Insole leather

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Re: Insole leather

#101 Post by das »

Mike, [thanks for jumpin' in DW],

Right, CW had bought from Baker's since the 1970s--long before my tenure, and we can't resell. There's never been any trouble ordering directly from them as far as I know. I've never ordered as few as 1 or 2 shoulders--usually more like 10-12. I think once I ordered 8??? Anyway, the stuff's shipped air freight in big nylon "burlap" bags.

NOTE: Baker's will buff the grain off if you ask, for extra $. I guess they pass the shoulders under a big sander a few times for that velvety nap "factory finish". But, since we use it for turnshoe soles as well as welted insoles, I opted for the un-buffed.

Baker's do a whole range of harness leathers too, in the same old pit-tanned oak bark pits, so it might be worth asking the potential US importer if he'd be interested in carrying their other products. He might make more profit than on just insoling for bootmakers.
relferink

Re: Insole leather

#102 Post by relferink »

It has been tempting to read the posts and not to get into it to much. I’m in the middle of moving into a fixer upper that we are trying to get it livable within the next couple of weeks and I have high pressure to get my shop set back up in the basement. I’m probably another 4 weeks away from opening up again and every day not being open is a day to many. I’m sure you all will understand.

As to my humble opinion on the discussion of hard leather or soft rubber there are a number of issues at play here.

Jake’s posted picture is called diabasole, it’s very commonly used for customers with arthritis and or diabetes. The materials are on top pink Plastazote and Poron or PPT on the bottom. (Same stuff, different brand names and patents) These are all synthetic materials. The advantage is that the PPT keeps it’s cushioning for a long time, it does not bottom out. I have been told that PPT was developed by NASA to cushion their computer equipment when they shoot it up into space. Hi-tech stuff that can be very helpful to protect feet at risk for breakdown and ulcers. The pink Plastazote on top is a dynamic molding material. What this means is that it will continue to adjust to small changes in the foot without creating pressure points. Again very useful for feet at risk. The material has a tendency to insulate and keep the feet hot. For arthritic patients this makes it more comfortable but for others it makes the feet sweat more. Undeniable the material feels nice and soft and as we get older the natural padding in the foot wears down This material forms a great substitute for the natural fat pad in the feet. To prevent some of the heat that this material causes to the feet you can buy the Poron or PPT by itself and glue some lining leather in top of it to have some of the effect of a learther insole and still the benefit of the cushioning.

Eric, as to conditioning you feet, it all depends what is causing your discomfort when you wear the “hard leather soles”. If it is pain under the ball of your foot it is likely a structural issue, your feet tend to change over time (that’s what they call getting older Image nothing you can do about it!) all you may need is a metatarsal pad to correct the bone structure and than it’s a matter of getting used to the firm soles. A number of other things could be going on but it is a little hard to pinpoint like this. If you want to email me privately. Just give me some time to get back to you.

Chris, good to hear from you again. I know I’ve been absent of the board but I’ve been keeping an eye on it. You are correct in asking why first. Knee, hip and back pain can definitely have an origin in the feet and can sometimes easily be corrected with an arch support or build up. On putting an insole in a boot like you mentioned I would suggest using a material like cork if you do not need the extreme cushioning because of diabetes or arthritis. Cork is more comfortable, cooler and you finish it up with a lining leather cover. Also easy to adjust the volume this way if needed.
You seem to really get into the orthopedic shoemaking. Glad to hear it. When you make shoes from work orders don’t be afraid to ask why and if you can see the customer when the shoes are delivered.

Now to the most controversial part. Leather insoles and no (or less) toxic sweat or rubber, softness and smelly feet. I believe that a cork insole is a great compromise. The reason feet sweat less in leather is in my opinion not so much the “breathing” of the leather as it is the tanning chemicals in the leather seeping out and “tanning” the skin of the foot. If you think of it, leather is nothing other than a preserved skin. As the leather gets moist through sweat or rain a very small amount of the chemicals used for tanning will seep out of the leather onto the skin in effect starting to preserve the skin. One of the effects is that the skin will not be able to sweat as much. Some products that work very well for sweaty feet (I forget the name, I have it packed away in a box somewhere) work on that principle. Before everyone jumps all over me I do believe that the capacity of leather to breath does help. Average feet sweat a shot glass worth in a day. I also believe that most of the moisture transfer away from the foot takes place by air circulation. Every step you take you foot moves inside the shoe and thus causes air flow that takes moist air away. This does obviously happen more in shoes than boots but it still happens.

The burning feeling that leather gives can usually be prevented when the grain is scraped of the insole or a split insole is used (for cemented construction. I would never use a split insole for inseaming) Some people are very sensitive to the burning and need an insulating layer other than leather. In my experience the cracking of the insole is also caused by the grain getting hard and bridle with wear, when the grain is scraped off or split insoles are used I have not seen the cracking (other than with very cheaply made shoes where the materials used are just not up to regular quality standards)

That’s all the time I have for not. Sorry for the length of the post but I just have to get this of my chest.

As for the Baker insoles, I’ve never worked with them. I love Rendenbach but use domestic for my cemented construction and I’m experimenting with a non woven nylon type for reasons of weight and flexibility. I would love to try a Baker shoulder just to see what all the “fuss” is about. Image

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Re: Insole leather

#103 Post by cmw »

Robert

It’s good to see that you are busy. Sorry that you can’t get down to the business part of things just yet.

It was good to read what you wrote. I didn’t want to write to much now that I am an apprentice once again and this is not quite my field yet.

We use all the things that you mentioned/wrote. It’s good to hear what the actual reason for ppt is. We use it on allot of cork. I wish I could have some more customer contact or at least see one. We are upstairs in the work shop away from the store. I’m starting to fit in at work now it has taken 3 months though. They don’t know what to do with a cobbler that wants to learn everything in the branch. They think i wasted 3 yrs. It’s a challenge to make some of the shoes look as much alike as possible. you know how bad it can get.

Just to get back to the subject at hand, it can be a plus to use an insert sole made of fabric to reduce the friction/heat thereby helping the comfort. Sometimes we turned( last job/master) the veg tan rough upwards to help.

Gotta go, the boy calls and there are chores blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
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Re: Insole leather

#104 Post by jake »

Rob,

Personally, I don't mind long posts, especially when they are as interesting and informative as yours was.

We appreciate your input! Good Luck with getting your shop back in order. Take care!
denise_lomus

Re: Insole leather

#105 Post by denise_lomus »

Hello all. Although I have been keeping checking in since last August, this is my first posting here. You have all inspired me to finally make shoemaking a career, not just a fanciful hobby. Thanks for sharing all your valuable information.

In response to the May 9 query, I am interested in Baker's leather. I purchased a bend about 3 years ago with 4/5 iron shoulder and 2/3 iron toe puff for ladies shoes and was very pleased with it. So please count me in.

All the best, Denise
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Re: Insole leather

#106 Post by dw »

Denise,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy. Don't be a stranger now, hear?

I should make this clear....I am not handling the Baker deal. It is not a Buyer's Consortium. In fact, except as a means of communication, the HCC and the Crispin Colloquy are not associated with this deal. These posts should be seen more in the nature of a poll than an order. Those that do eventually order, may expect to pay some small surcharge for S&H, etc..

That said, the inquiries have been made of Baker (price, minimum quantities, shipping arrangements, etc.) and if everything is in order, there will probably be a domestic source for Baker insole sometime in the not too distant future. Hooray!!

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Re: Insole leather

#107 Post by shoestring »

relferink

Re: Insole leather

#108 Post by relferink »

It's been 12 to 15 years since I had the pleasure of visiting the Rendenbach Leather works in Trier Germany. It is quite the operation I tell you. Good old fashioned craftsmanship but also in compliance with all the modern safety and environmental regulations. I met with Mr. Hanns Rendenbach and his lovely wife and was given the grand tour of the place followed by some German hospitality with bratwurst and beer. They know how to entertain their guests!
Seeing (and smelling Image) the place convinced me their is no second to their products. I know some of you don't like the branding on the soles and I agree, you won't catch me wearing a Nike shirt advertising for them but on quality products I leave the brand marking like on my Saab!Image Just wouldn't look right with a hole in the hood. If you buy the leather by the hide and not by the sole you don't have to put up with the branding.

The Rendenbach web site is very well designed and looks beautiful. Ed, thank you for pointing the side out to us.

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on May 18, 2004)
shoestring

Re: Insole leather

#109 Post by shoestring »

To all,


Frankford Leather
1820 Byberry Road
Bensalem, PA 19020


Phone: 215-244-0400
sales@frankfordleather.com
This is a company that carries the Rendenbach leather in the USA.
erickgeer

Re: Insole leather

#110 Post by erickgeer »

I was wondering if there was success in importing the Bakers Insole Leather, or if it is still pending?

Erick
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Re: Insole leather

#111 Post by jake »

Al,

With the sloping feather, or beveled feather, at what point would you like to see your awl holes come out on the feather? Along the blue or red line? Thanks in advance!
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Re: Insole leather

#112 Post by das »

Jake,

Nice pix. In answer to your question though, "it all depends..." Image

Actually, one line looks too far out, the other too far in. I calculate/estimate the width "D" of the feather itself [the sloping, beveled bit] based on: A+B+C=D

A The thickness of the welt leather where the sewing stitch passes through it

B The aggregate thickness of the upper [lining, whatever inserted stiffeners/side-linings/etc.]

C The distance in from the edge of the finished welt that I want my sole-stitching to run

Because these variables change as you go around the insole, the feather width must vary as well. Mine end up the widest on both sides of the waist , and right around the toe, to account for the added bulk of the toe-stiffener/lining/case/box/puff. My feathers are narrowest from the joints forward to where the toe-stiffener/lining/case/box/puff begins. IOW, to maintain a constant width in the appearance in the finished welt, with an even "reveal", the feather has to move in and out to compensate for the welt, plus variations in upper thickness/bulk. Otherwise your sole-stitching, kept equidistant from the edge, will wander too close to the upper in places, and risk cutting through the sewing stitches underneath.

It has been common to order/make hand-sewn boots & shoes with either a "narrow", "middling", or "wide" welt; that is with the sole-stitching hidden under the upper @ the featherline of the last, as in the narrow waists on West End work; "middling": show the welt-stitching just beyond the upper @ the feather-line, or for strong work, make the welt "wide" to create a projecting, protective, lip around the upper. With hand-sewn work all of this is a control variable or decision. When machine welting, or at least machine sole-stitching, you are restricted by the limitations of the machine's reach. You can get further under there by hand with an awl, than with a curve needle stitcher. Like "inside cone" lasts lost some of their medial bulges, because it got too hard to cram the welt under the foot on the sole-stitcher without buggering-up the upper, too, welt widths are limited by the machine's capabilities.

Now, with the feather out of the way, the "hold-fast" [the ridge, wall, or lump of insole leather created between the awl's entry and exit hole], the one in your photo looks too wide and too deep. I *try*, and if lucky create a holdfast that's equal to, but no greater than the feather [A+B+D]. I was taught that the strength of such seams, joining dissimilar materials, is in its balance or evenness--the material/bulk on one side being more or less equal to the material/bulk on the other. Let me illustrate this balance by this analogy: if you were stitching a piece of 5 oz. leather to a piece of 10 oz. leather, the piece of 5 oz. would tend to curl, or ply when flexed. It would be the "weak" half of the seam. The piece of 10 oz. would resist flexing, and make the thinner piece do all the work, fatigue, and eventually give out. Or, like in your cowboy boots, in the side-seam, it's all pretty even on both sides until you get down there where the edge of the counter is taken in. Sometimes you guys add a strip of extra leather to the front of the leg there, to "balance" the thickness of the counter, so the seam won't tend to roll over.

We've all gone on and on about how the inseam is the "backbone" of the boot or shoe, and how important it is to focus on making a good firm inseam, etc. My rule of thumb is the feather ought to be A+B+C=D, and in holing it with the awl, those proportions should be respected, and followed if possible. If the holdfast is too wide, the welt and upper does all the flexing and fatigues. If the holdfast is too narrow or too wimpy, it gives out first. Balance is the key. The holdfast is also governed by the insole leather and how it holes, how it compressed with each stitch drawn-in tight, etc. Some leather is so flanky that it cuts through easily if the holdfast is too narrow or the holes too shallow. But, make it too wide, or go too deep, and the inseam will be out of "balance". The insole has to be a "cooperative, complimentary partner" in the inseam, and the holdfast needs to work with, rather than resist against flexing in the welt/upper part of the union Image

So, there are two variables here: feather width *and* holdfast width. Controlling one without the other, or looking at one instead of both as the solution, is not seeing the whole picture IMO. Feather and holdfast work in unison to balance the bulk in the inseam, and the feather keeps the welt evenly revealed, though the bulk of the materials in the seam vary. It also keeps your sole-stitching safely away from cutting into the sewing stitches, and that beveled slope of insole acts like a graduated spring of sorts, to keep the upper from plying off short, or abruptly, kinda like leaf springs in a truck--the heavier the load, the more spring resistance there is. That's why I prefer the sloping feather to the stair-step "L" cut kind that's only one thickness.

Sorry to waffle on, it must be too much tea this AM.
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Re: Insole leather

#113 Post by dw »

All,

Has anyone, or is anyone, used/using skirting leather for insoles? I got a look at some Hermann Oak today and I have to say I'm tempted...especially with the source I've been using going belly up.

I got some in a 15 ounce (could be a bit lighter) but I was impressed by the softness yet firmness if you know what I mean. I tried a bit of it...channeling and stitching as if I were inseaming...and it looked as good maybe better than a lot of the short fibered soling /insoling that I have used. Looks like it would make a good footbed, too.

Anyone...thoughts? experiences?

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Re: Insole leather

#114 Post by das »

DW,

I tried saddle skirting for insoles back in the '70s, and found it worked alright (just). Knowing what I know now, I might be tempted to try it again, but with the caveat that it ought to be "cased" well, then stretched hard in all directions, and blocked to the bottom of the last first (tacked all the way around the edge, and allowed to dry completely as Golding shows). I might even think of beating it out a little bit to harden and compress it. The only problem I had with it then was that it was not dimensionally stable--it "walked out of shape". I'd buff the grain off, and certainly give it a tallow rub-down just in case.

Does Muir & McDonald, up your way, do the weights you need? Their natural pit-tanning, even though it's Douglas Fir bark rather than oak, sounds tempting. And pit/bark-tanned will always sew better by hand, the way we cut and form the holdfast. Drum-tanned, "quickie" tan leather, is just too apt to cut-through, rip, or crack.
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Re: Insole leather

#115 Post by dw »

Al,

Thanks for the quick response. When I talked to the Hermann Oak people they told me it was oak tanned, with real oak tannins used.

My fear was that it might walk out of shape or get such a deep footbed...and one that was not stable...that it might become uncomfortable after some usage--especially with a "wet" foot. But I'm with you I figured that if I blocked it good and let it dry well, it might be suitable.

But tell me, what's the difference between an oak tanned skirting and leather that might have been used for insole 100 years ago?

What's the difference between a oak tanned skirting and a soling leather as produced by someone like WestTan...aside from the rolling I mean. What do they do different?

Muir and McDonald...used to be hemlock as far as I know (and I knew the owner). Now, since the next generation has taken it over, they've begun to use South American extracts. Like quebacho. I don't know how that would work for insole. Originally, it was softer than the Hermann Oak, however.

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Re: Insole leather

#116 Post by paul »

DW,

What a great question! I don't have much to offer in the conversation, but I've wanted to ask that very questions, so I won't let that hold me back!

I've made a few pair, when the choice seemed appropriate for the customer, out of 12-13 oz. HO skirting. It certainly holds up to the process, I'll say that.

My own first pair of custom boots were Stewart's from Tucson, 25 years ago. And I've had them broke down several times over the years for full soles and such. But the last time I thought I'd take them apart further, and look at redesigning them some, just to play around. Well, the insoles must have been skirting, I presume, just because there is such a deep foot bed and they are so flexible. The fence and holdfast were still sturdy and I didn't think they were walked out at all. But then I don't wear 'em too hard. It was kind of a pull on Moccasin, with a 8/8 heel and I put a Vibram 269 Westerner sole on them. Made them like Apache mocs to me. They were Rough Out Water Buffalo, stove pipe tops, with fringe. Loved 'em. So...

Anyway, When I've worked with skirting for insoles, I have blocked them well and let them dry thouroughly. Maybe there's alot of shrink, but then I don't have alot to compare it to, since I'm still pretty green makin'.

That's 2 cents worth, at least. I'm looking forward to continued posts on this subject.

Thanks again for opening the ball.

PK
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Re: Insole leather

#117 Post by bultsad »

All,
Unless Hermann Oak has changed in the last few years, they also are using quebacho. I toured the factory about 3 years ago and I was told that the oak tannins were not being used. Their hides are pit tanned for 6 weeks. The hides are also rolled several (alot) times in the finishing and I believe that is what gives Hermann Oak the firmness for which they are famous. If you have ever cut a saddle from their leather you know what I am talking about. That said I have used the leather for insoles occasionally and it works fine. No streching or deformed results. Of course it depends on where you are cutting the insoles. You will use the back and butt. If you try the shoulder or belly you are going to stretch. That alone may be the difference as there seems to be a lot of makers that use shoulders, but the way that HO is produced the shoulders are to hollow for good insole leather. They make great buildups though. From a cost standpoint, you can buy "D" grade extra heavies from almost any of the independent suppliers that handle HO. These are excellent for small pieces such as insoles and buildups, since they usually have a blemish or three.
Jim
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Re: Insole leather

#118 Post by dw »

Jim,

Thank you. That's great information. I talked to Judith MacMorran several times, including just today. She told me that Hermann Oak was based on oak bark and acorn hulls with other extracts added. I mentioned quebacho to her but she was unclear and worried about giving away proprietary information.

I think that you are right, they will make fine insoles. I'm glad to hear your experience to back that opinion up, however. I guess...if my trial insoles turn out alright, I'll switch. I like the looks of it. I like the ability to hold a stitch and I like the (relative) ease of holing. Some of that Westan...as good as it usually was...was a bear to hole.

Ms. MacMorran told me that if I wanted to buy a couple of sides at a time I could...provided I understood that there would be a $.50 surcharge per sq. ft. I guess you might pay that from a third party, anyway. I guess I'll order direct.

Thanks again for your input. It helped.

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Re: Insole leather

#119 Post by das »

DW,

Dunno 'bout Hermann Oak, the saddle skirting I'd tried year's ago was...*gulp* dare I say... from Tandy.

In another thread M. Volken mentioned leathers high/low on polywoggles(?), or some such. It's my understanding that pit (slow) tanned leathers are higher in these polywoggles, and the drum (quick) tanned leathers are lower. The working result is that the leather high in polywoggles will channel, whip-stitch, and hold hand-stitches at various angles better--it doesn't come up short or brittle like the drum-tanned stuff.

========
"But tell me, what's the difference between an oak tanned skirting and leather that might have been used for insole 100 years ago?"
========

Jeez man, I don't know. The animals have changed (hormone-fed, fat critters today), the tanning has changed some. Don't the dead guys talk about choosing good insole in Golding, et al? Shoulder and some belly is all I recollect as been touted for insoles, and oak-bark pit-tanned was better than any other.

Hemlock huh? The 19thc dead guys usually agreed that sucked. When I bought some leather from Muir & MacDonald, they said it was Douglas Fir bark. Go figure.

The acorn caps Hermann mentioned are "valona"--the stuff Rendenbach uses. Valona-tanned leather is harder and flintier than oak-bark tanned, is all I've read. And the Rendenbach is hard, hard, hard.

With the 5-6 iron Baker's I use, I wet it, put a tack in the center waist, pull the insole hard off the toe to stretch it, tack it; then do the same off the heel. Then I go around pulling it out past the feather-line of the last, and tack it all around and let it dry for a day or two. This gets rid of any tendency to spread or walk out of shape. And, if you do it right, it doesn't shrink back either, but you have to let it get bone dry or it'll shrink.
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Re: Insole leather

#120 Post by dw »

Al,

I may be mistaken about Muir and McDonald...who knows? But I have a hard time believing that any softwood would have enough tannins to be usable. No biggie. I was always a reddish leather and pretty nice but never held the tooling like some of the other skirting.

I kind of wondered if we could go back 300 years give or take a half century either way, whether what we call saddle skirting would have been nearly indistinguishable from what shoe makers were using for sole leather. For that matter what was the difference in the way saddle leathers and shoe leathers were tanned in Colonial Williamsburg?

I think I remember M. talking about pyrogol tannins versus cachacol tannins...(how badly did I mangle those words much less the concept?) I wonder where quebacho fits in that scheme of things? M.?

Since a great deal of the contemporary soling is tanned with quebacho--at least the Argentine and probably the Italian (not to mention what Westan was using)it doesn't strike me as too far out of line to think of saddle skirting as a viable alternative.

Now you know that I use a heavier insole than you would even contemplate..even in your worst nightmares. Partly that's the way I was taught and partly it's because I believe that boots are fundamentally meant to be used hard and put up wet. I've seen a lot of boot in which the insole has shrunk in wear. May not be a big deal but I'm not looking for that effect.I any case, I don't anticipate any problem with the inseam with this Hermann Oak. I thought it performed as well in a test piece as the Baker did in a test piece I did years ago. Of course I didn't do any kind of authoritative testing just channeled and stitched a section at about 4-5 to the inch--pulling hard as I could. Both the holing and the channeling gave me great hope. Now if it will resist stretching/shrinking and resist "scrunching" up under the toes and metatarsal arch, I think it will answer.

How it will perform in a six iron (what's that in ounces?), I don't know, but I shudder to contemplate it even in my worst nightmares. Image

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Re: Insole leather

#121 Post by das »

DW,

I dunno about M&M either--they never wrote back the last time I contacted them, and I was kinda wondering if they'd just gone quietly out of business or something. If they indeed use hemlock, that's quite traditional for 19thc US sole leathers, but it was always considered a peg below oak bark.

If we went back 300 years, to 1705, as far as I know, Virginia tanners were all using (local) oak bark, and of course pit-tanning. Cattle would have been "free range", and Red Devon were the popular breed. They were good for food, as well as work animals, so lean by modern standards. The hides would be smaller than current, denser fibers, and probably not running as thick. Much of the leather used here historically was imported from England anyway, and so oak tanned too. As you know the fibers per centimeter in an animal's skin are a given, but as they age and the skin thickens or spreads, the fibers likewise spread out or get "loose" and flanky. Look at the cut edge of a whole grain calfskin, versus the same thickness of a modern "top grain split" cowhide--way denser fibers. With this increased density, the leathers were stronger in tensile strength relative to their thickness. In fact, if I had to average out the typical thickness of 18thc. shoe leathers, the insoles might run 4 iron., the outsole 5 to maybe 7/8 iron, even thinner than I use. BTW, I have never examined an 18thc. saddle, or its skirting for comparison--maybe Jim Kladder can speak to this?

It seems over time shoe leather has gotten thicker and thicker, just to get the same performance, which I think is due to the fiber density issue. A fun place to start might be seeing if 'US Tanning to 1850', the 1960s monograph (my copy is effectively hiding on the shelf somewhere) sheds any light. There were increasing experiments with alternatives to oak bark in the US and UK starting right around 1790-1800, which might tell us something about these other tannins too.

What did you think of the Rendenbach (valona) insole shoulders Michael A. was peddling a couple of years ago? I've got a boot on the last at the moment with a pair of those inside, and so far they've behaved quite nicely. We'll see what they do in wear Image
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Re: Insole leather

#122 Post by dw »

Al,

Thanks for the insights and information. If you get a chance to talk to Jim...I'd be interested in what he has to say. I've always been interested in this...even today I wonder what the difference is, besides rolling, between skirting and soling. And historically, the answer could yield some clues as to what's next for contemporary bootmakers in a world where resources are disappearing fast.

That's always seemed to me to be the key recommendation for preserving...and revering...the old literature--someday or sometime we are going to be faced with either reinventing ourselves or going extinct. It might not be all at once but it's already happening. Leathers, tools, cements, even such mundane things as tacks just don't have enough currency to keep the makers of same in business. If manufacturers can no longer see a profit in making celluloid cement...as a an example--and celluloid and celastic are nearly synonymous...maybe shoe and bootmakers will have to re-invent the requisite techniques for leather toe boxes. Image

Re: Rendenbach insoles...I got such a small piece--just as a sample--that I was never able to make insoles with it. I thought it was...sniff...a bit thin (8 iron?) for my purposes. I don't even know if it's still available. At one time, I had hoped a fairly well placed supplier of orthopedic supplies in Wisconsin might be able to make a deal with Rendenbach to bring in outsoles with no brand (perhaps expanding from there to insoling). But despite the best efforts of the Wisconsin people, the Rendenbach people would never deliver on their promises and eventually my hoped-for-supplier gave up. [heavy sigh]

I am beginning to think that the Guild ought to appoint a secret "brotherhood" of devoted... and monastic...guardians to protect the soon-to-be "lost" knowledge of the ancient mages of shoemaking. In some not-hard-to-imagine, not-too-remote, future I can see people looking back into history and scoffing at the implausibility of people actually making shoes and boots by hand. "The Art and the Mysterie" or the "Archana of St. Crispin." Candle-lit barrows and dusty CD's, parchment-like pdf's sandwiched between slabs of leatherboard. We'd probably need a half dozen black robes, though....and where do you get those in this day and age??!! Image

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Re: Insole leather

#123 Post by das »

DW,

I too lament our situation. Used to be most of my "spare" (what's that?) time was doing research on shoes--these days it's huntin' new sources to replace ones that just went out of business.

BTW, have turned up a great supplier of black waxed calf in the UK 1/2005: http://www.dickensbrothers.co.uk/

They use 100 veg-tanned kips! Yes, kips, not split cowhide. The black finish is okay, and needs to be sized, but seeing as you just can't find this since Kellett went out, this stuff is about "it". Let's buy, buy, buy, and keep these fellers in business. They also do a russet kip, no blacking, curried or dry.

I'm thinking on heavier hides, like your insole needs, have you tried Wickett & Craig?

Johnson & Murphy, Allen Edmonds, and a handful of other US manufacturers of top-quality men's Goodyear welted footwear are still using veg insole. Any idea where they're getting it? Domestically or off-shore?
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Re: Insole leather

#124 Post by roy_najecki »

Al,
Have you gotten any of the Dickens Brothers waxed calf? If you find it on a par with Kellet I would like to join in a group buy, or help organize a group buy if there is enough interest.
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Re: Insole leather

#125 Post by dkc »

Muir & McDonald Company (TANNERS) is alive and well in Dallas Oregon 505 SW Levens, Dallas OR 97338-1848
Phone #: 503-623-2428
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