Insole leather

[erickgeer]

Okay, the question Ed posted reminded me of stuff I've been thinking about

I am just learning how to inseam - I don't have a splitter yet, so I am pretty much limited to the thickness of my leather for insoles. how different is inseaming a 6 or 8 iron insole, from 10/11? I know I will still be using a heavy insole for some pieces, but will I be starting from scratch when I get my hands on a splitter, and I can use lighter insoles where appropriate?
Do I need a different inseaming awl for lighter insoles?

I'm just full of questions today.

Erick

[dw]

Ed,

This bootmaker's not using 8 iron insole leather. I use 10 1/2 - 11 iron. I just mentioned it for Randy and for those shoemakers who sometimes do use a lighter insole leather especially for ladies work.

--
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

[cmw]

Edward

The question about the insole for shoes is easy if you use a gemming strip that is glued to the insole. The insoles we use at work are 3-3.5 mm thick. The density of the leather is compact.

For the most part it is a method that takes a little practice. The gemmin doesn’t have the pre-made holes like the boot makers method of insole, so the welt can be a wild animal once finished. it takes practice, therefore I would recommend the traditional insole to keep the line straight and clean.

With that said, the insole doesn’t have to be that heavy when it is not a boot(work shoe/boot/tool). I would think that it should be looked upon as a light boot.

I hope this helps a little.
CW

[shoestring]

Chris,
That bit of info was a help but what is ment by "gemming" could you elaborate a bit more on what that type of method is.

Ed

[erickgeer]

My friend that I have mentioned with the salvaged boot parts had a couple of insoles in his bin, they had an interesting holdfast, I'm sure it has been mentioned before, it has a fabric reinforcement on the chanel side. Two cuts are made, and the flaps are folded perpendicular to the insole to create the holdfast:


It looks like a machine made build.

Al,
I found a posting where you said that you use 5/6 iron insoles, do you create a channel and feather the same way DW does?

(Message edited by erickgeer on May 05, 2004)

[erickgeer]

Sorry, I accidentaly loaded a Huuuge picture:

3023.jpg

[das]

Erick,

I memory serves, that kind of holdfast [rib], formed by dual cuts into the insole, then folded up, was the first version used for Goodyear machine welted footwear. As time passed, and it was found that inconsistencies in insole leather was a problem, so that folded-up holdfast was reinforced with a strip of canvas. The next "improvement" was the stuck-on "Gem" rib [AKA gemming], which allowed for a variety of insole leathers, thicknesses and qualities. There's a "Gem" machine, for feeding, positioning, and cementing that Gem rib in place. The date of it...? Not sure. I *think* I've seen stuck on Gem ribs as early as the 1920, but it may be a bit earlier. The first type of Goodyear holdfast, dual cuts folded up and cemented, I *think* survives through the 1940s[?], but only on the better men's medium-heavy weight work, but I might be off here.

[dw]

Erick,

You're correct. There is a posting (mine) that describes Al using a very lightweight insole. I saw him do it.

First, if memory serves, he didn't exactly feather the insole. He just hammered a dent into the edge of the insole and he didn't cut a channel either. He just scribed a line around the insole with a pencil (might have been all he had handy but you could use a scratch awl) a given distance (roughly a quarter inch) from the edge.

Then he just began holing the insole starting on the surface (flesh) right at the scribed line and emerging right in the center (the dent) of the edge of the insole.

The stitches remain on the surface of the insole with this method but this was a 6 iron insole as I recall and, wonder of wonders, no gemming. Which *I* thought was a big plus if nothing else.

[Sorry Al for stealing your thunder but I couldn't let your natural modesty leave this question unanswered. In any case all the credit is yours! ]


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

[das]

DeeDub,

Not a problem, I just hadn't gotten around to answering this one. Sorry.

I use Baker's oak-bark insole from the UK. I order 5-6 iron, but it comes through anywhere from 5-8 iron in the same shoulder. Sometimes, if you plop an insole in the water bucket to soak, before blocking, it plumps up another iron or three, so this thickness thing is all pretty situational. Then, some insole has some very loose flesh that's been pressed or rolled down. I always flesh that off with a sharp knife to get down to the solid fibers below.

All this said, let's say the insole ends up being +/-6 iron before cutting the feather and holdfast. I'd call that a "medium" weight. To me "light" would be maybe 3-4 iron, and 9-10 iron on up is "too heavy". Depending on the welt construction [historically we're doing 1700s under-cut insoles; square-cut insoles; regular welts like you guys do; folded welts made from a double-wide strip of 5-6 oz uppers, and even forepart "rands".] With each type, the insole edge is prepared differently for special reasons--but that's "history".

The one I did for DW, that he's remembering, I did just that way to show him [that way]--beating the feather bevel with the pane of the hammer to demonstrate that use of the hammer, instead of cutting it, and with no channel to show it can be done. I don't do this all the time, or even most of the time. Usually I cut a regular sloping feather along the edge. In from that I cut a very shallow vertical slice, pry it open, and with a very shallow angle, skive off the lip of this channel on the inboard side to create a lop-side "V" shape for recessing the sewing stitches. I'll take the pointed end of the long-stick, or something similar, and burnish the channel deeper sometimes, or to open it wider. Then I hole the holdfast [damp], which raises the rib even higher still. If needed I do beat the feather down flatter, further, with the hammer pane, especially around the toe of there a stiffener coming later, and then refresh the holes [mashed shut] with the awl. There's a whole menagerie of antique insole types from the 1700s to fool with, and we merely use whichever one we're making a repro of, so we have to be able to do them all. If shoe "X" had a flimsy 6oz. insole [usually the lightest we ever mess with], with the edge bent up at a right angle to create a holdfast, that's what we do. If it had an insole that was under-cut [shy of the last's feather line by +/- 1/4"], with no feather bevel, that's what we copy.

Oh, and I use the my thumbnail and index finger for most all this tracing-out. Pinch the finger and thumb together like a pair of dividers, using the side of the curled index finger as the guard on the edge, and the thumb nail to scribe out the lines--cheap tool, eh? Was it Devlin who talked about the Elder Hoby going around London and trimming the nails of his competition? "The Thumbnail School"? You aren't going to catch me using scratch awls or wing-dividers

[dw]

Al,

Thanks for that explanation. You know...sometimes you can be shown something, maybe even do it a time or two, and it's so new to you or so "deep" that you don't really appreciate the nuances immediately. My memory...always suspect...has you penciling in the channel line. But since I have used the forefinger and thumb divider technique most of my career, it makes sense that you would have done it that way. Reading your description filled in a lot of the details and brought some of the subtleties to the fore.

I have always sort of "enshrined" that memory of you holing the "way too light" insole as something of a rare feat. I have kept it in mind as an example of what can be done and to tell the truth it changed my mind about what, in fact was "way too light." Maybe never 6 iron for boots but 8-9 is certainly do-able for women's and pygmy's work.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

My pleasure. Glad it flowed--I was in a awful rush this AM.

Next time you're out to VA, let's sit out in the shop more, and I'll show you more "magic" from the remotest antiquity

I know you're making a whole 'nuther type of footwear than me, though some of our stuff is pretty stout too. My thinking on insole thickness is, in taking on a nice deep foot-bed/imprint from the foot for comfort, 6 iron's about right, without adding undo stiffness to the bottoms. A 6 iron insole, with maybe one or two layers of 5-6 oz. flabby leather for bottom-filling, then a 9 iron outsole, and it's pretty beefy. I've done some 9 iron-plus insoles, but I do this trick: I score a series of parallel slices side to side, maybe 1/4" apart--just "so" deep--from the joint-line forward to the toe. This way I get the deeper footbed/imprint without so much bottom-filling, without adding too much stiffness. You ever do that? It's only slicing in maybe 3/32-1/8"

[cmw]

Ed

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1145

Look here and you will see a pict. of what we are taliking about.

I decided that all the shoes/boots that I make for myself or away from work are going to gave the traditional insole. If I ever use a gemming on my shoes it will be sewn on after gluing. This is because of the repair experience I have. If this was done you could just figure on using a thin inner sole. I use one any way. There are other types of material for insoles that are used in the orth. branch but they don’t breath that much.

We have a dinner date so, I’ll stop here.

Have a nice one
CW

[cmw]

Ed
The link didn't work. Do a search for janne and gemming in the last 365 days. it should pop up.

CW

[erickgeer]

Al, DW,

Thank you for describing the "medium" weight insole.
I have lots of practicing to do before I can "get" the techniques down, I would love to see it being done. As far as I know, there's not much, if any, of this going on around Chicago.

Thanks,
Erick

[dw]

Al, [long]

Sometimes I think it's too bad we don't have more folks on the Forum who have extensive experience doing repair. I know most makers don't like it...some even consider it beneath their dignity. I've done repair for many years...and now I don't and I'm glad I don't, but glad I did. You see a lot when you repair...stuff you don't see, or really have any way to comprehend, when you just make. But it'll kind of give you an attitude about certain things, too. I don't do gemming (or hold with it) for instance--blame it on all those years of repair. I have come more and more to regard the inseam as the backbone of the boot/shoe--both in terms of it's central role and in terms of it's potential for being a source of problems. Blame it on all the cracked out inseams I've seen...and had to deal with. In the last several years I've switched from "traditional" angle cut channels to vertical cut channels, for that very reason. And I'm leery as all get out about using too thin an insole.

Of course I want the same thing as you do, Al--flexibility, durability and a good footbed. I don't pad the insole with several layers of lining between the insole and the outsole. You seem to be suggesting that those layer are critical for forming the footbed. ? I don't know... I only use one thin layer. So I guess I rely on the thickness of the insole to create a nice deep footbed. Of course, it probably takes longer to get there than with a thinner insole. But by the time you get two layers of 5-6 oz bottom filling added, it's gotta be thicker than my 10-11 iron insole plus my 3 ounce bottom filling.

I've never had any complaints about the flexibility of my insoles, even combined with an 11-12 iron outsole...not even from the head of the shoemaking faculty at a venerable, "historic theme park" in Virginia. Seriously, though...did you think the boots I made you were stiff? Hey, you can answer plainly...no one expects someone who's used to, and who uses, lighterweight insoles to think they'll feel the same. But to tell you the truth it gives me the willies just to think about scoring the insole. It's that repair experience again. I don't like cutting into the insole. That's, again, why I went to the shallow vertical channel rather than the deep angled channel. Any cut like that is potentially a problem...and when you've got customers who work hard in their footwear and sweat hard and then "put 'em up wet"...well, all it takes is one pair that you open up and see the insole has turned black and has cracked out everywhere it possibly can, and suddenly you're looking for alternatives.

I think tallowing the insoles, while labour intensive and not for those in a hurry, helps a great deal too. If nothing else in creates a reservoir of conditioning to offset the lack of care that most customer give the insides of their boots.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

Erick,

Just a wild thought...one of my predecessors here at CW from the 1960s, a chap named Phillip Hawk, occasional HCC member years ago, lives near Chicago someplace and I believe[?] he still makes some shoes. You might look him up.

[das]

DW,

I agree, it's good to see where, how, and why stuff fails. Having said that, we only repair things we've made here, and I feel it's an important part of the apprentices' training, especially, to repair the stuff they've made if it comes back, so they can see over time what they might be doing well, and what they might do better.

Doing general repairs, and seeing a whole variety of "failed" factory-made stuff might be a good thing, too, I can see that. It's all relative. I've got, and still wear hard, older boots and shoes from the 1940s and 50s, which are Gemmed Goodyear welted, and in fact when I was a teenager walking everywhere, I had one pair that lasted me 12 years, then were swapped off to a friend, who still wears them 23 years later! That pair of Gemmed boots has lasted 35 years. These weren't well-cared for dress boots either. So what I'm saying is, if done right Gemming can do fine. I've had hand-mades blow out in less time, so one is not an automatic ingredient for longevity if that's the only measure of goodness.

This black cracked insoles thing has more to do with foot chemistry, and the insole's tannage than the type of holdfast used, don't you think? I've seen domestic drum-tanned oak-extract and mimosa-extract insole turn black and crack. The Gem rib is what, fiber wrapped in cotton canvas? My feet don't do that to shoes, but my dad's did. In 14 years of using only Baker's, however, I've never had that happen with any customer. Anyway, if you don't like Gem, by all means don't use it. I've always thought to try it after Janne told us of his success with it by-hand, just to try something new for fun, but haven't had the chance yet. The thought I had was to take the insole, split it in two, position and cement the Gem rib on, then stitch it on the patcher with nylon. Afterwards, relaminate the top layer of the insole with Barge cement, fine-trim the edges, then pop it on the last. The idea of stitches holding the Gem rib showing [and wearing] on the insole surface bothered me I guess.

The angled "flap" channels on insoles you've abandoned I've only seen in western boots. One guy I knew who did that said it was intended to cover the inseam thread and protect it from the sander or welt-ripping knife when the repairmen got a little sloppy, because he wasn't using any bottom filling at all. The time or two I tried it, since the stitch is pulled-in hard in-line at the same angle as the cut--rather than against its side-wall--I felt it wanted to cut-through or continue cutting deeper into the leather. Especially around the toe where I use that extra "worm" thread to spiral around each stitch, which caused too much bulk so I could never get the channel closed over the stitches.

I guess if you're building a boot for Godzilla with pure acid for sweat, you couldn't over-do the insole, however, lighter insoles will stand the test of time and wear if made well.

All I think is critical for forming a good deep footbed is sufficient yielding material--either the insole, or the insole in combination with the bottom-filling. Best and deepest beds I've gotten have been with 4-5 iron insole, and +/-1/4" [before shaping] sheet cork bottom filler. Second best have been with 5-6 iron insole and one layer of that old-fashioned tarred felt filler they don't make anymore. Third best, which we're kind of stuck with for 18th c. historical accuracy, 5-6 iron insole, with +/- 1/4" [before shaping] flabby belly, 5-6 oz. leather scraps. In each case, the insole leather is firmer than the fill material, so it'll only go so far by itself. I think the "secret" is filling it underneath with a more compressible material. I've never noticed the bottom-filling increasing stiffness because of the aggregate thickness involved.

===============
"I've never had any complaints about the flexibility of my insoles, even combined with an 11-12 iron outsole...not even from the head of the shoemaking faculty at a venerable, "historic theme park" in Virginia. "
===============

"Theme park" indeed :P

No flexibility problems in those boots at all mate, but the outsoles aren't no 11-12 irons either :>)

The insoles, however, even with some serious wearing [we've re-bottomed once if you recall] on them, still only have 1/2 to a third of the footbed depth I get in my shoes. The impression I got was that you'd used firm bend leather for the insoles, instead of the more impressionable shoulder leather? Do you remember what you used? Since I've never seen the insides, I have no idea what sort of bottom-filling is in there either.

On scoring the insoles for added flexibility, try it on a pair for yourself, maybe for your dancing. Make the insoles out of your thickest, firmest bend leather, and don't make the cuts too deep, just deep enough so you can flex the insole in your hands and feel a difference. The idea would be to make 9-10 iron, too-firm bend insoles *feel* as flexible as 6 iron shoulder insoles--not bedroom slippers. If Godzilla wore them, sure they'd self destruct, but you're not Godzilla

Tallowing the insoles is a good thing. We do it here on 50% of our stuff. It hasn't made any difference I can see on longevity, but it feels nicer to sew. BTW, Dixie Gunworks sells what they call "Mutton Tallow", supposedly made from sheep, rather than the beef tallow J.R. & Sons, the trapper's baits and lure people sell. The Dixie GW tallow smells a little sour [rancid] to me, and seems softer and oilier than the other stuff. Maybe it was just the sample??????

[erickgeer]

Al,
I did a search on the web and got a listing in the SmorgasBoard, for a phillip Hawk that does : "Handmade reproductions and adaptations made with traditional tools and techniques, including boots, shoes, military accessories, sheaths, scabbards, horsetack and tableware.."

Would this be the person? I will try to check him out, he's on the other side of the lake, in Michigan though.

Probably as close as it gets now.

Thanks,
Erick

[dw]

Al,

All good points. A few observations by way of follow-up, if I may...

Personally, I don't see the point in gemming...unless it is simple expediency--and that may very well be a valid goal if you've a production quota to meet. I'll not argue that one...

But, as a bespoke maker, if you can hole a a six iron insole, why *wouldn't* you want/make a *solid* inseam...if you can? Why wouldn't you want to do everything in your power to minimize slippage and/or other problems...if you can? Gemming is just glued into place (unless stitched through the insole...with the concomitant stitching laying proud on the insole) it can and will slip, especially as the sole wears...and even more especially if the insole is not just right for the customer's foot print. It's another way, it's true, but one that, for me, takes a distant backseat to a channeled insole. That's just a personal opinion (like yours) and I offer it just by way of conversation and as another way of looking at things.

As far as thin insoles are concerned...there's that old repair syndrome again. I've seen thin insoles create such a deep footbed that the customer could no longer wear the shoes. Cork, and even leather insole linings, tend to bunch up, in my experience, when the insole is too thin. And even the best oak bark insole shoulder will stretch and distort in the right circumstances, especially if it's thin and subject to moisture. Call it "insole creep." I've seen it ...and more importantly, I've never been able to "cure" it, 100%, once it has "set in."

I may be totaly "whacko" but I was a Boy Scout...and my philosophy...making boots...in life...is "Be Prepared." Black, cracked, sometime almost crystalized, insoles may indeed be a question of body and leather chemistry. Maybe as much the former as the latter. But if so, you really have no way of looking at a customer and predicting whether his skin is so acid/alkaline that he'll rot out the insoles. So what to do? What to do? Use good techniques and good quality materials and you may head off the problem and, as a bonus, if the customer is not one of those who is going to "burn" the insole...hey! the boots aren't going to *suffer* for having used 9 iron Baker insole shoulders.

Having said all that, I have to echo your remark to the effect that we make very different types of footwear. I don't think it is beyond reason to say that the type of footwear we make determines, to a large extent, what kind of use/abuse and wear they will get. And consequently, what kind of problems will develop in the life of the shoe or boot. The Pope's slippers could be made with 3 ounce kip for an insole and the maker might never conceive of any problems using the same in any type of footwear. You and I could though...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

I'm not likely to ever convert to hand-Gemming instead of regular holdfasts, as I can probably do the latter faster and better anyway. And I feel they are the "best". I was merely intrigued by Janne's suggestion that this technique can be a viable alternative for certain reasons even done by-hand. Hey, I like to fiddle with stuff and want to see for myself.

=======
"Gemming is just glued into place (unless stitched through the insole...with the concomitant stitching laying proud on the insole) it can and will slip, especially as the sole wears..."
=======

This is why I envisioned splitting the insole, cementing, then stitching the Gem rib on, then cementing the grain layer back onto the insole to hide the stitches. Heck, I'll try anything once--alomst

==========
"especially if the insole is not just right for the customer's foot print."
==========

If that's the case, isn't our last-fitting/selecting, or other important thing the root problem? If the last's the correct shape for that person's foot, so will the insole be, and nothing can walk out of shape.

==========
"I've seen thin insoles create such a deep footbed that the customer could no longer wear the shoes."
==========

Huh? I can't imagine such a thing.

==========
"And even the best oak bark insole shoulder will stretch and distort in the right circumstances, especially if it's thin and subject to moisture."
==========

Again, I'd be suspicious of the last shape, or some other major factor if that's happening. If the shoe or boot is a dramatically different shape than the foot, of course the foot will distort it.

========
"But if so, you really have no way of looking at a customer and predicting whether his skin is so acid/alkaline that he'll rot out the insoles."
========

In the event they wear leather footwear, you can ask them if they tend to have problems with cracked insoles. If they're not too gross, you might even inspect the shoes they removed when they came for a fitting and check. It's safe to err on the side of caution of course, and I've nowhere suggested anything but pit-tanned oak-bark insole. The thickness...? Well we're making different stuff, however, 6 iron Baker's isn't going to "fail" differently on this chemical basis than 9 iron Baker's--it's the same leather. If you're satisfied with the results you get your way, that's great. All I'm saying is I'm having great results using 6 iron insoles, with more impressionable bottom-filling than you use, that's all.

I've used flanky 9 iron outsole bend in a pinch, too, and the only criticism I had, it was too brittle in the inseaming, wanted to break-out at each stitch; it was hard under foot, and never took on a deep enough foot-bed for my taste.

[dw]

Al,

While were on the subject--and I know I've asked you this before, but I don't remember the answer and besides maybe things have changed in the meantime--have you even put the flesh side of the insole to the last? Seems to me you'd get a better footbed that way.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

I've never tried it myself, thought I have seen German hiking, military, and heavy boots done this way. The explanation I got was, it reduced slipping on the slick insole [friction=blisters], as well as eliminated the cracked grain problem.

I have taken to scraping the grain off the insole with broken glass [or the Turbo Master 2000 @ home], to get a velvet nap on the grain. Have you tried that?

PS--Ain't it about time to archive some of this--it's taking forever to down-load

[tomo]

Hey DW, Al
I think the chemical make-up of a persons sweat has a lot to do with the leather crapping out.

As a saddler, I've repaired a LOT of horse gear from just about every disapline, and sometimes someone will bring in tack that has been on one horse only, and the smell is putrid. Yet those same people can bring in girths/cinchas or whatever from other animals and they have that nice sweet smell.

Also as an aside(?) I might add that the most vial thing I've EVER had to work on, are the gear bags and kickers that hockey players use. And that is just sweat. So if the fetid smell of sweat makes your nose pucker, imagine what it does to leather that's bathed in it 24/7.

More power to y'awl
T.

[das]

Tom,

Yessieree, I think that individual body-chemistry is the key. I haven't re-read the textbooks on this aspect, and how our trade dealt with this in the past, but that might be my next project if I ever get "spare" [what's that?] time.

As I said yesterday, pit-tanned, oak-bark insoling seems to be the most durable and impervious to body chemistry degradation according to the trade at large. It's the *only* leather insole material allowed/approved by the British National Health for all orthopedic work, and the choice of every bespoke maker I know in the UK. A whole lot better than quickie drum-tanned oak/mimosa extract insoling, as used in even the best factory-made stuff. Of course we're going by only one sub-class of customers/clients here--the ones with especially acidic, profusely destructive sweaty feet--and responding to their condition by engineering the insoles to "super strength". In other people's case, this may be over-kill.

Buffing the grain off seems to improve it even further, and the molten tallow dipping DW's talked about doesn't hurt either. If the long-lasting inseam in a welted boot or shoe is the "backbone" of the whole affair, then the insole itself has got to be the second most important consideration. Outsoles and heels come and go, and get replaced, but that insole has got to stand for the life of the boot or shoe.

I don't disagree with DW's idea that we're better safe than sorry taking risks with less than the best insole leather, and toughest inseam constructions we can manage, but it would be handy to be able to ID the "problem" feet before hand. Like so many other out-of-the-ordinary physiological conditions of the feet we may have to fit, this is another one well worth considering.

[dw]

Al,

So no real thoughts one way or the other regarding depth/quality of footbed with flesh-to-the-last?

I agree that Baker's insole shoulders are the best I've come across. As I mentioned the other day to a friend/fellow maker up in Portland (and a member of the Forum) if I could get it without the hassle of trying to bring it into the country every six months, I'd use it all the time. I know a lot of others would, too. Your comments about the leather being sweat resistant, etc., make me restless and dissatisfied with what I ordinarily use (I save the Baker for my "Best" boots). But, it would help us all immensely (and might very well yield other benefits too--I'll leave the mystery be for now) if you could document or just footnote those assertions. I don't doubt them, not for a second, but others might be more inclined give it a try--thus creating a demand--if they had something more tangible to go on.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC