Insole leather

[Tex Robin]

Gary,

I don't mean to abrupt here Gary but you are going to learn a lot more by doing than talking. This forum is not going to teach you experience.
We can tell you the basics but you are never going to be able to make a pair of boots with a slide rule or computer. It is called Bootmaking and it is not even in the dictionary....TR

[dw]

Gary,

Well, that's exactly why, in everything I do and teach, I try to rely on empirical methods. Methods that can yield the same results (more or less) no matter who applies them. Methods that are understandable no matter who's looking at them.

I'm like you, I don't want to rely on "feelings". At that point you might as well rely on amulets and potions...or smoke and mirrors. Having said that, there is a certain amount of experience that must be acquired to really apply any procedure with certainty and reliability. What's more, once that level of experience is reached, it tends to generate a "synergy" that ends up being greater than the sum of its parts. So in reality there is a certain amount of smoke and mirrors involved...or maybe it's just "art" (small "A" )... in everything we do. I just don't want to rely on it any more than I have to and I don't think that "feelings" can be taught. Not really.


With regard to weight on, as I said I know a lot of fellows that do it that way. And it works for them. It's counter-intuitive to me. The pedograph determines the insole...which is intended to be the weight bearing platform. To me it makes sense to create that platform to emulate the weight bearing surface of the foot when the weight is *on* the foot. But I measure up weight entirely off...and do the pedograph with the weight full on the foot and evenly distributed between them.

It works for me, it's reliable, it's repeatable, and it's teachable.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[gcunning]

I know your right Tex. It doesn't make me like it.
It's like teaching these kids to weld I can tell them. I can show them the book models. I can even demonstrate correctly to them. But they have to do it themselves and a certain amount of it is feel. I can walk by a station and hear when someone is welding incorrectly. But I learned it when I was YOUNG.
This stuff I'm older and want to be good RIGHT NOW!! I just get frustrated with the feel thing. I know it will come, but it sure would have been nice to learn this art when I was younger.

[Tex Robin]

Gary,
I was probably your age before I started to fit customer's lasts. My Father died taking that part with him and I had to learn it on my own.
I knew everything but that. Within 5 years I was doing pretty well at it. But you will always have that one out of a hundred that is pickey and you may be better off to give his money back and send him on his way..But that is up to you. I made one man three pair when I was just starting out.

But by working part time it will take you longer to learn.....TR

[cmw]

DW and Janne and Tex

I’ve been following the discussion about insoles and fitting with interest because of the look-a-like viking-shoes that i hope to start very soon. From what i’ve read , the diff. is whether or not one chooses to support a persons foot more or less. As I see it, that is the diff. between sitting in a chair or or standing to get an imprint. I have a slight varus right foot and as I understand, it would be best to have an imprint from a sitting pos. With the type of shoe I’ll be making it’s important that they fit snug. What are your thoughts?


once again a cold Texan
CW

[Tex Robin]

CW,
I don't know anything about the viking shoes you are talking about but I can tell you this. We could literally talk ourselves to death on this forum and never learn to make any type of footwear.
Here are the simple facts: You must make the last fit the foot and then you must make the boot or shoe to fit the last. These two statements tell it all. I know , it is the things in between that get the result. And I know there are some that will disagree and that is their opinion. And I realize there are many methods of achieving that task, but I simply do it by looking at the location points of the last and the measurements. I do not agree that the pedograph is a necessary tool for the Bootmaker. (Now in orthopedics yes, anything goes there)
The biggest problem I see on this forum is the tracking off in two many directions of the learning bootmaker. You can't follow more than one opinion and get there with the best results. And now the question? Which is right. That is for you to determine for yourself. I am not sure that I gave you the answer you wanted but this is just what came to my mind.. *Now*, I can see a long reply coming. and I will read it if it is not too long.......TR

[carlcorbeau]

Tex,

You seem to be a "learn by doing" kind of guy.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and expertise with us.

I, for one, tend to talk instead of doing (doing can be scary) (that dumb end of the learning curve again)

I'm going to boil all these opinions down and probably come up with an odd looking hat
Carl

[Tex Robin]

Carl,
Just get yourself a good hat and a long mustache and go for it.
I do as you say pretty well but I do have a definite method for my bootmaking. It is not by luck or imagination..TR

[cmw]

Tex
Thank you for the quick response
I see what you are talking about with regards to the possible confusion. The raeson I asked was that I’ll have an instructor alone in the school workshop on Monday. We talked about starting the process. I wanted to be ready when we begin. I’m hoping to get as much as possible out of the last few wks I’m there. I’ll think about what you wrote before I write something long and drawn out.

By the way normal army/treking style boots ( 1.5 cm sole) keep my feet warm. The long underwear was not a joke. Rain pants keep your legs dry when it gets reallllyy nasty. We’ll be in Stockholm all next wk-end. I’ll let you know if it is out of the normal.

Ya'll sleep well
CW

[dw]

Tex,

With all due respect, I don't believe that there's anything wrong with this forum...and there's the *real* heart of our disagreement. All the rest is trivial and superficial detail.

You learned to make boots by doing...at your father's side. But most of us--the greater percentage of people trying to learn this trade--don't have a father who is a boot maker. Don't even have a bootmaker to mentor them on an occasional basis, much less on an everyday basis. You learned by gut, by absorbing it from your dad, day after day, month after month, year after year. Virtually none of us have that luxury...or that handicap. At this point all we can bring to bear is our brains.

I think the greatest problem with the Trade...not the Forum--the Trade...is that not enough people take the time to articulate a technique or to talk about the why's and wherefores...in detail and at great length. That's one of the reasons boot and shoemakers are fewer and fewer each year. Absorption is one thing, understanding is quite another.

Experience is great. And the skill that long experience affords a person over time is invaluable. But...and I know you know this because I know you have kids...no mater how hard you try you cannot pass on your experiences, or even distill the lessons of your experiences, to other people. All that can ever be passed on is the empirical knowledge...the rules for doing. And if those rules don't make objective sense they tend to limit understanding, rather than foster it. Absorption satiates, understanding nurtures.

Practically speaking, if I had to choose between a lifetime of experience and a body of knowledge based on logic and hard data (book learning, if you want), I'd choose the data every time. But, having said that, the ideal situation--the one we all strive for (maybe)--is to bring our *experiences* to bear on hard *data*...rather than on supposition and feeling. I'd rather take a measurement from the foot and know that it was right...the first time...than take a measurement from the foot and have to guess how much to subtract from that number.

The *real* problem with the Trade (and I guess it *does* spill over to the Forum) is that there's not *enough* talking and not enough explaining...as if it somehow diminishes our skill or manhoods...the real danger is that having learned with the gut, you get full up and forget what it means to be hungry.

I am fully aware that in some quarters I am regarded as being arrogant. But arrogance is not about having, or being willing to express, an opinion. It's not about being firm or decisive or clear in what you stand for. That's just self confidence. Most of the folks who post on this forum have that to some degree.

Arrogance is not being willing to take the time to explain; or not being willing to admit you don't know; or not being able to laugh at yourself. Arrogance is not even wanting to hear the other guys opinion when it clashes with your own. But mostly it's thinking you're so much better than others that you can never be questioned. Arrogance is saying "let them eat cake." I don't think there's anyone who fits that description posting to this forum, I hope there's not. For myself, all I can say is that I'm still hungry...I'll never get enough.

PS. I was gonna post this over in "Rants..." but I know you were expecting it here...and I just couldn't disappoint you. Hope it's not too long.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,
I think you got the wrong impression of what I said and when I get through with my student today I will get back for another post tonight....TR

[dw]

Tex,

No worries...just so you know, I wasn't offended or being critical of you, personally. I was just "thinking out loud" on a thought process your remarks started in my feverish brain. Also, this being Veteran's Day, I don't have anything better to do...



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

You keep bringing up my learning from my Father at his side. Well, that is what I did to a point. But for the last 30 yrs My Father has been dead and I have learned things on my own. Even when my Father was alive I didn't always agree with him and had a mind of my own as I do here.

My point on the forum was my opinion and I stick with it. A beginner can't learn bootmaking by mixing different methods together or going several different directions as once. And that is what I said in my prior post. It was plain as day. Cris and Gary understood what I was saying. It wasn't hard to understand. I wasn't making any jab at the forum.

If I didn't like the forum I wouldn't be here, but my opinions will be my own and they all represent a lot of successful years of bootmaking and my method of fitting is not guesswork. I know just as many makers use my method as yours and very successfully. And that wasn't a jab at your methods as yours seemed to be of mine and my way of learning at my Father's side.

And it was veteran's day here too and I thank all veterans for serving this great country of ours, both those that have died and those that are living. I salute each and every one!......TR

[dw]

Tex,

In a remark made just before you posted this, I told you that I meant no personal criticism of you--that I was just "thinking out loud." For what ever reason, you chose to ignore my assurances.

Then you make this post...which only goes to show that you can (and often do) read whatever you want into other people's words. When was the last time I even mentioned your father (capital "F"?)? Maybe several years ago. Not regularly, not often, it's not an issue or big deal with me.

But pointing out that you learned at your father's side is not a criticism. It's a 'contrast,' true enough, but a more carefully reading of my remarks might reveal that many of us *envy* you. And it *is* different, very different, than what most of us face. If there is any criticism at all, it may be that you should make allowances for those folks who don't have your advantages.

Again, there is a level of defensiveness here that is all out of proportion to reality. Let's draw another contrast: What's to be made of your continuous references to "long-winded," "talk ourselves to death," "the problem with the forum," "you are annoying," and the suggestions that we are all 'wasting our time' or how can we get any boots made when we spend so much time talking? Those are all quotes or paraphrases of remarks that recur again and again...like the warp and weft of your postings. Should we read all these comments as attack? As criticisms? They certainly sound like criticisms to me. Especially in the aggregate.

Despite that, I take no offense and, for the most part, I have urged others to take no offense. It's like putting up with a cranky relative...once you get past the sour attitude, it's easy to respect and admire that person.

But bottom line is that if you will not accept the assurances of others that there is no criticism meant, it is unreasonable to expect that others will accept *your* assurances that there is no criticism in your remarks.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

Oh , I accepted your assurances of your intentions. I just need to let it be known exactly where I stand sometimes. I tend to be very plain spoken with very little jest in the meaning of my words. And when I say something mean it exacly the way I say it , mosty. And when someone else says something I take them literally also, with little skepticism. But I really took no offense and it may have been the long day with a new student that gave the impression of my feathers being ruffled .

I believe it is proper in English to capitolize the word "Father" and "Mother" when speaking of a specific person's parent . Someone can correct me if I am wrong, and anyone can be wrong you and I not being the exception.

So I will try to come in tonight after the second day and be on the lighter side.......TR

[dw]

Tex,

Sure, I understand...I understand about students and I understand about personalities.

Some days, and on some subjects, I'm serious to the point of almost being preachy, some days I'm puckish to the point of being silly.

I think at one point, with the Forum...barring some unfortunate history...you just have to take people at face value and *assume* good will until it is proven otherwise. And even then, the angels of our better nature would ask the meaning of a remark rather than automatically bristling.

But sure enough, I've had to change my way of relating to people and even reading or interpreting their remarks since we began here. [ If nothing else, Gary, that's one thing I've learned.] And you almost have to do that with every new voice that comes on.

So, no worries....

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,
Second day was better and so is my mood. We lasted in the boots and installed a Celastic Toe Box today. Will last in toes tomorrow, inseam , and peg soles. The student is from Romania and says he is going to put in a boot factory in Mexico. And I believe he could! Very sharp student.....TR

[gcunning]

A while back I was talking about a tool that I used to cut my insole. This is the one that I used and got carried away with.

2370.jpg

[gcunning]

Thanks to Jake for helping me crop the pics.

[dw]

Here's a quick question for some of the European shoemakers...I was told that some makers across the pond will often place the flesh side of an insole against the foot.

Does anyone posting here take that approach? Are there reasons for doing it this way in preference to putting the grainside of he insole against the foot? I'm very curious and would like to hear the pros and cons.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[cmw]

DW

I've only seen flesh side away from the foot, but I have seen those that were not scraped( Sraping helps to prevent them from curling.)

CW

[das]

DW,

I've seen the insoles placed flesh up in certain heavy, hand-made, hiking/utility boots [in Europe]. When I asked the explanation that I was given is that, 1) this avoids the grain cracking from sweaty feet, and 2) it puts the best and densest fiber layer on the side where the inseam is made, rather that the weaker flesh. I guess to make them stronger?

I'm curious too.

[cmw]

It's funny what you wrote about the hiking boots.

When I was even more of a beginner than I am now I figured the best way was to have the strength of the leather down. Another thing I thought was that it would create more of a moister barrier that way. I still wonder about it.

I asked my boss about it after my last posting. He said that it tends to add some strength to the toe spring if the flesh faces downward. This gives credit to the idea that one should scrape the surface to avoid too much curling.

CW

[tmattimore]

Its funny Larry Waller and I were talking about insoles last week. I was out of insole leather about a year ago and needed to make myself some work boots. I used some 12 oz hot stuffed harness leather flesh up (I sanded the grain so the glue would stick better) and they have held up under daily use remarkably well with no sock liner( I was to lazy to put them in)
Tmattimore

[shoestring]

Ouestion for the "Shoe Maker"if the booth maker(s) are using an 8 iron insole,what would be a preferrable weight for a men's dress shoe's insole?

Ed