Fitting the Foot

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#426 Post by anakim »

Oh! I see you have already done it!
I can't keep up. No complaints though. Its one of my favourite things to do, reading the forum. Here goes.. .
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#427 Post by dw »

lancepryor » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:37 am wrote:DW:
thanks for posting those images. Very interesting.

So, related question: have folks ever modified the rear of the last to have a heel curve of greater than 5mm, to attempt to have the heel seat actually sit exactly the same place as the print?

Lance
I don't believe in the 5mm bit. Each foot, depending on its "temper," will print differently. 5mm is just another "guess."

DAS showed me a last that had no featherline. If I understood correctly, he said featherlines were a function of manufacturing processes.

I have made one or two pairs with no featherline around the heel...generally when I was trying to make a contoured, "up-in-the-waist" insole.

Cutting he featherline away opens up all kinds of possibilities such as you suggest.

That said, it's not easy to determine where to trim the insole when there is no featherline. I guess I'm a coward or just a stickler for empirical things but I prefer a featherline on my lasts.

How would we ever create a bottom paper??? :crackup:
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#428 Post by anakim »

That last post showing the relatively narrow forepart of the last compared to the guys foot is really helpful.
I have already modified a few pairs of lasts and after looking through Sabbage to find out about heel to ball I read some stuff about fitting the other aspects , and am starting to think about this, so that picture is really timely for me. My test subject, a good friend with very narrow feet with a long big toe that spread almost inward medially, plus some area on the lateral (?) Outside between little toe metatarsal and heel. I had originally added a lot of room for the big toe, on a narrow toed last. I must go read that chapter again but it looks like you are doing the same as Sabbage says, (the opposite of what I did), which stands to reason!
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#429 Post by dw »

One of the most useful bits that came out of this discussion..IMO...is the independently arrived at conclusion by Lance and myself (here), that there is no significant difference in the "stick" of the last and the bottom paper. So either way works.

Now, I may have misunderstood Lance or it may be dependent on the model of last or some other factor but for me, at least, it is far easier to slap a bottom paper in-between the end points of the foot frame than to try to jockey around a clumsy and potentially misinterpreted 3D chunk of wood or plastic.

As for making room for the "big toe" yes, you should...but it is easy to overdo. If the toe doesn't fill the medial space you create with build-ups, the shoe will tend, over time to crease alongside the toe. And there is no uglier effect.

It's all (everything we've been discussing) reason aplenty for "fitter's models."
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#430 Post by dw »

This whole discussion dredges up memories and trains of thought that I haven't visited for years and years...over forty, in some instances.

I don't really know and can't say for certain why I started using bottom papers for this process but I have a vague (apocryphal?) memory of having had a very highly respected model maker tell me that I could do it that way. No difference, no harm no foul.

I used to get all my lasts from an independent lastmaker...I can't even remember his whole name (Paul Mulcahey, or something like that) but I always called him "Mac." He was a great mentor to me and gave me a lot of insights into lasts and fitting feet. And when I asked him questions, he couldn't answer, he referred me to the modelmaker I mentioned above.

I don't remember the modelmaker's name at all but, IIRC, the last time I talked to him he had just had a heart-attack while driving and had crashed his sports car.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#431 Post by anakim »

DW, in your photo of the imprint with insole/bottom paper superimposed, on Nov. 3, there is a small bit of the footprint sticking out beyond the bottom paper on the medial side just below the joint. I am finding this problem in 3 feet/lasts i am working with. In this case, I assume you would add a bit to the last in that spot?
Also, would you ever rotate the last further medially to cover that spot and then shave off a bit right at the joint? The reason I am asking this is that there is not much if any of the footprint hanging over on the lateral side of the foot, as well as a big toe sticking out pretty far on the medial side, of course!
In addition, when looking at Golding, volume 4 fitting up lasts, it would indicate the center of the toe of the last should be shifted far towards the medial side of foot (from that exercise where you measure the heel seat and then find the point in toe area with same width, draw parallel lines and center toe of the last in the middle of that, to find the appropriate last shape). In contradiction, however, volume 2 about last making says to draw a line from heel straight through the second toe, which in my case of the severely medially deviating big toe, gives a dramatically different result. Obviously i cant simply follow rules here without putting some critical thinking into action, but there may be certain thing i should or shouldnt do that im unaware of.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#432 Post by anakim »

Perhaps what i should have clarified first is whether the bottom paper or last feather edge should coincide with the footprint both slightly below and at the ball joint. It seems the joints i am dealing with are all a little indented with respect to the padding heelward, as compared to the last profiles. Is this normal, do i ignore it or make the last curvier to follow the print more precisely?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#433 Post by dw »

First, an observation: people (mostly beginners and wanna-bes) talk about "learning" to make shoes from videos and forums and so forth. Some things can be learned, of course, but the really important parts are much more difficult. This is a good example.

I cannot...no one can...offer a course on how to fit up feet on the best of forums. Feet are too complicated. I cannot even know for certain what you are having trouble with. Or how to help you. With regard to your questions, most of what I am doing is guessing and trying to clearly express what I do. Because I am not seeing what you're seeing, because I don't have the feet in front of me, guessing is all I can do. And guessing wrong is often the likely outcome.

Beyond that, the bottom paper in the photo you mentioned could be shifted slightly medially...until the edge of it touches the red line. If there is still some print showing behind the bottom paper, yes, you could place a build-up to cover it. Or you could decide the bottom paper/last was a little too long. Or you could ignore it.

These are judgement calls. It might even be that, with some other adjustments, all three of those solutions would work. A "fitter's model" can "proof" your judgment call.

The red lines on the data sheet are there partially to contain the bottom paper. To indicate boundaries, limits, parameters. If you set the red lines up correctly, the bottom paper/last should not overlap them much, if any, esp. on the medial side. You can play with the lateral side of the foot (a little) or fudge a bit at the heel but fit and structural integrity are entirely linked to the medial side of the foot.

In order to fit a foot you have to understand the foot. The medial ball joint isn't going to move and since it is a focal point of the skeletal structure it has to be respected. Toes can move. They will move...of their own accord. Fleshy areas can be "fudged"...sometimes should be fudged. But, IMO, everything depends on the relationship of the calcaneus, the medial arch formed by the Tarsus Seven and the medial ball joint. Ignore that structure at your own risk.

When the foot flares medially, yes, the forepart of the last must be adjusted to accommodate and reflect that deviation but the bottom paper and the last still sits on the red line, still depends on the medial ball joint. (The only time this will not be true is when the foot is so damaged that an accretion of calcium has formed a bunion at the medial joint.)

The Line Of Muscular Action runs between the first metatarsal head and the second. It must...you made it that way. Most of the time the toe of the last will, more or less, center on the LOMA, but that is again dependent on the particular foot as well as the last itself.

Fitting is a lifetime study. Understanding the foot is more than a lifetime of study. And that means trial, and failure, and observation, and thought and deliberation, and a flexibility of mind. Not every apparent solution will work in every situation--the foot is too complicated. And every person (and every foot) is an individual and different. The rules are there to guide you. But if you're trying to "follow rules" from this person and that person and an unknown third party...all at once...you'll fail every time.

You can't just...willy-nilly...pick up any last regardless of shape or attention to the constraints of good foot mechanics and health and expect it to work. It's all interdependent. You can't arbitrarily pick and choose bit and pieces from Golding and Frommer and expect good results. Especially not when you are still learning. (I did not post all the above as a tutorial. I posted it as insight to one approach--mine.)

And FWIW, Golding is not a coherent voice or approach--that's its strength and its weakness. It is a compendium of many different voices. For the experienced shoemaker it is invaluable, for the novice it can undoubtedly be confusing. The same is true here on the Crispin Colloquy.

My best advice is to pick one person and one person's vision and follow it until you understand it thoroughly. Don't mix and match. It is a recipe for frustration.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#434 Post by anakim »

Thanks for your answer. I apologize for probably asking too many questions. I do not want to be seen as being disrespectful of the tradition of learning in person, nor of the lifetime of dedication and hard work you and many others have put in. I am not one of those people who believe i can just learn everything online, though i suppose i have been acting like that. I did take an introduction course with Nasser, and essentially need to practice the making part of what he taught me. Before I put a lot of work into making my uppers and the (for me difficult) process of inseaming and so on, I wanted to give my best shot at making the shoes fit. I realize that probably any teacher would tell me to just practice the making for now ( study fitting properly later), but I like to tackle everything and delve in deep when i am interested in something.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#435 Post by dw »

No need to apologize. You are not asking too many questions. It's just that there may not be an easy answer esp. given the constraints of the medium.

And I am too old to mince words for the sake of appearances. I never was that guy and less so now.

Beyond that, don't stop "delving", just realize that some things...like making (which is mostly muscle memory)...will come faster and easier than other things. Take it as it comes, focus on what is before you.

:old&wise:
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#436 Post by jlboykin »

Hello, all! This is a quite urgent and frustrating issue I am having regarding fitting shoes and a difference in the final shoe. My hope is that the most experienced out of this group can chime in on this issue...

When a client tries on the trial shoe, the shoe either fits good or needs to be taken down. Keep in mind that the trail is cemented rather than welted, doesn't have side linings and only has a heel block and shank attached to it. So then, either the final shoe is made or the last is slightly taken down (this shoe now has side linings in them). When the customer tries on the final shoes sometimes the shoe will have pronounced gapping in the vamp area or next to/behind the first metatarsal, and this gapping is more than it ever was with the trail shoe.


Ok, so that is the issue, an actual shoe that fits worse that a trial, that right there is hard to say without getting angry. Our team is a bit baffled and frustrated with these result and we are looking to find solutions asap, and of coarse this has not always been a problem only recently.

I for one I think it is because sometimes we have issues pulling the last out of the shoe and the shoe is warped for a number of seconds. Either that or the person making the final shoe is not lasting flush against the vamp of the last. On the other hand a coworker believes it is because we are not using side linings on the trail shoes. But to me that is ridiculous if anything a shoe without side lining would shoe gapping more.

I am all ears for anyone with experience willing to put in there 2 cents.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#437 Post by dw »

I feel for you...but it is very hard to diagnose a problem like that without seeing almost all your steps up to the point the problem arises. Simply because it could be a combination of things or none of the above.

Frankly, my first guess is to agree with you--that it is, at least partially, your last and the pulling of it. In some circumstances pulling the last can distort or even damage the shoe. I posted a comment some weeks ago...here...on just this subject.

One would think, however, that a vamp without mid liners would be more accommodating to the foot--with the addition of mid (side) linesr on the final go-round tending to markedly 'bridge' any discrepancy or insufficiency. A lot depends on the quality and temper of the leather as well as the number of layers involved with the 'fitter's model, compared to the same factors in the final shoe.

Then too, a pattern that is not correct...maybe not sprung enough...will sometime exhibit looseness in the vamp (over or behind the joint), simply because the vamp cannot be pulled tight to the wood. I see makers using a hot iron to shrink and smooth the vamp expressly as a way to address such issues.

Compounding all this is the fact that I don't have these kinds of problems anymore. I suspect the reason for that is because I use an SAS last; I last 'seat's down'; and I block every vamp that it is possible to block before assembly...which addresses issues of 'spring'.

And, FWIW, even though I don't use mid liners on fitters models, i always use them on final make-ups.

I wish I could offer more help...but maybe it will give you something to think about and that, in turn, lead you to a solution. :lurk:
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#438 Post by nickb1 »

Could anyone advise whether and if so how some degree of fitting is possible remotely please?! Or refer me to a previous post if this has been discussed already ...

My fitting plans are shot down in flames by the lockdown situation! For context, this is a RTW sprung last supplied after I provided just an outline draft of the foot to the maker.

I was thinking of asking the 'client' (my sister) to measure her girth around the joints so I could compare it to the last and possibly the "short heel" girth. But 1) if either measurement is out, one does not know where exactly to build up the last and 2) how can one identify the short heel girth on the last?! Is this a futile idea? What do people think would be the key measurements for an ankle boot and how to compare these to the last?

An alternative would be to make the shoe with a temporary stuck on sole, bracing the uppers with thread through the insole, and post it off to see how it fits. But I imagine it's problematic to ask the client how it fits, since they don't know what you are looking for e.g. the snug fit of the vamp as opposed to bagginess. They may e.g. be used to a lifetime of badly-fitting shoes, and so so delighted with something that is not really a good fit at all.

Finally, one could just make the ankle boot and see how it fits, then stretch it if need be afterwards or build up inside the boot.

Grateful for your thoughts, and hope everyone is keeping safe at this difficult time.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#439 Post by dw »

nickb1,

Unfortunately, this may get a bit long, but FWIW, just sending an outline of the foot to a last maker is so far from even adequate as to almost be useless. Not even a realistic or accurate LOF (length of foot) can be obtained from a simple outline, much less the proper length of the last. Nor is the outline sufficient for determining the width at the joint line or in the heelseat. One can guess, but it is not anywhere near as accurate as a footprint. And obtaining, much less factoring-in, an accurate (and extremely critical) heel-to-ball measurement is nothing less than impossible.

Girths are important, even critical. But having someone else take the girth measurements leaves you, as the maker, with little more understanding of the foot than if no one had taken them.

Build-ups of scrap leather (I use insole shoulder) can be added to bring the last up to the corresponding girth measurement on the foot. Or the last can be reduced (far more problematic). But some knowledge of the foot and the last and where these girth measurements are on the last (it is not a one-to-one correspondence) is necessary. Even the short heel can be adjusted. Although the short heel, in particular, is fraught simply because if you change it, you also risk changing the high instep measurement--which is a real consideration even if some makers ignore it. (On the other hand, and to be fair, most makers who do not recognize the high instep as a valid and critical data point, will also ignore the short heel. But I don't.) And vice-versa, of course--change the high instep girth and you risk changing the SH.)

And along those same lines, girth measurements are generally related to specific structures in the foot and benefit from being taken by...at the very least...the same hand as will locate and modify them on the last.

Yes, a fitter's model (trial shoe) is a good idea...a very good idea. I've been making for 50 years +/- and not only has it saved me a lot of money but it has taught me so much about the foot that I wouldn't...couldn't...do without it. Much of which I couldn't have learned otherwise.

Lots more could be said...some of it general observations, some of it more detailed. But one fundamental observation applies--"boot and shoemaking is dead easy--it's just muscle memory; fitting is where the mastery comes in." The last comes first. Fail to get it right and everything else is beside the point. A maker must study the foot in depth; must understand lasts and how they relate to the foot...or differ. It is a lifetime endeavor.

Approaching fitting the way you are currently doing (if I am reading / hearing / understanding you correctly) is a recipe for frustration and failure.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#440 Post by nickb1 »

Hi DW,
Thanks for responding, and I agree that the last is fundamental and should not be chosen merely on the basis of a draft. Allow me to explain. This isn't my preferred approach to achieving a good fit, but a response to circumstances. Namely, my sister does not want to spend a lot of money on a bespoke last, and I can't make one, so right off I'm looking at an off the shelf one, and the draft, which I think I actually also sent with some measurements and her "usual size", was just for the manufacturer to choose one which would be a reasonably good bet. certainly better than, say, a random selection.
My plan was to make the braced temporary shoe, seen for myself how it fit and then made some mods to the last, tried another fitting and so on, until it seemed satisfactory, as much as could be for a RTW last. I'm unable to do this in the circumstances as my sister lives in Italy and I'm in the UK, and both countries are in lockdown because of COVID 19.
So i still face the question of what to do in the circumstances. Just make the shoes?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#441 Post by dw »

Well, I have spent the better part of a half century using 'off-the-shelf' lasts in standard sizes. And making mods to them. I call that a 'bespoke last.' And I really...and with some justification...believe I get a better fit than many other makers who are sending measurements and such out to last making companies or even carving their own from a shapeless block or wood..

It's all on the shoemaker and how much data he wants to be bothered to collect and how meticulous he is in using it.

Many years ago a model maker I respected suggested to me that if a shoe maker truly understands the foot, and lasts in general, and what is wanted by way of fit, he ought to be able to make almost any size last out of any other size last. Not sure I wholeheartedly agree, or more importantly, that it wouldn't be more fuss that it was worth, but the principle rings true.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#442 Post by nickb1 »

Hi DW,
That's very interesting. I'd like to know more about the fundamentals of fitting that would help with this. Could you recommend a source, or indicate where this is already discussed on the forum? In the meantime I will probably make the trial version of the shoe and send it off. I guess the impulse to just go ahead and make them is partly just me sitting around getting bored at home. At least she'll be able to know if e.g. the laces close with the shoe too loose or if there is pain somewhere common like the toe or joint. It's also good practice for me in bracing the uppers for a fit test. (And if they don't fit well it won't be entirely my fault ... !)
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#443 Post by dw »

nickb1,

Little that is really and truly useful is written about fitting anywhere (not that there isn't any but it almost has to be gleaned). That should not be too surprising: First, every maker has his own approach, (and many more than objective reality would support, claim that they have never had a misfit).

And second, and perhaps more importantly, if fitting is a lifetime study. How does one quantify and distill that lifetime into a treatise that anyone can understand and everyone can implement?

My answer...incomplete and still evolving as it is...is to collect as much data from the foot as is reasonably possible and to utilize it in an empirical and objective and repeatable way--to rely as little on smoke and mirrors, and guesses, and 'feelings' as possible.

And my way isn't necessarily for everyone. It isn't written in stone and YMMV.

Nevertheless, I'll give it a shot.

FWIW...below is a beginning. I'll try to do this in installments. More tomorrow or the next day.

PART I

First, I start with an outline of the weight-bearing foot understanding full well that the outline has its purpose--to assess and identify where mass in the foot is located--but an outline is perhaps the least useful datum one collects. That said, an outline is not entirely to be ignored and the more accurate it is, the better--a 'tracing block' can be useful here.

While I am outlining the foot, I tentatively locate the medial and lateral ball joint, and I note anomalies such as bunions and inflare/outflare, hammertoes, etc..

I also use a 'stick' to measure and record the length of foot, and the distance from the back of the heel to the medial joint. Both of these measurements are critical, and are perhaps the most empiric and reliable data collected.

Second, I take a weight bearing footprint. This is important!

While an approximate footprint can be recorded with just a pencil held at an angle under the edge of the foot, the better way is to use a 'pedograph'--a rectangular frame with an inked latex film stretched/suspended between the sides. The foot presses on the un-inked side of the latex forcing the inked side onto a sheet of paper--recording the topography of the plantar surface of the foot.

A footprint will tell you how wide the heelseat and treadline are, and fundamentally what the dimensions of the insole should be and what it should look like. The footprint and the insole should be highly congruent and the insole should seldom exceed or fall short of the footprint, especially in the joint and heelseat areas. A footprint can also tell you a lot about the temper of the foot as well as reveal any plantar discrepancies, such as a fallen metatarsal arch, etc..

At the same time I try to locate, on the footprint, the absolute location of the medial and lateral joint--the cartilage interface between the first metatarsal and the first proximal phalange (phalanx?), as well as the same at the lateral joint.

I also locate, as best as I can, the 'space' between the first metatarsal head and the second metatarsal head. This is done by imprinting the footprint with a stylus between the first and second toes as far back into the body of the foot as possible. It's not an ideal solution but, short of an x-ray, "good enough for government work". This datum ultimately yields a workable LOMA (line of muscular action).

While I am at it, I record another outline of the foot on the same paper lying underneath the latex film, using a thin stylus held a vertically as possible. The stylus presses the latex into the paper below. I also, do another LOF (length of foot) with the stick held sidewise along the medial side of the foot and using the stylus to record the ends of the stick as well as the bar along the side.

Regarding redundancy...yes, some measurements may, and probably should, be taken twice and recorded in two (or three) different places. Redundancy affords us an invaluable 'cross-check'

Understand that this cannot be taught or learned by reading. Only by doing. But understanding the basic concepts may help. I have tried (and will continue to try) to proffer those concepts with a minimum of 'process'. Some tools and some techniques are mentioned...and should be, and will continue to be...but again, understanding what is needed is more important than how to get there.

FWIW. Some additional information as well as photographs of the tools and techniques I use can be found on this Forum in this thread, Here. There's at least 10 posts there that are relevant and maybe more if you consider what came before and what others have posted.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#444 Post by dw »

PART II

So what's next? Well, of course measuring the foot.

Measuring the foot consists of wrapping a tape measure around the foot in locations that can give us relevant and critical information that we can record. These measurements are called 'girths.'

I do weight-off girths--short heel, long heel, high instep, low instep, waist, and ball or joint. Each girth is taken over a specific location that can often be identified by bones or adjacent structure.These bones are important especially when they are near the surface simply because where the skin is thin the nerves are more vulnerable and pain more easily induced.

So it's not willy-nilly or guesswork and can usually be reproduced by nearly anyone. With one caveat: Every maker pulls the tape measure with a different force and feel. What I call snug another maker might deem tight...or loose.

I take measurements snug. I never add to or subtract from the measurements I obtain if only because that adds an element of guesswork, which is, by its very nature, inaccurate and disengaged. But just as importantly, if a maker cannot trust his own measurements then something fundamental is missing in his technique, if not his understanding of the foot.

But what does snug mean? Every maker must answer that for himself. No two makers will pull the tape in the same way. Finger feel and muscle tension are unique to each of us.Then too, experience and judgement factor in, and of course, every foot is different--some are 'flesh-y,' some are dense, and some carry a certain amount of 'excess'(?) water.

I take a short heel, a long heel, a high instep, a low instep,waist, and the ball (or 'joint') girth. Sometimes I will take yet another measurement from the medial ball joint across the foot at its widest, which is is not necessarily from medial joint to lateral joint.

I may take more measurements than other makers. Part of that is that while I make shoes, I also make pull-on boots which do not have laces for adjustment. So the fit has to be spot on. But the better part is that I believe that the more data I can collect from the foot, the better fit I will obtain. Does a maker's understanding of fit or his ability to achieve a good fit ever improve with less data?

Below is a diagram and explanation of where and why, and to some extent how, I take measurements. Click on it to enlarge the illustration.

The long heel (shown but not explained on the diagram) is taken from the middle cuneiform to one 'section' (see Sabbage's Sectionizer here)...or approximately one inch (depending on the size of the foot), up the back of the heel from ground.

And while I'm talking about measurements and Sabbage's Sectionizer, when it comes to a proper fit, the Heel to Ball measurement is, almost certainly, the most critical. Of course, it all needs to work together but not even the Length Of the Foot is as important as the H-B. Simply because, as Sabbage makes clear, some people have short toes and some have long toes, and, all other things being equal, LOF can be the same in both situations. But if the medial ball joint is too far forward or too far back relative to where the last says it should be, the arch...and the foot as a whole...will not be properly supported and foot problems are only a matter of time. Sabbage's Sectionizer is well worth the read just for that insight alone--that if the H-B on the last is not near-as-nevermind identical to the H-B on the foot, the foot is not fit.


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Re: Fitting the Foot

#445 Post by nickb1 »

Hi DW,
Am I right in thinking that the heel to ball measurement should be taken from the rear extremity of the heel bone (6) to the outer extremity of the ball?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#446 Post by dw »

Well, yes. But the heel to ball is measured from the stationary upright of my big 'stick'-board (post #414) to the center of the medial ball joint. The point to be made here is that the foot is placed in the stick-board such that the heel is firmly (not tight) bumping up against the stationary upright and that a slider will measure the longest aspect of the foot...and / or the medial side of the foot is perpendicular to the stationary upright. Then the center of the medial ball is located as described above. The distance from that point to the face of the stationary upright is the H-B measurement...and it is, taken this way, one of those empiric absolutely unimpeachable, measurements that one ignores or fiddles with at their own peril.

The important point here is that the H-B measurement is not taken from the center back of the heel at a diagonal to the medial surface of the ball joint, it is measured perpendicular to the baseline, as determined by the rear upright on my stickboard, along the side of the foot to the medial ball joint. (third photo post #414 this thread and only photo post # 415)

LOF is another of those critical, empirical data and it is taken by sliding the moving upright again the toes and measuring the distance from the face of the sliding upright to the face of the stationary upright. Again,bearing in mind that the foot should already be positioned to present the longest aspect. Here again LOF is not taken from the center of the heel along the center line of the foot which, depending on the distribution of mass, may or may not render the longest measurement.

PS. if you don't have a stick-board an ordinary stick (a Ritz stick) will do, but, in my experience, the results will not be as accurate.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#447 Post by nickb1 »

Hi DW,
So having got the measurements, how do you then proceed with matching things up with the last, prior to producing something for a fitting? I'm guessing that you have to assess things with the last elevated to the intended heel height, for starters.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#448 Post by dw »

Nick,
I have pt. 3 started. Maybe half way written...depending on how loquacious I'm feeling. :crackup: What's the old saying? "I would have been briefer but I was pressed for time..." I am taking my time a little here, but with the next stage, things get a little more tricky and 'interpretive.'

Give me a day or two.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#449 Post by dw »

Fitting pt. III

This is a long post...I think the information (or POV, if you will) is important, maybe even critical, before addressing how to modify the last.

Once most or all of the data that is needed is collected, it is time to turn our attention to using it to model the last.

The problem is that not all lasts are created equal and many are not even pretending to be structurally correct in terms of the ultimate health of the foot. Many are created with style (aesthetics) in mind and the devil take the hindmost when it comes to fit or foot health.

Of course, if a maker carves his own lasts from a shapeless block of wood, some...much...of this is moot. Or not, depending on both all that has gone before and the mindfulness, rigour and precision of the person carving the last. Getting bottom radiuses the same on both the left and right is not a gimme. Much less twist, bottom planes, pitch, toe spring, etc., etc.. It can be done by hand and done very well. But companies which use lathes and create lasts that are, left to right, mirror images of each other, like Springline and Jones and Vining, exist for reasons beyond the simple economic justification. In a very real sense, the very invention of the lastmaking lathe occurred because of necessity as much as efficiency.

I use standard sized lasts rather than carving a pair for each customer simply because I want to start with as close to unequivocal certainty as possible before I even think about altering or interpreting the data I've collected from the foot. I want to know that the degree in the heel is the same for both of the pair. I want the heel to ball measurement to be the same. And if the data that I collect suggest that one foot is different (longer or shorter) I am far more likely to get close to a fit if I start with known baseline parameters before making modifications....in my opinion. The same consideration holds true throughout the process--twist, pitch, bottom radii, alignment of bottom planes, height of arch, height of forepart, heel curves, toe spring, and so forth. Almost endlessly.

If nothing else, it suits my sense of order and organization and my penchant for the empirical.

Ultimately the goal is to make the last conform to the foot using the data we have collected from the foot. The foot should not be made to conform to the last. Within reason and all other things being equal, for example, if the insole ends up being wider (or narrower) than the footprint, the foot is not fit. Period.

Fitting up a last often involves some build-ups or some reduction, even if the last is hand carved. Build-ups on a hand carved last are obvious (moreso than reductions). That said, almost every pair of hand carved lasts I've ever seen had build-ups...if only for fine tuning. But to my mind that only underscores the flexibility of mind that is needed to fit a foot nevermind the problems and uncertainties of carving two ostensibly identical lasts from scratch.

Endorsing a particular model of standard sized last (aside from my own) would neither be wise nor useful. But if a maker chooses to begin with a finished (turned) last, choosing the model should be considered carefully. And, in that regard, some salient features...some unique to the style of footwear being made...are critical, at least in my opinion:

'Toe spring' is a good example. It is all the rage these days to make low quarter, relatively low heeled shoes with little or no toe spring. The idea being that the shoe looks sleeker and more streamlined, I suppose. But in terms of mechanics, the theory, as I understand it, is that the lower the heel height, the more toe spring is wanted (up to a point). Why? Well, firstly more toe spring means that foot can much more easily bend the outsole simply because the outsole is already half way there. Which in turn means that there is less fatigue and an easier break in, nevermind comfort long term. And perhaps just as importantly, there is less creasing over the forepart of the foot (a significant aesthetic consideration)...simply because the leather in the forepart of the shoe is already in a configuration close to what it will be at 'toe off.'

'Pitch:' With footwear that is a bit higher in the heel, the 'degree' in the heel needs to be as close to zero as possible.What that means is that the backpart of the foot is sitting as close to its natural inclination as possible. When there is no heel on the shoe, or the foot is bare, the heel of the foot is necessarily parallel or congruent with the ground. In that configuration the weight of the body is transmitted down the leg and then redistributed to the os calsis and through the arch and onto / through the metatarsals and phalanges. Some lasts, esp. women's lasts (and some boot lasts, as well) are made such that from the featherline at the back of the heel to the treadline there is an unbroken incline. This forces weight directly into the forefoot, by-passing the os calcis and the long arch and job they were intended to do. As a result of the weight of the body falling almost entirely on the forefoot, the chances of a fallen metatarsal arch is increased correspondingly, along with hammer toes and bunions, if not further foot problems. When a last exhibits that incline, it is said to have large degree in the heel. Up to a heel height of around inch and a half, the degree in the heel can, and should be, minimal--a couple of degrees at best / worst...depending on how you look at it.

Visually this means that when the last is set at heel height, the whole heel seat area--perhaps as much as four of Sabbage's 'sections' should be near-as-nevermind parallel to the ground.

'Twist:' Twist is where the forepart plane and the backpart plane are deliberately out of alignment. Most often the backpart will seem to be canted towards the lateral side, effectively forcing the maker to build the heel higher on the medial side. Thus...theoretically...supporting the arch and 'correcting' any tendency of the foot to pronate--which is just assumed, by those who subscribe to this idea, as the default or at least inevitable. At one time, this was...and in some quarters, still is...considered a benefit, although it makes for a difficult build and an ugly shoe in my experience...and opinion. I am not fond of any 'twist' in a last. I have fooled with the concept and even made footwear for my wife and self and found the wearing, while not immediately unpleasant, long term potentially injurious, esp. in the knees. This despite the fact that I naturally pronate--I am flat footed but not pathologically so, IOW.

For shoes, I want a narrow (thin) comb--the 'comb' being the upper area of the backpart. As mentioned in another thread, having a tight topline is critical to the way I make shoes. A narrow comb facilitates that. I also like a round profiled heel. Perhaps for the same reason. The almost flat profile of some British lasts doesn't make sense to me. Fine for boots but not shoes, IMO.

Because of the way I make shoes, I like an SAS hinged last. As far as I am concerned...and as far as I know...this is the only style of shoe last that does not put an inordinate stress on the topline and backseam when the last is pulled. I have spoken to the way I last a shoe (and boots) and how it differs from some contemporary methods in another thread...here:

viewtopic.php?p=42674#p42674


The only other thing I would mention as critical...again, IMO...for choosing a model is that it have an inside cone. The 'cone' of the last is pretty much identical to the instep of the foot. The cone of the last, however, seldom looks like the instep of the foot and just as often it is shaped or designed more for the benefit of the shoe...aesthetically or functionally... than to strictly emulate the foot.

For instance, a boot last may have a cone that is 'squeezed' upward and forward to open up the throat of the boot when the vamp and upper are drafted onto the last. Seldom will the cone of the last...regardless of whether it be a boot or a shoe last...be at the same elevation' relative to the plantar surface as the instep is to the plantar surface of the foot. Despite all the girths and other measurement being congruent with the foot (ideally).

In the midst of all that is the fact that while the major bone structure of the instep of the foot actually begins pretty much dead center to the ankle at the top of the instep, it doesn't stay centered--it runs at an angle towards the medial ball joint. All too often, esp. with standard sized lasts, the model was designed to facilitate lasting with a lasting machine. That means that the last must be as symmetrical as possible; which in turn means that the cone itself is positioned dead center to the mass of the last and in line with the toe of the last. But fundamentally. this means that the structure (and health) of the foot is ignored or discounted. Most bespoke lasts and some standard lasts which acknowledge this issue, have a cone that slants from the top to the medial side--the inside. Such lasts are said to be 'inside cone' lasts.

One could probably go on and on in this vein but we start to get into preferences and druthers that I have no opinion on. Some, like eliminating the featherline around the heel seat, I have tried and "can take it or leave it."
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#450 Post by das »

And besides "toe spring", "pitch" and "twist", don't forget "swing" (inflare, neutral, and outflare shapes, amply explored/discussed here in older threads, just search the word).
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