sewing machines

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Message
Author
tmattimore
5
5
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:00 am
Full Name: Tom Mattimore

Re: sewing machines

#851 Post by tmattimore » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:35 pm

If you are timed for a 134 "type" needle you can buy them up to size 130 still a little small for a size 92 thread. If you check around they may go bigger. They are available in both "r" and "lr"
134 is a needle system
135 is a needle system both are very similar in size and may not need a timing adjustment.
R is a round point for cloth and leather
LR is a sharp point for leather
If you are not confused yet they are available in twist points as well. If you change the needle system you may have to retime the machine.

anakim
1
1
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:52 am
Full Name: Kimberlee Callaghan
Location: Vancouver, Canada/Jerez de la Frontera, Spain

Re: sewing machines

#852 Post by anakim » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:04 am

Hello:

I want to reply to the posts from a few months ago, about taking apart patchers. I don't know whether to start a new conversation cause this one has changed. Sorry, I am new here.
I am so grateful to find the excellent information above! I have been working on a 29K15 for a while now, and currently am trying to remove the shuttle carrier driving pinion, so that I can replace the bushing (whole thing flops around a lot and I figure it's due to the bushing). I can't figure out how to get the pinion off. There are two tiny holes in the cylindrical sides, one of which has nothing in it and the other is filled with something which may or may not be a screw. But I don't see any 1 mm screws listed in the parts list! I have heated it up with a blow torch in case it was stuck, I have pulled on it and even bashed it with a hammer to try to drive the post (presumable attached to the carrier) out and the pinion off, but I don't want to wreck it. Can someone tell me by what means the pinion stays on the post? If it is simply due to a good fit, I'll keep pulling and prodding.
Thank you!!

eric_e

Re: sewing machines

#853 Post by eric_e » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:41 am

Kimberlee:

At the risk of offering advice without having mastered the basics of bootmaking, I'll make a comment or two.

Since "...the other [hole] is filled with something which may or may not be a screw" it may be best to see what, exactly, it is filled with.

Parts lists do have errors. Manufacturing runs change. Replacement parts aren't always identical, and I tend to trust my own eyes and what's in front of me.

Cleaning the hole out with a toothpick or old toothbrush and shining a flashlight (torch?) in to see what's there may help. If the screw is tight, some good lubricant doesn't hurt, nor does a screwdriver with a well-formed tip that fits the slot. Clean out any debris and press firmly so the screwdriver doesn't slip and mangle it. As a last resort, I would rather sacrifice the pinion gear by grinding or drilling, than breaking the cast iron arm.

Others may some thoughts about just how much looseness matters. It's possible that the bushing is not the whole problem, and that replacing the rack and following pinion may help. And getting the gears meshed so that the shuttle hook just clears the eye of the needle on the back swing.

What is the problem exactly? Is the thread bunching or skipping?

Eric

dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: sewing machines

#854 Post by dai » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:03 pm

Kimberlee, I looked at my 27k13 which is of similar construction in the shuttle carrier pinion set to your 27k15. Mine too would be hard to remove from the stud it is mounted on, in my case because the end of the stud has been mushroomed over by an enthusiastic hammerer it seems. However ...

The parts list for your machine is at http://www.siruba.co.uk/29K1_4_10_12_18_23_30%20TO%20K33.pdf

You will see in the shuttle carrier section for the 29k15 variant there is a small list of associated components, including part 8645, a pin. The shuttle carrier is part 81900. These parts are illustrated in the plates, and which plate to see is indicated in the parts list variant for your machine. That said I too see a hole where the pin could go, though I cannot see the other end of it immediately (without a cleaning job perhaps). Could be that you just need to drive the pin out, with a punch in the narrow end, smallest hole. Good luck.

User avatar
courtney
6
6
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:46 am
Full Name: courtney schamach
Location: petaluma, california, u.s.a.

Re: sewing machines

#855 Post by courtney » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:34 pm

D.W. & Tom, thanks for your help!
I found some 135x8 that actually were called 134lthr or something in size 20 and 22.

They are too big for 92 thread I think because the bobbin thread kept pulling up no matter how I adjusted the tension.
Size 18 worked fine though.

I keep hearing not to put too big of threat in31 class but the manual says 31-20 has needles up to 23 I think so, couldn't I use the thread that fit a 23?

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#856 Post by dw » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:38 am

Courtney,

I cannot think how the needle size would cause problems. The needle has nothing to do with tension. mechanically it should make no difference.

If the size 18 needle works with the 92 thread you should be good to go but I worry that this problem will just crop up again.

And frankly I have never known anyone who used that heavy a thread in a 31 class machine.

All that said, I vaguely remember someone telling me that with larger needles the timing may have to be adjusted. Why? I don't use heavy threads or large needles in my 31's so I didn't pay much attention.

Bottom line is that there may be better machines to do what you're doing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

tmattimore
5
5
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:00 am
Full Name: Tom Mattimore

Re: sewing machines

#857 Post by tmattimore » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:44 am

With larger needles in the 31-15 you may start to get needle clearance issues. I.E. the needle is too close to the shuttle hook and may rub on it I also have never heard of any one using heavier than 69 thread on a class 15.

artzend
7
7
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Tim Skyrme
Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#858 Post by artzend » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:15 pm

Courtney

With the larger needle you will probably need to move the presser wheel a bit because of the thickness of the needle.

You can get away with a thin thread for the bobbin, in most cases you don't need the same thickness for the bobbin thread that you use for the top thread.

I used to use a 21 needle with a very heavy thread and a light bobbin thread to sew round the edge of sandals to hold the midsole on and also to provide a decorative effect.

Tim

dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: sewing machines

#859 Post by dai » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:20 pm

Kimberlee, It -is- a pin that retains the 29k13 shuttle carrier pinion, photo shows the pinion removed from the shuttle carrier, and the pin and holes. It was hard to see the pin at all in place until I took all outdoors into bright light and slight traces of the pin ends surfaces could be seen. Then it was easy to identify a slight indent where the pin had been driven in with some tool, and with a pin head punch I drove it out from the other side. From the parts list it seems the 29k15 is the same in the carrier pinion region. As for wear on the bushing, yes it is there, at both ends, in my case. What harm it does to sewing I haven't noticed. The parts:
15192.jpg

anakim
1
1
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:52 am
Full Name: Kimberlee Callaghan
Location: Vancouver, Canada/Jerez de la Frontera, Spain

Re: sewing machines

#860 Post by anakim » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:57 pm

Thank you so much Eric and David!
I don't know how I missed seeing that pin 8645 in the parts list. that is a great photo. I should have waited to get your information, but I drilled out the pin, because it did not go through to the other side. I think someone must have drilled a hole in one side of a pinion that was meant to be a follower, not an original shuttle carrier pinion. The two holes I had were at something like a 90 degree angle. Anyways, it was not the bushing because I managed to push the pinion on more tightly and now everything is less sloppy. Now the fun begins, of trying to figure out how to make this machine sew! It is finally doing so, but only with one specific thread and needle... thanks again, I really appreciate having someone else there who has similar machines and experience.

dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: sewing machines

#861 Post by dai » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:49 pm

Kimberlee, yes I noticed a hole at right angles; an oilway perhaps, to stop the pin rusting. Who can say. Good luck with your machine. This "surgery" is the only activity mine has seen in years.

jonathan_doolan

Re: sewing machines

#862 Post by jonathan_doolan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:42 am

I have a Singer 236 that has something strange happening with the tensioning. The only way that I can get anything approaching even tension is to crank the top tension in as far as possible. Having done that, the top thread is still slightly visible on the underside of the leather - it acts as though there isn't enough top tension. At vastly irregular intervals the top thread will lie on the surface for a few stitches with the bobbin thread showing - which is what I would expect given the difference in top and bobbin settings - and then it returns to the previous outcome. The bobbin thread will also show on the top surface for one stitch when I change direction.

The machine was dropping stitches when I first got it running, and I replaced the hook and bobbin case which seemed to take care of that problem. I also timed it.

Any suggestions as to what might be going on with the tension would be much appreciated.

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#863 Post by dw » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:22 am

Jonathon,

I'm sure you have it correct, but honestly...it sounds like you've taken a wrong turn threading it. Like the take-up lever or take-up spring isn't engaging the way it should.

If you can post a pic of the machine--full frontal, maybe it would reveal a problem...or not.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

bobcann
1
1
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm
Full Name: Robert J. Cannell
Location: Norristown, PA, USA

Re: sewing machines

#864 Post by bobcann » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:46 pm

Jonathon,

Also, make sure that you have the presser foot lever up when threading between the tension discs. The upper thread must be all the way in between the discs for them to operate correctly. Like DWFII says, check the threading. Best advise there is to unthread the machine completely and re-thread it. A long shot is that something is keeping the bobbin thread tension too tight, but more than likely it's your upper threading that's causing the problem.

Robert

bobcann
1
1
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm
Full Name: Robert J. Cannell
Location: Norristown, PA, USA

Re: sewing machines

#865 Post by bobcann » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:04 pm

Jonathon,

A second thought is to check the bobbin case. If it has been squashed, it might be holding the bobbin from spinning. Thread it up and pull the thread to see if it gives resistance to your pulling. There should be some resistance, but not an excessive amount. Also, make sure that the thread isn't wound around the post in the bobbin case.

Robert

elfn
3
3
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:00 am
Full Name: Nori Lamphere
Location: Onalaska, WA, USA
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#866 Post by elfn » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:25 am

If you've done everything and you're still having problems, there are two more things to try.

Clean the tension disks with alcohol or gooBgone. If you don't want to disassemble the tension assembly, soak fingering weight yarn or crochet thread in alcohol and run it through the tension system a couple times.

If that doesn't solve the problem it might be the thread. What I would do for cloth will not work for leather as running a line of oil down the side of the spool of thread will discolor the leather.

artzend
7
7
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Tim Skyrme
Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#867 Post by artzend » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:55 pm

Jonathon

Make sure the thread has been pulled down into the centre of the tension plates.

Tim

jonathan_doolan

Re: sewing machines

#868 Post by jonathan_doolan » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:36 pm

DW, Robert, Nori, and Tim. Thanks to all for the advice. My path through this would fall heavily into the doing the simplest thing last department.... First, I spoke to a service tech at Arch Sewing in Philadelphia on Friday afternoon (They deal in used industrial machines, and I bought parts for the 236 from them.) who seemed to immediately recognize the problem, which he diagnosed as the tab on the bobbin case base (the part that keeps the bobbin case from spinning in the hook) being too close to the hook, or possibly the hook being too close to the needle. Having tried to follow what I thought he told me, I'm still fully unclear on how you can adjust the tab - it definitely doesn't want to bend, and there are no other adjustments. Failing at that, I switched the bobbin case base with one from an old hook assembly, and nothing changed with the tension. I then moved the hook away from the needle with the same non-result. After that I changed the hook gib to a blunter version that came from the old hook to see if having the upper thread release earlier would help, and still nothing. I should add that some days prior to all this, I had taken apart the top tension assembly, checked the discs, replaced the thread tension spring, and re-assembled and adjusted it, all to no effect. Finally, just for the hell of it, I switched to a larger needle (from 128x6/100 to 128x6/110) and it immediately started sewing properly, and continues to sew properly (except for the bobbin thread being pulled to the top when I change direction). It's an embarrassingly simple solution, which I don't fully understand (I'm using 69 nylon thread, by the way), and I'm wondering if any of you have an explanation. Thanks again for bothering to respond to the initial question.

paul
8
8
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#869 Post by paul » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:51 pm

I wish I could add to any kind of conclusion, and I don't know needle sizes w/o looking, but I thought from the beginning your needle was not big enough to pull the knot into the hole, and that it was alternating between on top and below the material as you adjusted the tensions. I'll also guess your leather is very firm, like a waxed calf. Is that so?
Glad you're on to the answer.
Paul

jonathan_doolan

Re: sewing machines

#870 Post by jonathan_doolan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:59 am

Paul.

I was using scraps of something fairly soft so I'm not sure the leather was a problem, but what you're saying about the needle not being large enough to pull the knot into the hole makes sense to me.

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#871 Post by dw » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:35 pm

But...if IIRC, a 110 is the same as a size 18 needle. And size 16 (100) will easily and comfortably handle a size 69 thread....on all my machines at least

So...what that tells me is that it's back to some problem with upper tensioning because even the hole made by a size 16 needle is big enough to allow the "knot" in a size 69 thread to pull up. Esp. if the bobbin thread is no larger than 69. Obviously it is not being pulled up, but it is not the needle's job to pull the thread up, and it is the thread itself that gets pulled up. So, if you're using the proper size needle for the thread the problem has to be elsewhere. You see? By process of elimination.

I might suggest...if you're sure the threading is correct...that you look for worn grooves in the take-up lever and the take-up spring and even in the tensioning discs or the threaded spindle onto which the tensioning discs are mounted. Sometimes with old machines a deep groove can be worn into the relatively soft metal by synthetic threads such as nylon.

And, although I know you said you had timed the machine, I'd re-check it. Because it can get knocked off.

Finally, just for your own peace of mind, when you load a needle, set it slightly lower...about 1mm or less...than it would normally be when the needle was at it's highest point in the needle bar. I have a 136 and sometimes it sews better with the needle slightly low.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

jonathan_doolan

Re: sewing machines

#872 Post by jonathan_doolan » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:52 am

DW. I haven't looked at the take-up lever that closely, but the discs, and the spindle seem okay, and I replaced the take-up spring. I'm traveling at the moment, and I'll check the take-up lever when I get back. I'm almost positive that I have the machine threaded correctly, but I'll post a picture. The way I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the needle and the take-up lever are working together to lock the stitch into the leather - pulling on the bobbin thread on the upstroke once it's looped around the upper thread - and it still makes sense to me that if the needle were too small then there wouldn't be enough tension for this too happen - too much friction on the thread. I also take the point (no pun intended) that the difference in the needle size doesn't seem significant - though it does appear to have solved most of the problem - and this should be an upper tension issue.

The timing doesn't seem to be a factor - the machine stitches regularly, and it isn't dropping stitches.

I'll try your suggestion of setting the needle slightly lower.

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: sewing machines

#873 Post by dw » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:42 am

I don't know all machines and between my Pfaff 470 class, my Singer 136 and my 31 class Singers, all seem to work a little different. But in all cases the needle begins its descent before the take up lever. The take up lever and the needle seem to descend together (although not in sync) but the needle always bottoms out before the take up lever. And, on the ascent, the needle hits its apogee/high point well before the take up lever does.

It is also worth noting that the take up spring can be adjusted in many cases both for position and tension. Most of the time you can't just shove it in there behind the tensioning discs.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 2 times

Re: sewing machines

#874 Post by lancepryor » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:16 pm

DW and Jonathan:

It is probably obvious, but the needle does need to 'bottom out' before the take up lever, because you need to get a loop in the thread as the needle ascends -- that is what the hook catches as it passes. If the take up lever went up with the needle, it would take the thread back up and, voila, no loop for the hook to catch.

Lance

User avatar
farmerfalconer
4
4
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:19 am
Full Name: Cody Howdy
Location: NC, USA

Re: sewing machines

#875 Post by farmerfalconer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:05 am

Found this machine for sale at an upholsterer in my town which apparently used to have a shoe factory in it. It is a Singer
by the
Hudson Shoe Machine Co.
Haverhill, MA
and the number is 236G100.

Anyone know anything about it? It does run and the guy ran some scraps through it for me.
15209.png

15208.png

\image

Post Reply