Seeking knowledge or survey

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
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dw
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#626 Post by dw »

I have several widths of a very heavily ribbed nylon tape...some of it as narrow as 4mm, some of it half an inch wide. I have used the narrow stuff "as is" and the wider stuff by cutting along the edge of the roll inward about 3 or 4 mm then just peeling it off the roll.

Either way works good but the real issue I wanted to mention was the heavy ribbing. It is almost like corduroy with the ribs running across the width of the tape. This allows the tape to turn corners (inside corners or outside) with much less of the binding, buckling or lifting that you get with smooth tapes.

I try to always put mine under the folded edge or incorporate it into any top bead I am making for the simple reason that I suspect it is not nearly as effective if it is not caught by the topline stitching.

On the other hand it is hard to find cement or glue that will adhere to nylon. And if you do it tends to be a solvent for the adhesive that is already on the underside of commercial topline tapes.

If you do a google for "topline tape" or "top line tape" you will find several firms that make top line tape for the industry. Sometimes calling and tactfully pleading your case (suggesting that you might be interested in purchasing more) can get a sample sent out.

There is also a contact here on the forum... Global Supply at 508 7880077, I think it is...that sells small quantities of topline and double sided adhesive tape.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#627 Post by dw »

Sorry..it's United Global Supply...508 279 0021

www.unitedglobalsupply.com
cwilliams@unitedglobalsupply.com

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marcell

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#628 Post by marcell »

DW,

my tape (and I believe Rick's one also - as he bought that here in Hungary) is self adhesive one. As easy as it can be...
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#629 Post by artzend »

Athan

Yes you are right, that is probably why your shoes do not sit right. It is easy to pull them out of shape if there is no tape.

Because the tape is narrow, or should be, curving is not a problem, and you can split a wide tape if you like as the stitching will hold it and I see no reason for it to fray.

Marcell,
I never had a topline tape with adhesive on it, and just glued it into place. At one stage I had some that was like a thread, but mostly I used 3mm flat tape.

Tim
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#630 Post by marcell »

Tim,

I had an old device to put the glue onto the tape. We don't use it, since these new ones appeared.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#631 Post by artzend »

My old device was a brush, I think the self adhesive one would avoid the odd accident.

Tim
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#632 Post by marcell »

My devise was a glue pot with a hole on the top and some stong wire to guide it - so you could work continously with it. BTW we used textile tape that time.. The new ones are clean, easy and you can make a perfect job with them.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#633 Post by mmboots »

Here's a question for everyone. I've been reading the book Hand made Shoes for men. In it it talks about becoming a shoe maker back in the 1700. It states that as one of the final test was that the shoemaker had to make 4 pair of shoes and boots in eight days. My question is how could one do this? With all my equipment that I have in my shop I cant get any where near this. Thanks

Mike
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#634 Post by das »

Mike,

Historical rates of production in the 1700s and into the 1800s (when doing welted shoes) was consistently 1 day per pair in a 6/day work week--the lasts were selected or fitted-up and the uppers patterned and clicked (by the shop master or by his clickers), and closed (by the closers) so "making", then, in those days only referred to what we'd call lasting, bottoming, and finishing.

Giving the young tyro 2 whole days per pair begins to make sense if he was expected to make his own uppers (as a skills test) as well. The quality of apprentice work varied, but we're not talking "prize work" here, just unsupervised/un-guided "solo" work to test his mastery of fundamental skills--this is the historical meaning of "master-piece" in all events, as opposed to today's popular notion that it was universally some super-fine piece of work.

Also, the typical men's shoes of the 1700s were far simpler creations (no full linings, fewer parts and pieces) than modern hand-sewns, especially of the varieties shown in Vass's book. It's apples and oranges really. In the 1700s and beyond, shoemaking was typically piece-work as well--the master only paid each journeyman per pair satisfactorily "made", so their motivation was to work well, but fast, and competition was ferocious especially in cities and towns where shoemakers were usually one of the top 3 trades.

A common man's 18thc pair of shoes can still be lasted, bottomed, and finished in one long and grueling day, and probably in 2 days if the same workman has to click and close his own uppers. But few today could sustain that level of output and 10-12 hour work days.
marcell

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#635 Post by marcell »

My idea: upper making wasn't included, so this is perfectly possible. In my exams luckily I didn't have to make 4 pairs, but finish half hand sewn one in 8 hours.

And something else to consider: in the 17th century shoe and bootmaking was definitely a different craft. Different like shoemakers wasn't allowed to build a boot and reverse. I don't think that this kind of exams could happen. And there are also some issues with that book which can consider as a mistake.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#636 Post by mmboots »

D.A.

Thanks for the response to my question. I still can't seem to put a pair together in two days let alone one day. In my shop I do all the work from start to finish, so maybe I should give myself a little more credit on my work time. I do spend 12 hours a day in my shop(I do shoe and boot repair too). Thanks again I really like understand the history of shoemaking and trying to keep the craft going forward.

Mike
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#637 Post by das »

Marcell,

From old books without "mistakes" a 1775 Berlin apprenticeship test was:

"Each shoemaker must be able to manufacture all men's and women's shoes and boots, but in the larger cities there are shoemakers that normally and most skillfully make women's shoes or, in contrast men's shoes and boots. Their apprentices study for four years as one says 'free'--if they submit an apprenticeship fee, then they study only three years. A young master makes for a master-piece: one pair of cavalry boots, one pair of ordinary German and grain boots of calfskin; one pair of men's of the same; one pair of women's shoes, and finally one pair of ladies' slippers. The apprentice lads of the slipper-maker study three years, and their young master must exhibit a master-piece of one pair of men's and one pair of women's slippers. Each have either a rand, or are 'triple-stitched', or turned. The slipper-maker and the shoemaker preserve an old professional rivalry between themselves." [P. N. Sprengel's and Otto L. Hartwig's 'Handwerke und Kuensteller', vol. 11, pp. 255-256]

From an anonymous German text titled 'Der Schuster', dating somewhere after 1722 [related to Adrian Beiers' 'Lexicon' entry], now preserved at the Bally Shoe Museum (accession #4145):

"A long time ago, the cobbler or shoemaker [sic], which is a trade provided with well-established regulations, pursued the making of six pieces for a master-piece; namely, three pairs of men's boots, among which one was provided with a seam above, a pair of 'Possler'[?] boots, a pair of women's boots, a pair of children's shoes. For this, the youngest master was allowed two days for preparation; on another day he was to cut [click?]. He still might not pass completely because all of this work had to be done according to a long outmoded style. They changed this a few years ago, and now, in almost all the cities of the empire, they make new master-pieces that are useful and salable; namely, a pair of riding boots; a pair of men's and a pair of women's shoes, all according to the newest and finest fashions; a pair of campaign shoes; and another pair of men's and women's slippers, both of which the young masters prefer to make."

According to the same writer even the cobblers had standards:

"There are incoming masters who are bound to make a certain very difficult master-piece, which they must mend as new and are allowed fourteen days for the pattern and just as many days to master it. These master-pieces consist of a pair of women's boots, a pair of baby's or children's boots, and a pair of big straps [shoes]; they must be of leather, not only cut but also made and completely sewn so well that one cannot see any stitch or seam on the outside. Not to mention that the women's boots are very diligently and artificially decorated on top of the edge[?] [Kronlein] in a particular manner."

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there..."--L.P. Hartley

Mike,

Don't feel bad! You're just not making the same kinds of shoes under the same economic conditions as shoemakers of the 1700s--be thankful for that.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#638 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

D.A. Thanks for posting that information. Quite interesting indeed!

Can you clarify a few terms please?

German and grain boots
one was provided with a seam above,
a pair of 'Possler'[?]
a pair of big straps [shoes];

Due to the diverse languages of the trade and interpretations of same, it is nice to understand the terminology.

You must have a big library.
Happy New Year to all
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#639 Post by dearbone »

Brendan, I met the man,when it comes to the trade, He is the library, A walking one of course.
I am also wondering what a pair Possler look like.

Happy new year to all.
marcell

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#640 Post by marcell »

Al,

I am sure you have good books full with precisious information about the ancient shoemaking history.
On the other hand I am also sure that the book Mike mentioned contains mistakes. (for example: check how long thread he suggest to use for welt stitching! And this is only one)
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#641 Post by das »

Brendan,

Thanks for asking about these.

1) 18thc. boots were typically made in most countries of waxed calf (flesh out), but grain-out was becoming fashionable (e.g. some "draw boots", mock-calf on deerskin for light summer wear, "cordovan" or ass/horse-hide, etc.) , hence demonstrating you could do either/or. Read Rees (1813) for the differences in closing grain versus waxed uppers (and boots), or 'Art of the Shoemaker' for more details on English, German, and French bootmaking tricks and tastes in that era.

2) "Seam above..." is a mystery. It could mean closed outside (visible) versus inside (hidden), IOW a seam that showed. Some rigid jackboots and postillion boots had the leg seam up the center front of the bootleg, no seam or just a "mock seam" (row of stitches for show) up the back where we're used to seeing the bootkeg closed. I'm just speculating here though.

3) "Possler" is another mystery-word. Best suggestion I got was it was a form of postillion (see my 'Art of the Shoemaker' for step-by-step how-to, illustrations and explanations).

4) "Big straps"=buckle shoes with "big" (wide?) straps for buckles. The iconic 18thc buckled shoes were made and sold sans buckles. The wearer merely affixed whatever shoe buckles they owned/liked to cinch them shut, like we put cuff links and studs on Tuxedo shirts--IOW the buckles were not integral with the shoes or sold with them, but were transferable jewelry. So, to the shoemakers, it was all about the buckle-straps, nothing to do with the actual buckles.

I'm double-posting this to 'Art of the Shoemaker', where any further book-related comments or queries are welcome BTW.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#642 Post by das »

Marcell,

I never marked-up my copy of Vass' book for mistakes, but I'm sure there may be some in there. I was merely trying to set the record straight for you on the 1700s German apprentice requirements you brought up yesterday, being skeptical of the details that Vass gave.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#643 Post by dw »

Marcel,
On the other hand I am also sure that the book Mike mentioned contains mistakes. (for example: check how long thread he suggest to use for welt stitching! And this is only one)


I am not sure what is being referred to here...what is the book? Where does it talk about welt thread? And how long is the waxed end supposed to be, do you think?

Tight Stitches
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#644 Post by marcell »

Well, Vass is my competitor in Hungary, so I don't intend to criticise him here or anywhere else. I shouldn't have mentioned before anything - that book is perfect.

(Message edited by Marcell on January 02, 2010)
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#645 Post by amuckart »

This may be off-topic for this board, but I couldn't find anywhere better to post this.

What are the options available to people who want to join the HCC but are outside of the USA and can't pay by cheque?

I could draw a money order in US funds each year, but that costs near as much as the dues.

Thanks.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#646 Post by amuckart »

To what extent are lasts worth acquiring for someone who wants to start making shoes and boots but is frankly unlikely to take it up professionally in the forseeable future?

The same chap I mentioned over in the sewing machines forum has several hundred pairs of lasts in graded sizes, both wooden and plastic, in various styles. He also has the standards and pattern knives for them but since I don't have a clicking press and may not want to make those exact styles, that's a moot point.

Some of them I want to buy in my size, my wife's size and maybe a size either side of that, but I'm struggling to see a lot of point in buying any more than that.

Does anyone have sage advice?

Thanks.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#647 Post by jon_g »

I don't know about where you are, but here lasts are hard to come by and/or expensive. If you like the look of them and have the storage space and money.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#648 Post by romango »

You can usually pick up a few used lasts for $20 or less/ea if you shop around.

I highly recommend you do this. Don't get more until you know more what you are after.

- Rick
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#649 Post by das »

Dear Alasdair,
Thanks for your question. I have found a nice alternative for exchanging currencies here in Virginia, so if you will contact me directly I’ll be happy to send you the information. My email is mcsaguto@aol.com, and I look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks again,
Miriam Saguto
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#650 Post by amuckart »

Thank you Miriam, I'll email you right now
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