline because my feet are very sensitive to any pressure in this area.

Jenny

(Message edited by Jenny Fleishman on January 22, 2008)

[artzend]

Jenny,

If anything there is too much toe spring. The heel could be higher. A good rule of thumb (sorry) is to put a forefinger under the toe to guage toe spring (around 10mm) It looks as though the tread line is a bit too far back and a higher heel would solve that too.

Tim

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, Tim. I'm not sure about the tread line. I have a short arch length relative to the length of my foot, and Larry Waller helped me with the tread line, so I'm hoping it's in the right place.

I've thought about trying to lessen the toe spring, but if the tread line is in the right place, not sure how to do it without completely remaking my lasts--probably my next project! Is there any other way to do it?

Jenny

[artzend]

Jenny,

It looks like raising the heel would roll the shoe a bit further forward onto the tread line anyway.

It just looks like the heel is too low for the last. I have seen commercially made shoes like that so it isn't a serious problem unless it puts you back onto the front of the shank. Try another lift or two on the heel, but if it's too high for what you want then that should be ok.

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hi Jenny
Thanks for the pic. well the heel is not to high and it doesn't seem to extend back to far.

You said in an earlier post the shank portion dosn't have a lot of curve heel to ball. you also mention a short arch, This would suggest to say, foot unseen. If you have a high arched more rigid foot? You would need a last with more shape under the arch.

Are you a pronator or supinator?

as Tim suggested add a lift or to see how it feels. then try cutting a taper off the back of the heel like on a work boot. and try it. This should help point you/us to some further suggestions.

Regards
Brendan

[big_larry]

Jenny,

Nice shoes! I really don't have enough experience to be giving anybody else counsel, however I thought I might share my own adventure with you making my pair of shoes.

My shoes are very simular to yours. I used a "roper style" last and as I built the heel stack in place I noticed that I had more toe spring than I wanted. I kept building the heel until the toe spring looked ok and measured 1/2 inch, measured from the plane (flat table top) to the front end of the soul. I ended up with a heel height of 1 1/2 inches, not counting the layer of soling. When you add the sole layer, the insole thickness, the liner and lasting build up I gained a 2inch raise. I stand 6'-4" in bare feet so it gives me a pretty good altitude.

I remembered that my Merrell Boot School Instructor told us that in the "old days" there were some bootmakers that added a bit of "Heel Spring" with the notion that it would provide a more natural entry into the gait, and that the toe spring would facilitate the "rolling effect" as one completed the step. I took this opportunity to add about 1/16 of an inch "heel spring." This means that the rear part of the heel is just a tiny bit raised off the table.

In addition, I added a glued on thin layer of oak-tan leather on the front sole to thicken the front sole and make the shank area appear to be thinner. I wear them to church and dressup occassions. I used a lot of black shoe polish so my, less than professional, stitching blends right in and is not so noticable. Thank you for sharing your "shoe adventure."

Again, I want to compliment you on a fine job of shoe makin'.

I wish you well, Larry Peterson

[jenny_fleishman]

re the heel height...the lasts are meant for a 5/8 inch heel. I added a depth spacer to the bottom of the last so there would be room for an orthotic, and the spacer is 1/8" at the forefoot and 1/4" at the heel. So to compensate, when I built the heel, I made only a 1/2" heel since the extra thickness of the heel of the orthotic would add another 1/8 inside the shoe relative to the forefoot.

Jenny

[artzend]

Jenny,

What you add inside really has no bearing on the heel height of the last. Even with the inside buildup, your last should still be the same heel height. The only way it would differ would be to have differing thicknesses and I don't think the difference between the heel and forepart is enough to alter that.

It looks as though the last was made for a much higher heel. If you put the last on a flat surface and put your forefinger under the toe, then measure the height that the back of the heel is from the surface, that will give you a good idea of the heel height required. The purists will tell you that the measurement should be under the centre of the heel so you can measure it where you like but I would be interested to see what you get when you do that. Could you photograph from the side while doing that?

Tim

[jenny_fleishman]

Tim, when I made the lasts I put in about 5/8" toe spring and located the tread line with that toe spring. So if I lower the toe spring, the treadline location will change. Also, my feet can't tolerate a higher heel than 5/8."

Next time I revise my lasts I'll probably reduce the heel height to 1/2" and also lessen the toe spring. In the meantime, I think I'm stuck with this toe spring! I need to make two pairs of shoes on these lasts--one for dancing and one for walking, before I can take the lasts out of shoemaking production and revise them. At the rate I'm going, that may be a year from now!

Jenny

[mac]

Jenny,

Trust me,
There are a large number of people who have been watching your progress. Your patience and determination have been admirable! Seriously, I'm REALLY impressed with your shoes.

I agree with Tim here. Looking at your shoes, adding a small layer to the heel would reduce the toe spring and decrease the "slap." Yes your treadline is in the right place but the heel looks too low... kinda hard to put into words.

Most people with your foot type(I've looked at your pictures) Do well with a small heel... this may explain your heel discomfort with all your flat shoes. But, too high of a heel will increase toe pressure. It's a balancing act.

Before you change the last again, please add a 1/4 inch to the heel and try it out ok? Heck, try 1/8 of an inch. What do you have to lose??? You can always take it off, right?

Sean

[romango]

When taking measurements on the foot and last, making sure you measure across the top of the foot or last in a consistent way can be problematic.

I came up with this jig to hold a laser pen which allows me to accurately find points on the top of the foot and last that are perpendicular to a line on the pedograph paper.

Using this tool, I am able to very accurately get the measure of the foot circumference at a number of cross sections and take that same circumference measurement on the last.

I have been taking these measurements in addition to the usual ball, instep, short-heel etc. for use as a cross check.

This device looks fairly elaborate. It is really just a jig for sharpening wood plane blades, that I found at a garage sale, with a laser pen attached. In an earlier version, I just mounted the laser pen on a block of wood. That worked too but was not as slick as this version.

7504.jpg

I made a YouTube video, if you want to see it in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCKGhv_SS9M

[dearbone]

Rick,

Nice work, A shoemaker once said, "Give an American an idea and he will build you a machine or a device out of it, having said that, now if you can find a laser that can scan the circumference of the foot where those lines you made and measuring them with the laser without you measuring the foot and than the last,i will invest in your company,BTW have seen Bill's lightbeam foot scanner?

Regards Nasser

[romango]

I wouldn't mind having a lightbeam scanner but I'm guessing it would be a hefty investment. I've got only $15. in this device.

I look at it as solving one of the two problems of measuring with a tape. It solves the problem of reproducibly transferring a measurement from a location on the foot to the corresponding location on the last.

The remaining problem is having the right tension on the tape to account for things like socks, amount of foot swelling and fleshiness of the foot. Even the lightbeam can't take those into account.

To be fair, however, the light beam can probably give you a short-heel and long-heel. My laser tool can't do that.

Even with the best technology available today there are components of art and instinct involved in measuring. I'm not expecting to come up with methods that change this situation but rather tools like my little laser help me develop my instinct. I can imagine a day when I don't think the laser is useful anymore. I'm just not that good yet.

I bet some of our more seasoned members are rolling their eyes at this little trick but they have developed their art of measuring over a longer period of time than I.

[relferink]

Rick,

Finally saw your Youtube video. A message kept coming up that the video was no longer available. Turned out to be a compatibility problem with something on my computer. You learn something new every day

Not to take away from your approach, I'm not so sure that the method demonstrated in the video will give you reliable results. I understand the frustration you must have transferring seemingly random measurements from the foot to a last and on a logical level your approach makes sense.

Where it does not work is in measuring the foot. You should lay the measuring tape to follow the contours of the foot. When you don't and are focused on measuring perpendicular to the floor surface you loose sight of the natural proportions.
For example when measuring the midfoot, across the metatarsals your measurement should run perpendicular to the metatarsal bones, not the floor. As long as you mark the position of your tape on your imprint you can transfer this spot very precisely to your last.
A second area where your system will give you a unreliable measurement if once you start looking at a last that has more than 15 to 20 mm heel height. If you set the last with the heel to the floor (not on heel height) you change the angle of the measurement significantly.

I hope this makes sense. It's easier to demonstrate than to put in words but without a video camera and enough youtube furstration for one night this will have to do


Rob

[romango]

Rob,

I can see your point about the heel height but I am unclear what you mean about loosing sight of the natural proportions.

Keep in mind that I am using this method in addition to the usual measurements, such as across the ball. To my mind, the laser assisted measurements are just additional data at 1 inch increments. If they were all you had, yes, you would fail to capture prominent features. But I don't see them as misleading when used in conjunction with the usual measurements, unless I am not understanding your point.

- chow, Rick

[relferink]

Rick,

I did not realize you use this measuring tool in addition to your standard measurements. The element of your tool that may do you more harm than good it that it measures perpendicular to the floor. Looking at the metatarsal bones they run in roughly a 15 degree angle. (don't quote me on this number, it's an educated guess on my part. Can't remember the angle). If you insist on measuring perpendicular to the floor your tape will most of the time not lay securely against the foot. This will throw off your measurement and make it hard to repeat a specific measurement consistently.
This image may clear up what I mean:

7571.jpg

The red line is perpendicular to the floor but does not follow the flow of the foot, the green line lays perpendicular to the metatarsals, following the natural flow of the foot.
By adding these potentially inconsistent measurements you make it much harder on yourself than it should be.

Just my

Rob

[btippit]

Rob's picture also illustrates the way I measure lasts. I was taught on all girth measurements where the tape goes across the bottom of the last to keep the tape as flat as possible. So when I started using CAD I made the sections I used for girth measurements perpendicular to the centerline of the bottom of the last as illustrated in the picture below.

7587.gif

This is also the method used with the lightbeam. It's all about consistency...from last to last and more importantly from last to foot.

You can illustrate why this is important by marking an instep measurement on a low heel last using the perpendicular to the floor method and then doing the same with a very high heel last and you should see that the two measurements don't look anything alike except for the location point along the cone or wherever your point of reference to place the laser is.

If the last were elevated to the heel height position rather than just laying it on the floor or table, it would help but the difference in the angles of the girth sections to the bones or the bottom of the last would still be pretty far off.

Bill “The Last Man Standingâ€

[romango]

Bill and Rob,

I have described using the laser tool to take girth measurements perpendicular to the floor. I take your points about the advisability of this approach. The perpendicular measurements are really tangential to the basic utility of the laser tool.

The laser allows you to easily transfer points from the top of the last (or foot) perpendicularly down to the floor (pedograph).

This would apply to standard measurements too. You may mark where the standard measurement cut across the top of the foot (ball, short heel instep etc) on a piece of tape and easily transfer those marks to your pedograph. From there, transfer them to the top of the last. The laser makes this process very easy and accurate compared to using a square and bench edge as DW describes here: http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12594#p12594

Could be this is all overkill. I need to use it several times to see if it really has any value.

[paul]

Hello Rick,

Hey, I'm getting ready to send your three-buck-chuck imprinting photos to possibly my first remote customer (in Alaska!), with instructions on how to gather the info I'll need to make a pair of boots for him.

What kind of paper worked out best for you?

Are there any other suggestions you might share on this imprinting technique?

Thank you,
Paul

[romango]

I just used printer paper. I had some 24 lb legal paper that is a little nicer because it is more absorbent but I think you can get away with just about anything.

Make sure to have them really shake their foot well before placing on paper. You want to minimize any bleeding.

That's all I can think of. Good luck!

[paul]

Thank you.

I was thinking the "shaking" part would be important.

Paul

[dw]

All,

I might throw the following out just as a temporary segue from the last itself to how it fits...

I have a customer whose feet I have never seen. I have his measurements (self taken), however. He has no apparent foot problems nor any history of foot problems and is easily fit "off the rack."

I built him a fitter's model on the other West End last that I posted photos of some weeks (?) ago).

This last comes to me highly recommended and I have built shoes for myself on it using leathers as diverse as a four ounce veg calf to a two ounce boar. They all seem to fit fine (not counting the heel blister problem mentioned above).

My customer, upon trying on the fitter's model, says that they fit beautifully...until he starts walking. At which time, the toes on one foot seem slightly snug.

This last has a "wide round" toe and a 6/8" heel.

I am awaiting the return of the fitter's model and a more detailed explanation of the problem but this seems odd to me. There should be plenty of room in the toe, the heel height should forestall any tendency to slide forward and, as well, I am pretty careful about the long heel measurement. The the fitter's model is only one layer of 3 ounce over the forefoot, I tend to rule out the leather being too heavy and thus causing unwelcome creasing.

But I am at a loss for possible explanations and wondered if anyone had any suggestions--other, perhaps less obvious, reasons than come readily to my mind.

Oh! for the simplicity of fitting a pair of boots!


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[relferink]

DW,

I guess the lack of response does indicate that this is a head scratcher but you have likely figured that out for yourself.
Does the heel slip when he walks? You don't mention it and I assume you asked. The thing that comes to mind is the placement of the ball. If the ball of the last is placed a little far forward the foot will migrate forward, more so when your customer starts walking. Could it be that the toe box is a little shallow, either more so on one side or one of the feet is more comfortable with a higher toe box?

I'll be curious what you find when the fitter comes back.

Rob

[dw]

Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I got the fitters model back. I can't tell what is going on. The marks that the customer made were on either side of the foot, ahead of the treadline. I am going to try giving him some more room on the sides of the last and on the dorsal surface of the forepart. If that doesn't work then I guess I'll look at whether the last is too long from heel to ball but I have a stick on the customer's foot and I don't feel that the last is too long. That said this is a new last for me and even though I have made shoes for myself on it, I may have to re-learn fitting for this last.

As for lack of response...I'm philosophical about it. Sometimes I'm not exactly sure what to say, either, so pass on any response.

On the other hand, my theory is that if you want the forum to be there for you, you have to be there for forum members. It cannot be a one way street.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Membe

[dearbone]

DW,

If it it is only the toe area that is snug while standing/walking, than beside looking at adding to the sides of lasts,you might be able to rectify by adding a piece of leather to the bottom of the last,under the toe area,or you may extend it to the bottom of the plate,if you wish to add a little to the instep area,what i am trying to say here i guess, you might need the depth rather than the width sorted out.

Nasser