Fitting the Foot

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jesselee
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#201 Post by jesselee »

All

I use either authentic mid to late 19th, century lasts or make lasts based on them. Up until The Civil War and later the cone of the last was straight as opposed to the innovation of the cone turning inwards toward the toes during late war, and afterwards. The heel is well rounded on the innersole as is the arch and the ball area is quite rounded also. . Thats all 19th century. For myself and my long time customers I have noticed an aspect of the foot that I can not recall being mentioned. That is that my feet and those whom have worn my boots have no callouses. Just soft. It is my contention after measuring a first time foot which always is calloused around the heel, forming 90% angles, that this is brought about by wearing boots or shoes made upon flat bottomed lasts, which whether store bought or custom bespoke, my feet reject. It would be interesting to have comments about your feet from wearing custom boots. I may be wrong about callouses, but it seems to be that the old style lasts don't create them, or rid the foot of them after 19th century boots are worn a long time.

JesseLee
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#202 Post by athan_chilton »

New post--new questions.

As a beginner, I've made shoes for myself & my husband. I got my initial lasts through the ShoeSchool, so they had our measurements & foot outlines & ordered what they felt would be the proper sizes/widths. So, I find that I have not really grasped what is necessary to choose a proper last for anyone and have not really been taught anything about it.

I have drawn the two outlines of my prospective customer's foot and laid a last that seems close to 'his size' on the drawings. The joint locations seem correct on both feet. The length looks ok--last extending out beyond the toes.

However, the drawing of his little toe extends out beyond that side of the last.

So...
Does this mean I should build up the last there?

Should the last measurement at that point be based upon the measurement of his foot at the same place?

After I did initial drawings & measurements of the feet, I had the fellow try on 2 pairs of shoes built on that last, one of which has never been worn & so (I presumed) it would fairly represent the fit of the last.

He felt the shoe was too large. And he was wearing substantial socks. The shoe store has him in a size to two sizes larger than this last. I figured I had to allow for the difference in fit between a low oxford (what I tried on him) and the high top 'athletic' shoe he was wearing--but I thought the lightweight low oxford would turn out to be too small for him, given the way the last looks when placed on my drawings of his foot!

So I'm quite confused. Hope I've clearly stated the source of my confusion, too. No wonder the discussion on fitting goes on and on. Now I'm adding to it, with a big heap of beginner confusion. I'm tempted to just go ahead and make him a test shoe & see how it turns out.

Any ideas/suggestions?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#203 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

Athan
Now the fun begins.
First why is he getting custom footwear?

Next, each person has a oerception of fit. Some are clampers, like tight fit and others are sloppers, they like to slid a finger or five behind the heel.

I have read that you can not get a shoe that resists 5 pounds per sg. foot. no pun intended. Comfort is in the 2-3 range down to zero. Depends on were on the foot and shoe style.

Forget any notion that a last and a shoe size from a comercial store have anything in common. Never tell the customer the size. Forget it it don't matter. The fit is what matters not some abritrary number.

If the fitting model was close then what are the differences between foot measure and actual last measurements.

If you can find a copy of Golding read it. But that is older english and some times hard to understand.

Can you send a pic of the tracing and last and foot if possible?

I try.. to take a pic of the feet if I remember to have the digital on hand.

Here is you homework. Look at as many last types on line and see the variance. Is your clients a banana foot or straight?

High arch / low arch. what is the prefered heel height?

Lots of thing you must consider.

Regards
Brendan
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#204 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

oops

This should be move to"fitting the foot". Sorry.
Please your humbleness. Execute your digital ways.

Dw
I am jealous you got some Scotch Grain. Ohh the memories.
No cash, or I would order some in.

As for being good for beginers, yes but, the more experianced, deserve it. Image
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#205 Post by lancepryor »

Athan:

My impression is that it is not uncommon for a custom lastmaker to make the last 'clip' both the small toe and the large toe when making the last. The large toe might be clipped as much as 1/4 inch, and the small toe perhaps 1/8 inch or a bit more. I've heard it said (can't really comment one way or the other) that you can clip the big toe the same amount as the last leaves room past the toes at the same point on the outside of the last -- i.e. the big toe can slide/rotate a bit to the outside as long as there is room for the other toes to do the same. Of course, excessive sideways pressure on the big toe can cause bunions, particularly as heels get higher and therefore also push the foot forward, which increases sideways pressure on the big toe.

Regarding the small toe, one thing you can do is measure the girth of the foot straight across from the inside joint (rather than or in addition to from joint to joint) -- this measurement will often capture the girth of the foot around the part of the foot that incorporates the small toe, hence helping to insure appropriate sizing around the small toe.

Remember also that the bottom of the last has a curvature to it, which increases the effective width of the last relative to a tracing or imprint taken on a flat surface.

I hope some more experienced folks will add their comments.

Lance
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#206 Post by athan_chilton »

Thanks Brendan and Lance! All good stuff for me to consider.

Brendan, the client wants me to make him shoes because he's curious and interested in the fact that I'm studying this craft. He saw the over-the-ankle buffalo leather boots I made for my husband (on a last that a professional chose, not me!) and got excited about them. He knows I am a beginner & am not going to promise anything I can't deliver. It is a learning experience for us both.

Lance, I already pointed out to this fellow that 'subjective' fit makes a lot of difference, and that the shoes he tried on (low, derby style) would NOT fit at all like the high top sneakers he customarily wears! I don't think he was aware of that, but I am Image

Also what do you mean by 'clipping'? Making it smaller? Thanks again!
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#207 Post by producthaus »

1) I measured my foot on a new last, and it looks clear that the width is too narrow. The tread line of the foot joint extends past the feather edge of the last by about 6mm on each side. This last is a 10.5 D USA - does that warrant going up to an E size, or can I try a leather build-up on either side?

2) What type of glue do people use for build-ups - is cement (Titan DX?)OK to use?

3) Is it acceptable to say that a particular last style, like the italian one below, requires that every customer use a .5 size larger, due to the more narrow area past the joint? Or should the last be designed to properly fit a customer's foot at their respective size? I could see the design of this last being tweaked a bit to curve out the area forward of the joint a bit more, instead of leaving the customer with a size that is .5 bigger with some air at the toe, and feels like they are walking in clown shoes.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#208 Post by artzend »

Nick

Use 25mm or so strips of leather, rubber, eva and build out the last on both sides, there is enough toe room. You will have to settle for a wider toe shape or it will look odd, but you need to fit your toes in anyway. Build out to the tread line, the inner line, overlap the feather edge, any extra volume goes on top.

Use contact adhesive, let it dry between coats, re heat the adhesive on the buildup material and press it in place while the glue is warm, hammer if you like to get rid of air, and grind, or trim back before adding a second layer. Grind the top edge back to the last before the second layer too, and repeat if you need to.

Your heel looks ok for the last, it's only the forepart that requires work.

Tim
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#209 Post by dw »

Nick,

First, I'm not sure you have the last positioned over the footprint correctly.

Your foot has a first and second metatarsal head. That's unchangeable. So, how much room do you think they take up? And how much room on the bottom of the last do you think ought to be allotted for those met heads?

Point is, personally I think the last ought to be shifted medially. Unless you are prepared to feather a build-up from the medial ball all the way back to the heel, I suspect the foot will not "settle" into the space created by a medial build-up at the ball alone and you will end up with a gap between your first toe and the edge of the insole.

If you move the last medially over the print, you can see that the first met head and the big toe will fit inside the last a little better than is represented by your photo. And you will see that the build-up probably needs to go more to the lateral side than the medial. My teacher always said two-thirds lateral, one-third medial.I tend to favour all to the lateral side unless some other aspect indicates otherwise.

Beyond that you can use all-purpose or, if you rough up the last well and watch your drying times, Titan -DX will work. I've tried it and I like it...no heat recovery with Titan DX, however.

Finally, you're just scratching the surface here when it comes to fit. You have to balance heel-to-ball length with heel seat width, with girths, with tread line width, (in order of precedence) and they must all be right on the money either through the selection of the last or modification.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 30, 2010)

(Message edited by dw on November 30, 2010)
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#210 Post by fred_coencped »

Nick,Been a while..........
Follow the Foot.
Consider an inflared foot vs a straight last.First MPJ IMO needs more build medially at the 1st MPJ. Your tread line looks to be too far distally at the 1st mpj.Also the last feather line around the medial big toe,[not mpj] can undercut the big toe,as DW suggest.
Fred
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#211 Post by producthaus »

Thanks for the info. I will post a revised image after a build-up. Fred, can you define "MPJ"?
last_maker

Re: Fitting the Foot

#212 Post by last_maker »

Nick,
MPJ is an acronym for metatarsal phalangeal joint. Meaing the joint of your toes. In this case, the first large toe joint along the ball break.
the the last question, last week we were scaresly discussing swing lines.

The last you present to be using, it appears that it's orginal design, your swing line is along the lateral border not down center of the foot or alinged medially when designed. If you align both your foot and your last along the lateral boarder as discribed in one "last question" http://www.thehcc.org/discus/messages/4/1187.html?1291142986 last week You might find an revelation to buildup and fit and still maintain your lasts' smart looking style.

Just a thought.

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

(Message edited by Last_maker on November 30, 2010)
chuck_deats

Re: Fitting the Foot

#213 Post by chuck_deats »

Nick,
Good question, Excellent illustration, Good answers. I learned something. Thank you.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#214 Post by producthaus »

Either the TitanDX, 6oz insole shoulder, or sharp edge to the last caused my build up to fail tonight.

The leather did not want to bend around the edge of the last, and when I hammered it down, the other side would become unstuck.

I want to continue to use TitanDX because it's not toxic, should I try cork? I think I would be able to source that more easily than another leather.



(Message edited by producthaus on December 06, 2010)
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#215 Post by producthaus »

Re-sized image...
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#216 Post by courtney »

Nick, I think you need to ruff up the plastic and also skive the edges of your leather.

Courtney
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#217 Post by artzend »

Nick

If you use leather like that you need to skive it first or it won't wrap, maybe brush a little water on the outside surface of the strip after you re heat it. That would make it more maleable and won't affect the glue.

Tim
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#218 Post by paul »

Nick,

I lay a thinner layer down first when I have alot of build up to do. The thicker layers will stick better on top of that.
Oh, lay the grain side down first and shape from the flesh side. That will help too.

Paul
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#219 Post by dw »

Nick,

The TitanDX must dry thoroughly--it takes at least a half hour. Also...rough up the last as has already been mentioned, and rough up the grain side of the build up. The grain side is denser so it bends less...put it next to the last.

Paul is spot on about using thinner layers and more of them rather than one thick layer. My old mum used to call that a "lazy man's load."

A little water on the flesh side couldn't hurt although then you'll have to wait for it to dry before adding another build up.

When everything is stuck properly, drive tacks through the build up and into the last. This is especially critical along the feather edge of the last and in that first (thinner) layer. I use 5/8" blued toplift nails (about 18 gauge).

I used TitanDX on a last I was working on recently and it seemed to work fine. I was just playing with it and I didn't have much of it. I am not sure whether I used it to cement build ups directly to the last or if I just was cementing build ups to other build ups. But supposedly it was formulated to work with "decorative laminates"--which are no more porous than the last.

It should work.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#220 Post by fred_coencped »

Hello Nick et al,

rough up leather flesh and grain,naturally last too

apply 1st layer of Masters All Purpose to last and leather and let dry approx 10 minutes

place leather build up in water allowing moisture to penetrate from the grain side to the flesh side as much as what makes leather malleable,Sponging is good too.

then you can use a heat gun carefully on the grain side for a color change back to its original flesh color.Moisture content is still in the fibers for shaping.

Add 2nd coat of All Purpose,let try until Tacky

I find pre skiving initially really works perfect with heavier leathers

Also works most excellent with heavy
leather soling

I like the idea of nails as DW suggest and yes the drying time is time consuming.Heat will both quicken the time and harden your build up as you`ll tap with your crispin hammer compressing your build up too.If you manage your moisture content initially to a level of Minimal,the dry time can still be quick.

Your build up will mold well and hold.No problem with very heavy leathers

Fred
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#221 Post by piper »

I'm a total newbie and have been working from the patterns and instructions from Sharon Raymond. I decided to try to modify a pattern to make a one-piece pattern that will slip on yet be as high up on my foot as possible. Is there a guideline for how big the opening has to be or where on the top of the foot you should avoid having the opening rest? If questions of this low level are not allowed, please let me know and I'll not bother everyone here.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#222 Post by dearbone »

Diane,

Welcome,No question about shoe making is low level,About this "one-piece pattern that will slip on", do you mean low as a pump( a low cut shoe that covers just a little above the toes) or something else?If it is a pump,(no laces) than you need it to cover the joints,The little toe and the bone of the big toe and a good sharp seam in the back,select a last that fits you and take a form of the outside of the left last,while the tape or what-ever you using for this,mark and shape of the front curve,top line and height of the pump while the tape is on the last just like drawing on one side of the last,when you finished,cut the tape on the top center or better yet,make your cut above the lines you drew and peel the rest of the tape to the feather,Place it on a folded piece of paper and get the whole one,It is a good pattern to learn from, I am sure i left some unsaid here others hopefully will fill.

Working with patterns not drafted by you is fine for a short time to practice,but eventually you want to learn to make your own.

Nasser
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#223 Post by lancepryor »

Diane:

For shoes like loafers and other slip-ons, I believe a good rule of thumb is to make the opening 1/2 of the last length. Of course, you can always make it longer, but since you are looking for as much coverage as possible, that is probably a good place to start.

Lance
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#224 Post by piper »

Thank you. Yes I meant that I wanted as small an opening as possible, not close to my toes like ladies pumps. I want the least amount of sunburn, display of my ugly socks or dirt getting in as possible.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#225 Post by producthaus »

Double-post. Admin can delete this.

(Message edited by producthaus on December 07, 2010)
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