Fitting the Foot

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#426 Post by anakim » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:52 am

Oh! I see you have already done it!
I can't keep up. No complaints though. Its one of my favourite things to do, reading the forum. Here goes.. .

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#427 Post by dw » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:38 pm

lancepryor » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:37 am wrote:DW:
thanks for posting those images. Very interesting.

So, related question: have folks ever modified the rear of the last to have a heel curve of greater than 5mm, to attempt to have the heel seat actually sit exactly the same place as the print?

Lance
I don't believe in the 5mm bit. Each foot, depending on its "temper," will print differently. 5mm is just another "guess."

DAS showed me a last that had no featherline. If I understood correctly, he said featherlines were a function of manufacturing processes.

I have made one or two pairs with no featherline around the heel...generally when I was trying to make a contoured, "up-in-the-waist" insole.

Cutting he featherline away opens up all kinds of possibilities such as you suggest.

That said, it's not easy to determine where to trim the insole when there is no featherline. I guess I'm a coward or just a stickler for empirical things but I prefer a featherline on my lasts.

How would we ever create a bottom paper??? :crackup:
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#428 Post by anakim » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:20 pm

That last post showing the relatively narrow forepart of the last compared to the guys foot is really helpful.
I have already modified a few pairs of lasts and after looking through Sabbage to find out about heel to ball I read some stuff about fitting the other aspects , and am starting to think about this, so that picture is really timely for me. My test subject, a good friend with very narrow feet with a long big toe that spread almost inward medially, plus some area on the lateral (?) Outside between little toe metatarsal and heel. I had originally added a lot of room for the big toe, on a narrow toed last. I must go read that chapter again but it looks like you are doing the same as Sabbage says, (the opposite of what I did), which stands to reason!

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#429 Post by dw » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:59 am

One of the most useful bits that came out of this discussion..IMO...is the independently arrived at conclusion by Lance and myself (here), that there is no significant difference in the "stick" of the last and the bottom paper. So either way works.

Now, I may have misunderstood Lance or it may be dependent on the model of last or some other factor but for me, at least, it is far easier to slap a bottom paper in-between the end points of the foot frame than to try to jockey around a clumsy and potentially misinterpreted 3D chunk of wood or plastic.

As for making room for the "big toe" yes, you should...but it is easy to overdo. If the toe doesn't fill the medial space you create with build-ups, the shoe will tend, over time to crease alongside the toe. And there is no uglier effect.

It's all (everything we've been discussing) reason aplenty for "fitter's models."
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#430 Post by dw » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:23 am

This whole discussion dredges up memories and trains of thought that I haven't visited for years and years...over forty, in some instances.

I don't really know and can't say for certain why I started using bottom papers for this process but I have a vague (apocryphal?) memory of having had a very highly respected model maker tell me that I could do it that way. No difference, no harm no foul.

I used to get all my lasts from an independent lastmaker...I can't even remember his whole name (Paul Mulcahey, or something like that) but I always called him "Mac." He was a great mentor to me and gave me a lot of insights into lasts and fitting feet. And when I asked him questions, he couldn't answer, he referred me to the modelmaker I mentioned above.

I don't remember the modelmaker's name at all but, IIRC, the last time I talked to him he had just had a heart-attack while driving and had crashed his sports car.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#431 Post by anakim » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:55 am

DW, in your photo of the imprint with insole/bottom paper superimposed, on Nov. 3, there is a small bit of the footprint sticking out beyond the bottom paper on the medial side just below the joint. I am finding this problem in 3 feet/lasts i am working with. In this case, I assume you would add a bit to the last in that spot?
Also, would you ever rotate the last further medially to cover that spot and then shave off a bit right at the joint? The reason I am asking this is that there is not much if any of the footprint hanging over on the lateral side of the foot, as well as a big toe sticking out pretty far on the medial side, of course!
In addition, when looking at Golding, volume 4 fitting up lasts, it would indicate the center of the toe of the last should be shifted far towards the medial side of foot (from that exercise where you measure the heel seat and then find the point in toe area with same width, draw parallel lines and center toe of the last in the middle of that, to find the appropriate last shape). In contradiction, however, volume 2 about last making says to draw a line from heel straight through the second toe, which in my case of the severely medially deviating big toe, gives a dramatically different result. Obviously i cant simply follow rules here without putting some critical thinking into action, but there may be certain thing i should or shouldnt do that im unaware of.

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#432 Post by anakim » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:05 am

Perhaps what i should have clarified first is whether the bottom paper or last feather edge should coincide with the footprint both slightly below and at the ball joint. It seems the joints i am dealing with are all a little indented with respect to the padding heelward, as compared to the last profiles. Is this normal, do i ignore it or make the last curvier to follow the print more precisely?

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#433 Post by dw » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:37 am

First, an observation: people (mostly beginners and wanna-bes) talk about "learning" to make shoes from videos and forums and so forth. Some things can be learned, of course, but the really important parts are much more difficult. This is a good example.

I cannot...no one can...offer a course on how to fit up feet on the best of forums. Feet are too complicated. I cannot even know for certain what you are having trouble with. Or how to help you. With regard to your questions, most of what I am doing is guessing and trying to clearly express what I do. Because I am not seeing what you're seeing, because I don't have the feet in front of me, guessing is all I can do. And guessing wrong is often the likely outcome.

Beyond that, the bottom paper in the photo you mentioned could be shifted slightly medially...until the edge of it touches the red line. If there is still some print showing behind the bottom paper, yes, you could place a build-up to cover it. Or you could decide the bottom paper/last was a little too long. Or you could ignore it.

These are judgement calls. It might even be that, with some other adjustments, all three of those solutions would work. A "fitter's model" can "proof" your judgment call.

The red lines on the data sheet are there partially to contain the bottom paper. To indicate boundaries, limits, parameters. If you set the red lines up correctly, the bottom paper/last should not overlap them much, if any, esp. on the medial side. You can play with the lateral side of the foot (a little) or fudge a bit at the heel but fit and structural integrity are entirely linked to the medial side of the foot.

In order to fit a foot you have to understand the foot. The medial ball joint isn't going to move and since it is a focal point of the skeletal structure it has to be respected. Toes can move. They will move...of their own accord. Fleshy areas can be "fudged"...sometimes should be fudged. But, IMO, everything depends on the relationship of the calcaneus, the medial arch formed by the Tarsus Seven and the medial ball joint. Ignore that structure at your own risk.

When the foot flares medially, yes, the forepart of the last must be adjusted to accommodate and reflect that deviation but the bottom paper and the last still sits on the red line, still depends on the medial ball joint. (The only time this will not be true is when the foot is so damaged that an accretion of calcium has formed a bunion at the medial joint.)

The Line Of Muscular Action runs between the first metatarsal head and the second. It must...you made it that way. Most of the time the toe of the last will, more or less, center on the LOMA, but that is again dependent on the particular foot as well as the last itself.

Fitting is a lifetime study. Understanding the foot is more than a lifetime of study. And that means trial, and failure, and observation, and thought and deliberation, and a flexibility of mind. Not every apparent solution will work in every situation--the foot is too complicated. And every person (and every foot) is an individual and different. The rules are there to guide you. But if you're trying to "follow rules" from this person and that person and an unknown third party...all at once...you'll fail every time.

You can't just...willy-nilly...pick up any last regardless of shape or attention to the constraints of good foot mechanics and health and expect it to work. It's all interdependent. You can't arbitrarily pick and choose bit and pieces from Golding and Frommer and expect good results. Especially not when you are still learning. (I did not post all the above as a tutorial. I posted it as insight to one approach--mine.)

And FWIW, Golding is not a coherent voice or approach--that's its strength and its weakness. It is a compendium of many different voices. For the experienced shoemaker it is invaluable, for the novice it can undoubtedly be confusing. The same is true here on the Crispin Colloquy.

My best advice is to pick one person and one person's vision and follow it until you understand it thoroughly. Don't mix and match. It is a recipe for frustration.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#434 Post by anakim » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:56 am

Thanks for your answer. I apologize for probably asking too many questions. I do not want to be seen as being disrespectful of the tradition of learning in person, nor of the lifetime of dedication and hard work you and many others have put in. I am not one of those people who believe i can just learn everything online, though i suppose i have been acting like that. I did take an introduction course with Nasser, and essentially need to practice the making part of what he taught me. Before I put a lot of work into making my uppers and the (for me difficult) process of inseaming and so on, I wanted to give my best shot at making the shoes fit. I realize that probably any teacher would tell me to just practice the making for now ( study fitting properly later), but I like to tackle everything and delve in deep when i am interested in something.

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#435 Post by dw » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:21 am

No need to apologize. You are not asking too many questions. It's just that there may not be an easy answer esp. given the constraints of the medium.

And I am too old to mince words for the sake of appearances. I never was that guy and less so now.

Beyond that, don't stop "delving", just realize that some things...like making (which is mostly muscle memory)...will come faster and easier than other things. Take it as it comes, focus on what is before you.

:old&wise:
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