Fitting the Foot

[big_larry]

D.W., Rob and friends,

I would like to share two situations I have dealt with this last two years. As a student level boot maker I certainly do not claim to have all, or maybe not even most, of the answears. Anyway.

I built a pair of packers for a young lady and I think she was quite pleased with them, however, she ordered a pair of western style boots and brought it to my attention that the left foot was uncomfortable to the bottom of her foot. I told her that they take a while yo break in.

I was inspecting the castings of her feet from last year and I had missed seeing that the padded part under the first met' was a whole lot more raised up (or down, depending on how you view it, than on the right foot. The padding under the 4th and 5th met' was also prominent and there was a pronounced valley between the two. The measurements were right on the money as far as fit. My lasts have rounded, flat bottoms, just like Jones and Vining made them. I guess I could argue that it was not my fault that her feet were abmormal, but that "wouldn't feed the bull dog" nor solve the problem. I am adding a bit of material to the bottom to assist the breaking in of the foot bed. The pedograph jut didn't look that bad as far as weight distribution. "Live and learn."

Another issue was for a fellow that had hammer toes. The box toe (toe box) edge was built right over the area that the second toe had it's highest point. It wore a raw spot every time he wore them for any length of time. He told me that the boots fit like house slippers and that as long as he wasn't walking they were fine. He had solved the problem by wrapping the toe with "duct tape" when he was wearing them all day. I hope that over time the pressure from the hammer toe will make a concave area to remeady the problem.

I thought I would share these two quirks and hope that you can work out a solution. I wish I had a suggestion for that specific problem. I am limited by my own ignorance, however, as time gos on I am getting smarter. (I might be awfull' dumb, but I'm not stupid."

I suspect that the solution will emerge. Now there is another issue. Some folks come into this world with disorders that are pretty much apparent by the time they reach early adulthood. We all know about the anti-social, narcissitic, sociopathic , etc,. In addition there are some folks that are not happy with any situation, no matter how fine it may be. A dead givaway is when they say "I did just what you told me and look how terrible it turned out." These folks are not happy in a marriage and are always blaming their mate for their not being happy. "If it weren't for you I could....." I don't know what percentage of the population this group make up, but My guess is that about one out of a hundred fit this pattern. It would follow that statistically, about one (1) out of every 100 clients could verywell be a "contra'ar." This is just a thought. No matter what you do, the product may not ever be right.

Best wishes,

Larry Peterson

"All the Indians in South America walk in a straight line, at least the one I saw did."

[dw]

All,

This is an interesting problem (now that I am beginning to think I see what's going on)...

I have never seen this customer's foot. It is all by mail. That said, I have a good (reliable) stick on the foot and of course, the feedback I get from the fitter's model and email correspondence with the customer.

I have queried him closely and he tells me that there is no slipping in the heel...even when he walks. Further, he tells me that he does not feel any forward movement of the foot in general as he walks and that there is no pressure behind the ball pushing the foot forward. In fact, his very words are "the shoe seemed to fit perfectly except for that tighness on the sides as my foot bent."

I am thinking that I am encountering a problem that I don't see often in boots where the foot is on a higher heel--that of the forefoot spreading as the customer walks.

I have a quasi-footprint of his foot (derived from sticking a pencil under the edge of the foot, at an angle, and tracing around the foot where it touches the ground) and it is "weight-on." But of course, no one knows how accurate it really is.

If my assumption is correct, I wonder how often this forefoot spreading (beyond the margins of a weight-on footprint) during walking is?

Anyone seen this before?

And if so, how does one recognize it when looking at a static pedograph/footprint?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[big_larry]

D.W.,

I have been "wondering" along with you and I would like to explore a possible dynamic. The "Cuboid is the curvature or roll of the outside surface of te last. I know you already know this, however I am thinking out loud. The cuboid extends rearward from the break of the ball. (no pun intended,) The corresponding part of the foot, in this case, I will refere to it as the cuboid, I am sure, is thicker on some feet than others. Mr. Merrell had us watch the client walk away and toward us during the measuring phase of training. I don't think the cuboid stretching would be visable just watching the client walk.

If this roll of tissue is pushed out as the person takes a normal step, the only way I can think of to observe this would be in a transparent boot. This doesn't seem to be very practical so client report may be the only way to detect this dynamic. I think is is quite likely that your client experiences some expansion of the for-foot when walking, I think most folks do, and if the cuboid also flattens out or expands the resulting tightness might be a combination effect. Just a thought.

If I were making a boot for someone that had this process going on, assuming that I was aware of it, I think I would comprimise and add a little side allowence but not so much as to comprimise the symetry of the boot. I would hope that after wearing the boot for a while, mother nature would form and reform the fit to the correct and comfortable shape. I know that folks with bunyons tend to form fit after a while.

Please let us know how this turns out, especially in the long run.

I wish you well! Larry Peterson

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

DW
Just a thought! Perhaps the shank is to far forward, and the flexed foot is deforming laterally.
My two cents
Regards
Brendan

[luckyduck]

Here is a question that I am not sure if this is the correct place for, but will try.

I am working at making a molded leather insert, particularly it should have metatarsal arch support and actually match the bottom of the foot. Sort of like an orthotic or customized version of the store bought one. It is not for any major foot deformities, just comfort.

How would you folks make that? My thought is to mold veg tan to a cast of the foot bottom and then sand the bottom of the veg tan smooth. Then lightly glue it into the shoe. And a follow on question: How to you all make the cast of the foot bottom? Even a reference book I could get or something would be very helpfull,too.

Thanks

Paul

[paul]

Paul,

This question is in danger of getting lost, and it's a good one. Guys with more experience than I will have a better answer, but I thought I'd share what I thought when I read your senario. If I'm way off base, maybe someone will get us back on track.

A molded veg tan insole, for comfort not correction, could be made by casing the leather first and letting it dry back to dry color. Just enough moisture in the fibers to hold a shape. Then lay it against your customers foot and press and shape it as desired.

Use the bottom of the last as a perimeter when you trim, and make room for it in the shoe by adding a similar thickness to the bottom of the last when lasting.

I hope this will get the conversation going again.

Paul

[dw]

Paul K, Paul O,

Thanks for bumping this post. I hate it when someone asks an important question and in the buzz of other discussions, it gets lost. I especially hate it when it happens to my questions.

I think your approach is the way I would do it, as well. You might take a plaster cast of the foot and mold the insole around the bottom of it. This would, I think, create a more positive impression...a more definite contour...than trying to mold it around the flesh of the foot.

You might also fill the concavities that are created on the underside of the (now dry) insole with cork or soft leather to help preserve that shape. Bring the underside up to a level surface and then when you slip the insole into the shoe, it won't flatten out.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[luckyduck]

Thanks for the info Paul and DW. Sometimes I think of something to try and it is nice to bounce it off others before going miles down a dead end road.

The mold of the foot bottom sounds ideal for my comfort goal (My wife thought the molding to her foot would tickle too much . Anything really corrective I send to the pedorthist in town.

Would you do the mold with the foam box you step in, or some other way?

I'll post pictures once this little project is done in a couple weeks.

Thanks again.

Paul

[dearbone]

I have a question(s)regarding hammer toe,i had a referral customer last week with a hammer toe only on one foot,the big toe is pushed out of line toward the other toes and making one second toe raise and over riding(lapping)the third,he has bunions on both feet,he has ordered 4 pairs and possibly 3 more pairs after,i will of course make him one to try before i make the real things,but here is my question,can a hammer toe be put back in it's place without much pain? if not, how mush room do i need to allow?i forgot to take a picture of his feet,but i think i can call him back for that. any suggestions from the orthopedic makers or others who might had such customer is very appreciated. Thank you.

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

I'm not an expert in this but as I understand it, "hammer toes" are a result of fallen metatarsals. I think the bunions and the first toe being pushed in may be related but are not the direct cause of the hammer toe. I have seen bunions and deviated firsts with no hammer toes...and vice versa.

I too await the expert opinions...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[artzend]

Nasser

I would not call myself expert but all I did with this sort of problem was to just build up over the toe area until it was high enough to clear the toe. It doesn't show as being unusual once the shoe has been made, normally. Just blend the build up out a bit, and watch where you put seams.

I never tried to sort out the toes, I don't think it's possible, so I just made the shoe fit.

I could be wrong though and feedback from a trained orthopaedic shoemaker would be good.

Tim

[jask]

I see a lot of hammertoe problems in our Orthotic shop... almost all of them will benefit from extra depth shoes, most should be fitted with custom foot orthotics to help address/reduce the problems that caused the hammertoes, and a lot of them can reduce some of the "clawing" by putting a metatarsal mound behind the metatarsal arch. This needs to be fitted to each person to get the best effect,so don't expect a generic off the shelf Met. pad to work for every foot.

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Nasser
I'll give you my 2 cent's.
Depends on a couple things, The toes are probabley nearly fixed in that position. Good metatarsel support is going to help!
But nothing short of surgery will straighten them.

How much flexablity is left in the toes? Is there a callous pad at the bottom of the toe/toes were they meet the insole?

If the toes want to go down(as seen with the callous) give them a pocket to sink in to and then measure how much you have to build up the top of the last to accomodate the toes.

If the toes are fixed then all you can do is add to the hight of the toe box.

Can you take a Harris mat pressure print? and scan it?

I'm not sure what style of footwear you are going to make , if you can incorporate some rockering to the sole, it would also help. Assuming there is a lot of arthritis in these feet.

I build my toe boxes with a soft top so if the foot if/ and when the foot changes it has some place to go.
Send pics
Regards
Brendan

[dearbone]

Gentlemen thank you for your generous input,i feel a little more prepared going about this, he has fallen metatarsals big time and he wears some meta supports with cushion beneath the ball of the foot,so i think he got that part looked after,he wears or i should say used to wear straight elongated shoes in Derby, oxfords and some apron shoes,i have a good last for him,but was not sure how to accommodate for the hammer toe on one foot,i prefer to add to the bottom of the toe(last)fearing any adding on the top of last will be harder to blend.
Brendan, the only person i know with a scanner is Bill,the Lastman. Thanks again.

regards
Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Sorry, I missed this bit...I don't think a hammer toe can be corrected short of surgery. As I understand it, the same thing happens to the metatarsal joint as happens when you get a bunion on the first or big toe--the joint opens up and calcium slowly accretes in the gap as a defense mechanism.

As for blending in the allowance...my policy is always to put the build up where the problem actually is, if I possibly can. Yes, it looks a little weird at first (until the shoe breaks in) but if the customer has a hammer toe, he has a hammer toe, if you see what I mean. That's the reality, in other words. And sometimes both the customer and the maker has to deal with what is, as it is.

Just my

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

DW,

Thank you for the medical tips,i think most of us boot and shoe makers will meet a lot of folks with feet problems wanting classical lines,which they can no longer find in stores,this customer is in the public eyes and dresses in suits and therefore dress shoes,likely he has very fine feet in size 12 and the hump(hammer toe) is not severe.DW, i see your logic in building up where the problem is and i will try it,but i am so worried about a wing tip shoe he choose and the rest are also have toe caps,i will let you know how my fitter works and thanks for all your advice.

Regards
Nasser

[big_larry]

A short "side bar,"

Hammer toes can be a genetic condition. I have this condition and was evaluated for corrective surgury. It was explained to me that the condition is "Familial" and can jump generations. The more common "dominant and recessive" rules do not seem to directly apply.

Some medical conditions fall into this pattern.

I have a pair of boots that the box toe is covering too much of the toe area. The result is that without the assistance of a taped toe, the edge wears on the top of the 2nd toe. This was a good learning lesson in toe box design.

I totally concure that making adaquit space for the toe to live comfortably, is the solution. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!

Larry Peterson

[headelf]

I learned some tough lessons from a customer with hammer toes so bad the profile of his foot looked like this:--^-. When adding the extra real estate to accommodate the scrunched up toes, you can create an upper that is hard to remove from the last, particularly if wet lasting. Even with a lot of talcum powder, tore an upper and bent the pin on a lasting stand during an early experimental pair. Selecting the right style from the start helps a lot. A tie shoe that opens far down the vamp toward the toes helps regulate the extra room for the teepee toes yet allows tightening the laces around the instep. Loafers were not a good style choice, even with elastic under the instep of the plug. Not enough control of fit to allow for the toes and still hold the shoe to the foot. The laced shoe also drew the eye away from the torked up toes better than the plain expanse of the loafer vamp plug. Got in right in the end but it took a few fitters. Just my experience.

Georgene

[fred_coencped]

Nasser,
Consider adding extra depth to your last by incorporating a 3/16th" spacer to the bottom of your last.This will enable the wearer to add a custom fooot orthotic.The causes of the bunion should be addressed as excessive pronatory motion is generally the cause of the 1st metatarsal migrating medially.Hence when the medial column is overloaded and the little toes are trying to grab the ground contracting muscles on the bottom and top of the foot fail to relax.
Make a smooth transition at the top of the last to accomodate the hammer toe.Definetly avoid a toe cap seam over the hammertoe.
Blocking excessive pronation starts with a medial heel wedge which would be achieved with a good foot orthotic.

The forefoot is probably everted[valgus] against the rearfoot and a functional orthotic to align the foot is advised,this is to align the foot through the gait cycle to insure the foot will supinate at midstance and vector forces will move laterally so all 5 metatarsals plantarflex at heel lift.The foot should begin to supinate at midstance/heel lift into toe off.

Fred

[dearbone]

Thank you for all of your suggestions, tips and stories about hammer toes,i am glad i asked the question before even started,i will keep those recommendations as i prepare my last for these shoes,gladly i recently bought a size 12 blanks and they are still meaty up front which i can work with. Georgene,i thought of what you said about adding real estate and than removing the last when i was sticking a piece of leather to the bunion area on the last which look awful at first,but when i sanded it down to blend as far as possible,it looked alright.

Fred, As usual i read what you said over and over,i finally understood it.Thank you

Regards
Nasser

[paul]

Mi Amigo Fred,
You have such a way with words.
Paul

[jon_g]

This has to be one of the most difficult parts of this job, and if you don't get it right it doesn't matter how much effort you put into making the finished shoe, they'll just look nice on your own shelf. I guess that's one way to collect some examples of our work.

I'm wondering if anyone knows of a book on the subject of fitting lasts to feet? Not the most romantic of subjects, but one I'd like to know more about.

Jon

[dw]

Jon,

That would definitely be a "must have" book.

It's hard though because when you run across instructions in older books...and I think, if I recall correctly, that Golding has a section devoted to fitting...the girth locations and the procedures are often different enough from contemporary methods that it can really confuse a person.

And to top it all off, most authorities recommend making adjustments in the girth measurements to accommodate different leathers and different thicknesses of leather.

There's a whole thread here devoted to Sabbages Sectionizer...which is one gateway to fitting...but I don't know too many shoemakers (nevermind bootmakers) who are familiar with it much less really understand how useful it is.

Of course, bootmakers, such as myself, have a different approach simply because on boots there are no laces to make those subtle or not-so-subtle adjustments.

Making the transition from fitting for boots...which I fit to be perfectly comfortable with, ideally, no slack leather over the instep or joints...is problematic because a shoe fit that way will be too tight.

I think the critical issue and the starting point has to be to obtain and use an accurate footprint...making sure that the last closely duplicates the heel seat width and forepart width. Once you have that, girths can be adjusted relative to how tight you are pulling the tape and how accurately you are measuring (some makers seem, in an overabundance of optimism or enthusiasm, to believe that adding a, surely arbitrary, amount to a girth measurement will ensure a fit...and for all feet. I'm not one of them.)

Anyway there's my two cents...take it for what it's worth-

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

Ah-men brother. The foot is a wily beast, in the best of circumstances. Feet can change up to an entire size from morning to evening.

I think the first step is to be consistent in how you measure. Follow some method but get a feel for how tight you hold the tape measure and how well that works out over time.

Be very aware of how normal or strange your customer's feet are. The worst case is a deformed foot on a customer that doesn't seem aware of that fact. This usually ends in tears, unless you are a trained pedorthist.

On the other hand, someone with a problem, who knows they have a problem, can be a very appreciative customer.

that's my 1.5 cents

[jesselee]

Jon

Golding et al complicated matters which the modern lasts even complicated even more. A modern fit is what most people puzzle over with complicated CAD designs and other things I personally find irrelevant to fitting. I have tried on high end boots that have a sloping heel ie. back of the heel is higher than the breast of the heel and the ball area was as wide as my foot and found great discomfort. In other words they would look great in a photo sitting down. Its not that I am only used to a 19th century fit, but no modern fit works because I have experienced the old timey measure and fit and notice wht is wrong.
Not wanting to disagree with DW that a book could be written on the subject, but IMHO, such a book would detract from already lost information. It would complicate issues.
Telling you how a 19th. century measure and fit is would not help if you make modern footwear ie. a modern boot, no matter how well made on a 19th. century last looks awful as does a repro pair of 19th century boots on a modern last look absolutely dreadful.
I would simply suggest to concentrate on the arch and the heel measurement, the waist and toe area are incidental.

So, in 19th century fitting as I have worn and made for 45 years, the length is dependant on the toe of the last. A duckbill type toe can be up to 2 inches beyond foot length. If it is a high toe, give an inch. The measurments are taken at the instep (mid), waiste and toe bones (ball). The last to be fitted should be between 3/4 and 1 inch smaller than the foot at the instep and 1/2 to 3/4 in. smaller at the ball. This depends on if the foot is fleshy or boney. The arch should be 1 to 1 1/2, smaller than the foot tracing and the widest part 3/4 to 1 in. narrower than the ball. The heel measurement should be 1/2 to 1 inch smaller than the throat (depending on the type of fit you want. I go 3/4 in/ smaller.
I know none of this translates to modern measurements, but this is the formula used throughout the late 18th and all of the 19th century. Sounds crazy but gives a perfect fit.

Cheers,

JesseLee