Insole leather

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Insole leather

#176 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Chris, what are RB counters and insoles?

No, I don't have a press.

Jenny
ttex

Re: Insole leather

#177 Post by ttex »

Jenny

Sorry about that, I'm guilty of taking things for granted sometimes.

Alot of people use Rendenbach soles, etc over here. Their products are oak-bark tanned. The largeste part of the tanning materials are funny looking "pine cone looking thing. " If memory serves me right there are 4 or 5 different barks and pine cone things. Most products are tanned for 9 months or more.

The good thing about RB is that the tanning particles compress with pressure which closes and hardens the leather. The sole burns easily when grinding on the finisher if the belts are not sharp/fresh, but becomes stronger/water tight with use.

I wrote something about beating the counter after pinning. The same compression effect happens when the counter is beaten carefully into form. This is importatant with a wooden or a plastic heel. If you don't do this the heel will not flow into the the counter and the rest of the shoe. We make the heel when we cut the insole. in general you will develope an eye for the shapes and forms of the last/shoe, shaping the counter helps to keep yourself happy with the finished product.

Now to the subject name. The insole are tanned the same way. They are thinner than the ones DW uses. Thery are ca. 2.5-3 mm thick for ladies shoes. A thick insole of this type would be to stiff for a ladies shoe and we use gemmen and and/or peg. Any hoo, once you become used to cutting the insole, not grinding on the finisher you can feel the difference right away if you use another material/leather.

I hope this is not info overload. My son is waiting for my homemade apple-pancakes, so I'll stop here.

One cup of coffee under my belt
CW
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Re: Insole leather

#178 Post by jake »

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Re: Insole leather

#179 Post by jake »

It's too big gang....Sorry! I moved it to this location because that's where the discussion was.

I'll have to cut it down.
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Re: Insole leather

#180 Post by admin »

Jake,

I just got off the phone with support at the web host...10 mb seems to be the max that can be uploaded with the built-in forum upload utility.

Anything larger than that must be sent to me where I will have to host it on my server and provide a link here. It is also possible...perhap...well, never mind for now I will have to do some more research.

Also, for search purposes it would be good if, separate from the "attach" command, a description of the video was included as well as the format--something like "I am attaching a video--hammer-jacking.wmv". This will allow people to search the forum for "hammer-jacking.wmv" or even just "*.wmv". The latter search would produce a list of videos provided all posts including them were decribed as I just outlined.

This is all new and full of hope as well as quirks, so please be patient.

Emmett
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Re: Insole leather

#181 Post by jake »

Emmett,

Thanks for the info. Wish it could be larger, but it'll make everyone precise and to the point.

Patience? I've got the patience of a oyster!

We appreciate all your hard work, but I am a little jealous of your salary!
firefly

Re: Insole leather

#182 Post by firefly »

Hey Guys,

This may be a short term solution to a longer term problem, but... could we not zip the files using a self-extracting zip file. With about an 80% compression rate you should be able to load a pretty good size file (about 50mb if my math is right).

I just like seeing the pretty pictures so I thought might try to help.

I don't know much about computers. I'm just throwing something out there. But I do know about oysters, Jake, and they're great with cocktail sauce and beer!!

Thanks,

Mark
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Re: Insole leather

#183 Post by jake »

Thought I would try to continue with the hammer-jacking display with a pic and some discussion, followed by a short video demonstrating the hammer-jacking technique.

The process begins with dry lifts being soaked in clear water for approximately 5-10 minutes. You'll know when to pull them out when bubbles stop coming to the surface of the water and the lifts have all sunk to the bottom of the plastic pail.

Pull them and lay them on the bench for a few minutes to let the water evaporate from the surface of the lifts. Then place them all in a towel, saddle blanket, or newspaper to mull, or case overnight. I usually start the process late one afternoon with the idea of hammer-jacking 24-72 hours later. The lifts will vary in colour during the drying stage due to the area where they were cut from the bend/hide. Loose fibered lifts will be darker than denser fibered lifts.

Here's a dry lift on the left and a lift which has been taken out of the saddle blanket first thing one morning after casing overnight. Of course, it's still too wet to begin the hammer-jacking process. I will leave them out on the bench all day, checking on them periodically. At the end of the day, I usually wrap them up in the saddle blanket for the night. The next morning, the process starts all over again. Depending on the humidity and firmness of the leather lifts, I'm usually able to start hammer-jacking late afternoon on the second day. As D.W. has stated, you'll know they're right when the colour of the lift is basically back to the colour of a dry lift, but it still feels cool to the touch. Place the lift against your cheek. Experience will tell you after some time.
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Re: Insole leather

#184 Post by jake »

I cut it down considerably. Hope it works.
I am attaching a video--hammer-jacking.wmv
Hammering-jacking__2-4178.wmv*msmedia.gif*video/x-ms-wmv*11712.3*hammerjacking*Hammering%2djacking+%232%2ewmv
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Re: Insole leather

#185 Post by jake »

Hey Mark,

Sounds like a good idea, but we have to be careful with "executable" files. Personally, I'm a little afraid of that idea, but we'll check with Emmett.
tomo

Re: Insole leather

#186 Post by tomo »

WOOHOO Jake,
That's coming across loud and clear.
Way more clear than words, less of course the words are the ones that issue forth when ya smack ya fingers with the hammerImage

We call those hammers club hammers here, and I seem to remember there's one in the tool box that might just work...

Thanks jake

More power to y'awl
T.
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Re: Insole leather

#187 Post by admin »

Jake,

Just viewed the video...man, I wanted some popcorn--and not just any popcorn, either made me want some Orville Redenbach!!

Good on you, mate! I don't know how it could have been clearer or better done.

The only thing I might add is that the lift never attains full hardness till it has finished drying. But when it does, and if it's anything better than puure belly, it'll be so hard that you'll have trouble cutting it with anything less than a 5-in-1 or a hacksaw...and I do know how to sharpen a knife.

Golly, this video stuff is good ain't it? I have never regretted honing my verbal or writing skills to the point that I could describe a technique well enough for others to imagine it, but dern me if I'm not reduced to grunts and ground pounding by all this!

Thanks for posting this video, Jake.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Insole leather

#188 Post by jake »

Hey Tom,

We finally did it Partner! Glad you enjoyed it. By the way, I've hit my darn finger before doing this, and, well.....we better not say. This is a family forum. I hope it helps in some small way.

Dee-Dubb,

Well Thanks Ol'Buddy! Glad you put in the comment on "final" drying. Right you "R"! This is what the forum is all about....group effort. Yeah, the video depicts so much more than words can describe. All though, you are about as good as they come describing a technique. If someone hasn't try before, they need to, because it's a humbling experience. It's pretty tough explaining your ideas.

Thanks for the kind words fellers. It's my bedtime! Take care!
shoestring

Re: Insole leather

#189 Post by shoestring »

Jake,
This one is a sure Hollywood show.It was very nicely done a feller can get spoiled with lessons like this,popcorn is needed.Keep up the good work " Boot Maker / Movie Producer........... " .


Ed
ttex

Re: Insole leather

#190 Post by ttex »

Jake

That was cool. After the trafic I went through to pick up my boy, I needed that. How much of the thickness do you think you took from the untouched lift?

CW
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Re: Insole leather

#191 Post by jake »

Ed,

Mucho-Gracious! It was fun doing, but I think I had better keep my daytime job. I appreciate the kind words.

Chris,

It all depends on the lift. I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but it's the truth. A lift cut from the butt and close to the backbone is not going to compress near as much as one from the neck or belley area. After all the lifts are hammer-jacked (and I always do more than I need to stack a pair of heels), I'll choose two lifts the same thickness to stack on each boot. That way, with each lift the heels SHOULD be the same height.
paul_k

Re: Insole leather

#192 Post by paul_k »

Jake,

I wanted to join the appreciative audience with a word of thanks for the video lesson. This is another of those operations I've never seen another boot or shoe makers hands do.

Your comment about being able to bend a crowbar in a sand pit made me chuckle.

Thanks,
PK
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Re: Insole leather

#193 Post by jake »

Hey Paul,

Thanks! Hopefully Emmett can fix things so everyone can share some more of those "never seen before" videos. Pretty darn cool, huh?
Yeah, I sure do miss my Dad. There's not a day goes by, I don't stop and reminisce. He was a "dandy"! Wish I had listened more. He was a fountain of knowledge.
paul_k

Re: Insole leather

#194 Post by paul_k »

Jake,

My son calls those Dad-isms. I've tried to give as good as I got. ANd think he's suffered his share.

My Dad worked the hard road on Route 66 in the 30's and he had some colorful ones, I'll tell you what!

As a matter of fact, the one I think of on a daily bases, is the one about not having sense enough to pour a certain fluid out of a boot. This one comes up when I'm explainig my suggested break-in procedure for these White's Wildland Fire Boots I sell. Theirs is a high quality 10 ounce leather insole, and it's a commitment to the boots to break them in. So I suggest mixing a couple ounces of Lexol Conditioner with a cup of warm water, and sloushing it around in there for a minute or so, before wearing it 4 to 6 hours the first day. Reminding them to pour it out before they put it on. And not to be like my Dad used to say...
That one has ammused me since the day I realized the origins of a saying like that.

I'd better quit. I'm startin' to sound so fullofit, my eyes are turnin' brown.

PK
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Re: Insole leather

#195 Post by bjohnsonleather »

Paul,
Thanks for the endorsement of this group. I read all of DW's articles in the LCSJ, good mix of info there on aesthetics, tradition, and not being closed-minded to modern improvements. Glad I joined,I am enjoying it, and picking up tips and tricks that transfer over to what I do. Who knows, I might start making boots some day. I have about 30 feet of elephant I picked up at Sheridan for seat inlays, may hold some back.
Regarding the "dad-ism". My grandpa furthered it by adding "if the instructions where written on the heel". You might want to include that for the less astute customer. Thanks again, mi amigo.
Bruce Johnson
paul_k

Re: Insole leather

#196 Post by paul_k »

Bruce,

Glad you joined us! I noticed you already posted once. Great!

Do make boots! You'll love the adventure!

Besides, Elephant boots are way better than Elephant seats.

PK
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Re: Insole leather

#197 Post by jake »

Paul,

Another method is mixing a good squirt of Ivory dishwashing liquid in a cup of water. I know of a bootmaker who uses this solution instead of "stretching" fluid. Softens the leather pretty darn quick, readily available, and a little less expensive.

Welcome Bruce! Elephant is my favorite leather! Toughest leather you can put on a boot!
shoestring

Re: Insole leather

#198 Post by shoestring »

Bruce,
Hello on this side I can now reach you twice,and yes enough reading you will find a "Last" in your hands.
Welcome..........
Ed
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Re: Insole leather

#199 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Strange thing happening to my insole leather. I soaked the insoles in a (plastic) bucket of water, and then tacked them to the bottom of my lasts, flesh side out. This was a couple hours ago, and they are still pretty damp. But they are developing grey speckles scattered about, almost as if someone shook dark grey baby powder all over them. Some areas are scattered thinly, and then there are some more dense splotches.

A few details which I don't THINK have anything to do with it: Since my lasts are made of Durham's water putty, which is kind of water soluble, I put some plastic wrap over the bottom of the lasts before tacking the leather on, to prevent a lot of moisture from soaking into the lasts Image. I also soaked a scrap of the same leather, just to experiment, and the flesh side doesn't seem to be doing this nearly as much, although there are now some tiny grey speckles on the grain side that I didn't notice before the soaking.

Can the metal of the tacks be causing some sort of reaction in the leather? The scrap piece, with no tacks in it, doesn't seem nearly as bad as the insoles that are tacked on the lasts. I am really perplexed. If those insoles were bread, I would be throwing them out because I'd fear that was mold growing on them Image!


Jenny
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Re: Insole leather

#200 Post by bjohnsonleather »

Jenny,
A topic I do know something about, instead of just being in awe of this group's talents and philosophies. Sounds like the tacks or other iron source are the cause of the spots. Iron reacts with wet vegtan leather and causes blackening or freckles. It can happen from tacks or nails, flying iron dust pieces like from a sharpening on a wheel, or handling tools that have iron. I have created smudges and specks from picking up a hammer by the head, moving a anvil or riveting block, or even handling a strop ,and then touching wet leather. That small amount of iron that tranfers off to your hand can be enough. Some leather may pick up iron fragments from rolling out on a surface with iron particles on it, only to turn black when wet later. Bigger crisis than a pimple on the prom queen.
My current source of frustration is black freckles on saddle skirts and seat. Some of the past saddles this year had the same problem, only on those pieces. I have not had this problem on the other pieces from these sides, and my diligence due to past bad experiences. Pinned down the source. Usually I get my water for my casing from the kitchen tap. For these bigger pieces I filled the big plastic tub from the outside hose bib. Tested some water this AM, ran the first water out into a clear jar - slightly rusty - the light came on. The rust and iron from that old pipe was contaminating my water, and transferring to the leather. You just never know where it will come from. Only took me about 6 to figure this out.
I don't know cosmetically how that will affect your insoles. What I use to clean it is swipe of lemon juice, the acid will neutralize it somehow. Others use a dilute oxalic acid (wood bleach) solution from the hardware store. Some people suggest netralizing the acid later with saddle soap, since the acids tend to harden up the leather. Hope this helps,

Bruce
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