Fitting the Foot

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producthaus
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#226 Post by producthaus »

Thanks for the tips. Here is another attempt. I rotated the last to better match the swing line, perhaps too far in the drawing this time.

What is the shiny substance I see coating everyone's build-ups?

Red line is the original last, blue is the build-up.
12538.jpg
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andre

Re: Fitting the Foot

#227 Post by andre »

Nick,
if the tracing is yours and you want to make the "perfect" fit for this last, I suggest, that you through your tracing away and start again. Make a pedograph and trace around. You need to put markings for the joints in your tracing, otherwise it's a guessing. In your tracing I do not believe what I see, I think your inner side lines are not correct, so that's why it looks confusing.What I see on your lasts is already much material, but according to your tracing not enough. Second the heel is looking to much backwards to your outer line, but again I can not see properly, because the marking for the joints are missing etc. I think it's dangerous to mix up systems. You did an inside marking, so I assume you're looking for Koleff, nothing wrong with that, but than go ahead as per Koleff. If you use your foot and your heel dimensions form your last, you will get a fine result for sure. Good luck.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#228 Post by dw »

Nick,

I second the advice to use a pedograph.

At this point it's getting dicey to give you advice...without a pedograph, without measurements, without seeing the foot it's just speculation.

That said, I don't see a foot print and what I do see looks wider than a foot print would be.

Wild guessing--I think the last may be a bit too long for your foot and the build up a bit too much.

You're on the right track, however.

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#229 Post by trefor_owen »

Dianne,
If you wish to contact me off list I can try to talk you through the relationship of the height of the heel of the upper to the position of the top of the arch of the upper - its a bit like a "pivot" in practice..
Most of the uppers I make for my clogs are 1 piece (I think shoemakers call this a whole cut???), only seamed on the heel (handstitched) and there is a knack to springing the pattern for "interesting" high archs.. but also I can send you photos of the various traditional clogs which (I think) seem to be the same in styling as your idea...
cheers Trefor Owen Cymru
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#230 Post by 1947redhed »

Trefor, we don't often receive instruction from an official clog maker. Is this a topic you could photograph and post for all of us to learn about?

Regards,
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#231 Post by producthaus »

Here is a pedograph with measurements and tracing of the original last treadline (pen held at 60 degrees), no build-ups.

It appears the treadline of the original last does match up fairly well to my foot, is this correct?

However, the foot outline (pencil at 90degrees) is wider?

Joint
Foot : 27.5cm
Last : 25cm

Instep
Foot : 26.5cm
Last : 25.5cm

Short heel
Foot : 36.5
Last : not really sure how to properly measure

Long heel
Foot : 41
Last : not really sure how to properly measure
12555.jpg
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andre

Re: Fitting the Foot

#232 Post by andre »

Nick,
first you should line up medial, than you need to match exactly the tread line of last and feet and that would most properly show your last needs to be shifted forward, my guess would be some 5mm and than you would be short in the heel, so one size up should do better for you is my guess. Even you need to consider your heel hight as well, might be another 2-3 mm. But again I have doubt here. I do not understand how are you making your insole pattern? 60 from what? Take a paper tape, masking the insole of the last, define the feather edge and cut out, it's 5 min job, but than it's accurate. Certainly this looks much better now, if you give a proper insole pattern now also, you're done, than line up medial and post the pic and I'm quite sure it will look quite ok.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#233 Post by dw »

Nick,

Here's my take...and I offer it as much to solicit other opinions and perspectives for comparison as any other reason...

First, I think I would start with a last about one width narrower. This would give you better fit in the heel. I like to see the heel seat width of the last be very close to the heel seat width on the pedograph. Perhaps a little bit wider but pretty close.

Second I would shift the forepart laterally until the medial featherline of the last aligned with the medial edge of the footprint. I do not subscribe to the idea that you can just place the last (or the bottom paper) over the pedograph, willy-nilly, without rhyme or reason. Just because we think it looks good in a particular location is no guarantee that the foot will agree.

And yes, as Andre suggests, a real or created bottom paper/insole pattern would be helpful here.

Third, you have left out a critical piece of information...what is the heel to ball length? How does it compare to the heel to ball on the last?

While the last appears to be roughly in the right position, heel to toe, in the absence of a heel to ball measurement and an accurate bottom paper it is hard to know. I would suspect that the heel of the last might be better positioned slightly more towards the rear of the foot but then the overall length of the last would be short. An accurate bottom paper and a heel to ball length would go a long way in refining the position and the suitability of the last size for your foot.

Finally, I could tell you how to find the short heel and the long heel on the last...if it were my lasts. But then you would have to learn how to measure feet my way, fit up a last my way and use last models that were similar or identical to the last models I use.

For example, the long heel (the way I do it) is measured from a very specific point on the foot to another very specific point/bone structure on the foot. You are apparently not using or recognizing that bone structure in your method of measuring (no criticism). Then I have to locate those points on the last--accurately, consistently, from well regulated data. Then and only then can I find the long heel of the last. The same can be said of the short heel although it is a bit more complicated and theory-dependent.

That said, most shoemakers don't pay any attention to short heel or long heel (despite every indication that the long heel at least, is an element that affects fit) and they do fine.

So...there's my Image. I suspect it will not be universally embraced but perhaps it will help.

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chuck_deats

Re: Fitting the Foot

#234 Post by chuck_deats »

Good discussion. One question and it has probably been answered. Should the Pedograph be taken standing, equally balanced or sitting?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#235 Post by dw »

Chuck,

It's a good question...if only because like all good questions it leads us to explore deeper than what's obvious.

I suspect that to some extent it doesn't really matter how the pedograph is taken. Just like it doesn't really matter where and how girth measurements are taken. More important than the how's and why's is what you do with the data collected from the foot.

I take the pedograph standing, weight evenly balanced between the feet. Why? Because I think the insole needs to correspond to the footprint when the full weight of the body is in the feet. Otherwise the insole cannot function as a platform for the foot when it really needs a stable base.

That said, it is possible to imagine a maker taking the pedograph while the customer is seated--with only partial weight on the plantar surface of the foot. And then making allowances for the fact that only partial weight is involved.

It's similar to those folks who take girth measurements weight on and then subtract an arbitrary amount from the results to arrive at a fit. A modification of the data is required (and don't ask me why taking girth measurements weight on almost invariably results in too big a measurement...it just does, Image at least in my hands).

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andre

Re: Fitting the Foot

#236 Post by andre »

Nick,
DW is right, the short heel and other measurements are differ form last makers to b/s makers. I believe that each lastmaker is doing it different somehow. So we are talking about the same, but we do not mean the same. The s/h is not important for shoes, but I like to now where it is and the only way to find out is talk to your lastmaker. Anyhow, if you tell your lastmaker about geometric design and their points like s/h etc. your lastmaker will understand nothing about what are you talking, this at least my experience.
Chuck,
Weight on/off I guess is always the 10K question for the right fit. Also the upper leather for which you're planing to make the b/s need to be considered. Is there a good amount of stretch or not. I have learned from DW that he is using some 2.5 mm substance leather (correct DW?) and still he is taking weight off! I would have never the guts to do that Image! By the way, I put in here something, I believe even the way how much you pull over the upper will make a difference for the fit. Certainly there is a difference, if you do machine lasting or do handlasting, so it needs to be obvious to me, that even from operator to operator there is a difference. How much I'm not sure and if it's significant? I can't say either, but if the b/s doesn't fit and we believe other parameters been correct, we also need to look in these aspects. I'm quite sure if I would give DW my leather to use, he will start sweating..and opposite I would run away...
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#237 Post by dw »

Andre,

I think most of what you said is spot on. I would remark that most of the leather I use for boots...and to some extent a lot of the leather I use for shoes...doesn't stretch all that much. I use leathers from Horween that are retans in about 4 ounce and they are solid. Alligator is not a very stretchy leather in the areas that are considered prime. I don't like soft, stretchy leathers.

It's all in the way you're taught. I was taught to measure weight-off regardless of the leather. I recognize that common wisdom (and the old guys) says that a firm, heavier leather will fit differently that a thin soft leather. But I've never found it to be a problem. Yes, they feel different on the foot but I suspect that would be the case no matter how the last is fitted up.

I don't know that what I'm doing is right or even if it makes theoretical or logical sense, but like a lot of this...it's hard to argue with results. It's worked for me for "lo these many years." Image

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(Message edited by dw on December 14, 2010)
andre

Re: Fitting the Foot

#238 Post by andre »

DW,
it's the opposite way, if leather is basically very soft and stretchy and you pull it over very tight, you may over stretch it, may be by mistake over do it (easily happens by machine lasting), you will see what happens. It's loosing it's entire flex and stretch and behaves like synthetic and this makes a different in fit, at least you feel so. Where else with thick box calf, it might feel a little rough by fitting the new shoe, but after a few hours it will give a nice feel, because there is still much more flex in the leather than you suspect. Of course, if you last as per requirement the soft leather is keeping it's structure. You will see with my leathers, if you do crimping, with size 7 you will get easily a 9 size, again if you not consider the pressure/stretch and this will affect your fittings. Of course, in the finished shoe as per the maths, it should be the same like your's, it's not shrinking (it can't do this anymore also), but it feels on the shoe like at least a half size down. I believe I can get a good fit on a feet I know, like mine, but if I have a new leather I doubt 10 times, may be I'm crazy, but I feel if I consider the leather it will help my fit Image.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#239 Post by piper »

I have a question about fitting the heel. I've got patterns from Sharon Raymond. The patterns I have tried that have a curved heel end up with my foot falling off the back of the sole. Am I doing something wrong? I have ended up changing any heel patterns so they are straight with a strong angle inward toward my ankle to get a good fit, but it makes me sad that I can't get a simple design like a curved heel to work. Any tips that a beginner can understand?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#240 Post by dw »

I am always amazed at, and always admire, people who set out to learn make shoes or boots with little or no instruction.

Shoes seem like such common and simple things but really they are not.

If you start with a basic understanding of the foot--ie. that the foot is one of the most architecturally complex structures in nature--and then throw in gait and weight shift and walking environments, it's amazing even the best get it right more than 50% of the time.

But they do...maybe more like 99% of the time.

The fact is that there are no simple answers (and perhaps that's what keeps restless personalities engaged). In this case, for example, I don't think anyone can tell you why you are having this problem without actually seeing your foot and the patterns, etc.. Why? because there's all sorts of possible reasons, most of which have little relationship one to the other.

For instance, shoes generally have a heel stiffener. If you have a decent, solid heel stiffener in your shoes, your foot will not be physically able to fall off the back of the sole. Your toes may be crammed but the stiffener will prevent backward movement of the foot.

Or the insole/footbed could be too short for your foot. And not just for the overall length of the foot but, more importantly, the insole must conform to the heel to ball measurement such that the foot will comfortably "settle" where it should.

The last may be shaped wrong; the patterns may not correspond to the shape of the last...etc., etc..

The only tip that I can offer is one that is almost universal...go back to square one and check everything. Then proceed step by step until the problem reveals itself.

And read, study, ask questions, experiment and be prepared to pursue this...in depth...for years.

That said...and no offense intended...an instructor or at the very least a book (such as Tim Skyrme's) that covers the subject from a basic but professional perspective can peel off a lot of those years. That option might not be for, or available to, everyone but anyone can benefit from it.

I regret I don't have a better answer for you. I know it seems bewildering (and the deeper you get into it, the more bewildering it becomes...at least for a while) But, you can perhaps take some comfort in the fact that we've all been there to one degree or another.

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(Message edited by dw on January 01, 2011)
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#241 Post by gshoes »

Diane,

I have a comment to your question. I would like to just elaborate on what DW is saying because I am closer to where you are but I have seen a tiny bit more of basic instruction.

I also have both of the instruction books mentioned and they are on my list of things that I would take if the house was on fire.

I did not even know what a last was when I began and I know that you are currently not using a last.

A last is a great place to start. I would get one. Then you can make your last match to your Duck feet. Image.

And then you can make the patterns to fit the curve of the last.

The term "heel stiffener" that DW refers to may confuse you further as it did me. That would be made from cardboard in many store bought shoes but it is vegetable tanned leather in quality shoes that is sandwiched in between the outside of the shoe and the lining. Without that, your foot is simply in a purse and unless you are holding the purse handles tightly as you walk...you will walk off of the shoes.

Vegetable tanned leather is a remarkable leather to work with and is totally different than the chromed tanned leather that you are scavenging from purses to make your vamps. It can be wetted quickly and molded to take on different shapes in shoes for support, such as toe caps and heel stiffeners.

Get some and try it.

Geri
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#242 Post by piper »

Well, it's not like they teach shoemaking down at the community college, so I can see no other way to learn.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#243 Post by sharon_raymond »

greetings, I agree with others responding to your questions, Diane, that patterns are generic but feet are not. So, a great deal of mock-up-making and experimentation usually have to occur before creating a customized pattern. At the same time, my experience is that there are many techniques for making shoes - such as the stitch-down technique - that don't require the depth of skills and knowledge that many shoemakers writing on the Colloquy have.
My suggestion is that you stick for a while with making shoes that have a channel around the heel with a thong or elastic through it that gathers the topline; that should help them stay on your feet. A support piece of vegetable-tanned leather under that channel might add to stability in the heel.
I agree that a customized last is essential for making quality shoes, and I am attempting to offer a selection of them on my website. Of course these may need to be customized as well, another undertaking with lots of challenges.
I imagine the one quality that all of us who make shoes have in common is - tenacity. best wishes, Sharon
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#244 Post by piper »

Thank you Sharon. I hesitate to learn how to use a last because from what I can tell, professional shoemakers do not make flat shoes so there will be no flat lasts. They also don't make shoes for people with wide, spread out, "mountain man" feet. That's the whole reason I am making shoes. So I have flat shoes to fit my absurd feet.

I have had the most success using your heel pattern for the "Tuscan sandal", modifying it a little here and there.

The only thing I wish I could do now is be able to take the soles apart to make new shoes using the same soles. I have too many shoes now. I want to keep making shoes, but there are too many shoes everywhere now.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#245 Post by romango »

Diane,

There are plenty of flat lasts. Any shoe ever made has a last to go with it!

I personally have a couple hundred flat lasts, intended for moccasins, that I recently acquired.

- Rick
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#246 Post by elfn »

Hello all. I have a fitting problem and am resorting to making my own footwear to get around the problem. If I were to buy a ready-made shoe I would wear a 3 1/2 EEEEEE on one foot and a 4 EEEEE on the other. My husband calls anything I manage to find that gets close to fitting as "boxes with laces". He's not far off. To give you a visual, I've inserted one of my home made lasts inside the upper of a pair of Doc Martins I got at our local Goodwill.
12897.jpg


As you can see, the unaltered shoe and the upper with my last in no way resemble each other in shape.

I have had 5 pair of custom footwear made. I have had two pair of shoes made by a fella in CA. He specializes in orthotic footwear. They were ugly, clunky and massively expensive. I've had two pair of clogs made by a fella in OR, one pair I still wear when I have to get mildly dressy, but it's a less than perfect fit. I had a pair of boots made by a company in WI that do not fit at all. They are way too tight side to side and don't support the bottom of my foot (WAY too narrow).

At some point I have to accept everyday footwear is something I should attempt for myself. I have a pair of 18th century turned shoes I can wear but they bump the end of my toes which I hate. Oh, and they're really funky which isn't a plus. I think they'd be great if I lived in the city but I don't. I made a pair of house shoes that are really comfortable but pretty worthless outside the house. I'm a country girl. I want to be able to get out and chase the horses around again if I can which means I need lace-ups that really fit and support my feet.

I've been studying like mad. I've been all the way through Marcel's site (beautiful work) among others, and have been following Tom's work for a couple years. I've seen all the shoe making videos I could find and have worked my way through the gallery here and as many posts as I've been able to manage since I found the forum.

I think that covers the intro. I really appreciate the existence of the forum. I feel a little more confident as I get started.

I know I will need to trim the top of the last but I don't want to do that until I've built a fitter pair of shoes. I have a trashed ankle (exited a carriage at full tilt and one ankle took the brunt) so there's a limit to how narrow I can make the ankle part of the last.

Any comments or feedback is certainly appreciated.

Nori

I've got three different types of 2oz shoe leather coming. I've got lots of bits and pieces of other stuff, some soling and other bits that will work for puff and counters.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#247 Post by 1947redhed »

If you want some hands on instructions, consider contacting Alan Zerobnick at Shoeschool.com in Port Townsend Washington which is in your neck of the woods. Many of us learned to make shoes there. There is tuition, but it may save you a lot of time and ultimately money to learn some proven methods, materials and shortcuts. Why do you feel you need to trim the top of a last? If its to accomodate a larger ankle, you may actually need to build up a last.
Good luck with your learning curve.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#248 Post by elfn »

Thanks Georgene. I've talked with him and looked at the course the school offers. I tried to get lasts from him but he's not doing the digitoe thing right now.

I don't want to take on shoemaking for a living. The Shoe School course covers a lot of stuff that isn't pertinent to what I need. I don't need the ins and outs of running a shoemaking business. I just need comfortable shoes that will let me run around outside and do gardening, dog and horsey stuff.

While my shoemaking experience is very limited, I'm pretty skilled in other areas. I did haute couture sewing and pattern making for a while. My dad was a boat builder and I grew up doing lots of wood worky things (Bill - youngest brother - and I laid the foredeck on the Richard H) and I'm pretty handy with both hand and electric tools. I occasionally win awards for my quilts <grin>. I can both knit and crochet though I don't care for either. I've done stained glass window making and pottery. I can trim and shoe a horse. As you can see, I'm not newly out of the box and some of the skills inherent in those tasks are of value here.

I have no problem with the physics involved. I don't even have a problem with the engineering required. It's the little details that only time and a wink and a nod from someone who has already done what I am starting offers.

I thought about flying to the short course on shoe making held back east. From what I've been able to determine, the course is about a week long and focuses on making a pair of shoes that fit the class attendee. I've already got most of the tools. I'm only short a shoe rasp and a collection of needles.

Sorry. I got wordy. <wince> It happens.

N
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#249 Post by dearbone »

Nori,

Here is an option,if you want to make shoes for "around outside and do gardening and walk the dog",how about making some stitch down like the sample in the picture, it consist of two parts,front(vamp) and a piece for the back of the shoe,you trace your foot and cut an insole from it but allow some extra stitching allowance about 5mm, use your foot to mark the measures of your joints,instep on the vamp by spreading it over your foot,and use these marking to stitch around the shoe,if you have a last you can use that to guide your stitches. I hope this helps.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#250 Post by elfn »

Thanks for the thought! <grin> Like what you've suggested, here's what I've got . . .
12902.jpg


They are awesomely comfortable but I'm running nowhere in them. If I walk outside, I walk carefully! My feet absolutely love them, but they aren't really a good fit as they weren't formed over lasts. At some point I will get the tops torn off and the upper fitted over a last and refastened to the sole so they're a little more snug. The lump you see beneath the leather insole is an anti-arch support. I have them in all my shoes to prevent sore knees/hips from outward pronation, though all the others are a bit larger (not thicker).

What I really need is shoes I can run in for short distances. One of my specialties is longlining (double lunging) training. I still do clinics and lessons and need comfortable footwear to do it in plus I've got a mare I need to spend some time longlining so I can get her back to work. This is not a job I can turn over to anyone else. *I* must do it. Now that I've worn comfortable shoes for a while, I just can't face prying my feet into something that's too long and too narrow and doesn't support my feet properly.

Thus, I need shoes that will give me a good basis for walking and dashing.

I had a lovely talk with Frank Jones this morning and he gave me some suggestions which I've followed up on.

For now, this is how far I've gotten on my fitter.
12903.jpg


The outer is heavy wool felt and the lining is a single piece of black glove leather. The black lining will bite me in the ass if I ever wear them and get my feet wet. I *will* have black dye on my socks.

I had trouble sewing the leather and felt together by machine as I have the wrong needle in my Viking 6570. I need a bigger gauge leather needle instead of the 100/18 regular needle I used. I'll see if I can find some tomorrow. The felt is going to hide the crappy stitches (honestly, they aren't grotesque, just not perfect) and these are just fitters so I won't fuss.

And I can tell you right now, the collar isn't going to be tight enough . . .

Nori
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