Toe boxes

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Toe boxes

#126 Post by jenny_fleishman »

I used Dextrine on my first fitter shoe, and find that the heel stiffener is now seperating from the upper leather around the edges of the stiffener. The Dextrine was easier to work with, and seemed to give pretty good stiffness for the toe box (at least it is resilient when dented), but I'm not sure that it really stiffened the heel counter enough. And I am also concerned about the layers of leather seperating. Anyone else experience this happening with Dextrine?

Jenny
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Re: Toe boxes

#127 Post by jenny_fleishman »

re cements, and leather types for toeboxes. My next pair of shoes will hopefully be ones I can wear, and will be made of kidskin, lined with pigskin, or at least, that's the plan! Image.

I've been re-reading many of the toe box postings...thank you DW, Chris and others for all your wonderful information.

Still have some questions, and forgive me if they've been answered already and I didn't come across the answers.

re cements...is there a risk that all three (Barge, press cement, Dextrine) will soak through the kidskin?

Can all three cements be applied to the toe/heel stiffener while the stiffener is damp?

If not, do you last the damp stiffeners without cement, take the stiffeners off the last once dry, and THEN cement the stiffeners onto the lining, and then the upper leather to the stiffeners?

I had trouble getting an invisible edge at the back of toe stiffener to the vamp. Is press cement the only cement where you can coat the stiffener and then sand it to do further shaping?

On my last pair of fitter shoes I used 2-3 oz veg tan for the toe stiffener, and 4-5 oz for the heel stiffener. Does it make much difference what part of the hide it comes from (shoulder, belly, side, etc.) in terms of workability while lasting, and functional performance in the finished shoe?

Thanks for any info! Image

Jenny
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Re: Toe boxes

#128 Post by dw »

Jenny,

First, the use of cements...I don't do things quite the way dedicated shoemakers do so you may need to address these questions to Robert or someone who does make shoes.

That said, I regularly use all-puprose to adhere the raw (and damp) toe box to the lining as I last it. But!! I coat the "down" side of the toe box with AP while it is still dry. AP will stick to dry leather. Later when I am about to mount it (after it has been thoroughly wet) I apply another coat of AP--this reactivates the original coat and insures that the two coats bond.

When the toe box has dried, I shape and then use press cement to coat and stiffen. One last coat goes on just before the toe of the vamp is pulled. And the toe is pulled while the press cement is wet. I wet the toe of the vamp with water in a spritz bottle for the sole purpose of preventing the press cement from soaking too far into, or through, the vamp leather. But the wet press cement will adhere to the wet vamp leather.

As for dextrine...I have worked with it while making saddles...have never used it on shoes or boots. But it is an entirely different beast. I am sure that it will adhere to wet leather. I am not so sure that it will adhere to press cement (and I doubt AP will adhere to press cement without roughing) much less AP.

As for leathers, here's my take...components taken from disparate portions of the hide will react differently--they'll take up water differently; they'll give up water differently; they'll temper differently; they'll respond to water differently...becoming more or less flexible depending on where they come from. If you are going to use AP or dextrine for your toes and or heel stiffener, you may need a firmer leather than if you use press cement. But firmer is usually short fibered and short fibered and firmer mean harder to conform around the toe (the heel stiffener is less problematic), making lasting out all those pipes in the toe box difficult.

I use good quality leather for heel stiffeners--usually from the prime areas of the bend and offal (more or less--even "scraps" picked up off the floor) for the toe boxes. I don't use any cement or glue for the heel stiffeners (mine are always sewn in ala a western boot--even in my "shoes"...balmorals, etc,), and AP and press cement as described above for toe boxes.

Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by dw on October 01, 2006)
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Re: Toe boxes

#129 Post by tmattimore »

I don't do many toe boxes but on the shoes I use with a counter pocket I use barge on the stiffner when the upper and stiffener are soaking wet. Just before I last I insert the stiffener (usualy 8 to 10 oz) in the pocket and slather it up with barge then last it. I generaly use 6 oz uppers and 3 oz counter covers. It takes an extremly long time to dry, about 3 days on the last depending on the weather, but makes a very firm stiffener that is somewhat more water resitant. I have done little with kid but I have found barge bleeding thru is not a problem. I am more likely to get glue on the upper from careless handling then any thing else.
relferink

Re: Toe boxes

#130 Post by relferink »

Jenny,

You will always run the risk that the press cement and even Dextrine will come through the kidskin and your pigskin lining as well, best to do a little test. When in doubt you can always put a thin insulating coat of AP over the leather. Not much will penetrate through this rubbery layer once it's dry. You should really have your toebox skived very well before putting it on, once it's on the last you can touch up some small areas but it's very hard it you have to take off a significant amount of material. If you would have to do that press cement is your best bet since it gets nice and hard and can be sanded.

As to what part of the hide, the firmer the leather is the thinner it can be so I would stay away from a belly or side, a firmer piece of shoulder should do well.

Rob
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Re: Toe boxes

#131 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Rob, thanks. Wasn't sure if it was OK to mix types of cements.

Jenny
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Re: Toe boxes

#132 Post by j1a2g3 »

Question!

After I put my Toe Box on and it's feathered, do I then pre punch holes in the toe box or punch the holes when I inseam? Thanks in advance, Joel
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Re: Toe boxes

#133 Post by dw »

Joel,

Probably doesn't amke any difference one way or the other but I just pull the toe over, wipe, and when I go to inseam I follow the hole in the holdfast in the toe area and it will generally come out in the feather of the toe box. So...no, I don't "pre-hole" the toe box.

If you are uncertain, however, do so, by all means. No harm, no foul. And you'll get a sense of where the holes will come out and whether you toe box feather is right.

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Re: Toe boxes

#134 Post by shoestring »

Let me ask this,there is a lot of attention placed on toe boxes.Could I assume that the same attention is paided to putting on heel counters.And using press cement to stiffen them also.Also,is there a difference in one for a shoe vs. a boot.

Ed
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Re: Toe boxes

#135 Post by dw »

Ed,

I'm not really qualified to give you a universal answer. But bottom line...

A great deal of attention is and should be paid to every aspect of the shoe or boot...equally. That said, the procedures for handling a heel stiffener on a western boot...at least as I make it...are very different from handling the toe box.

This might change if you were talking about shoes with a "pocket counter." With shoes, I know that the heel stiffener benefits from meticulous skiving and is usually stiffened or "glued" into the pocket, although I don't think that press cement is the common choice, in this instance. Hopefully someone like Rob will jump in here and elaborate.

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Re: Toe boxes

#136 Post by shoestring »

DW & Others
Shoes is what I was referring to.I have skived the stiffner to nothing in the correct areas.I guess what I am wondering should it be wet molded before going on and will several coats of cement cause it to harden up,thats why I thought the press cement would work best.Any and all imput is needed an appreciated.

Ed
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Re: Toe boxes

#137 Post by tmattimore »

Ed for shoes I wet the stiffener and shoe slide the stiffener into the pocket, then barge it on both sides and last it. Dont put so much barge on that it oozes out the stitch holes. Last the shoe and let it dry a long time, 3 days depending on the weather.
It makes a pretty firm stiffener with out using too heavy a leather. I have even used 3-4 oz veg tan splits this way for a dress shoe. just skive well here is one I did not skive and it shows.
4746.jpg
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Re: Toe boxes

#138 Post by shoestring »

Tom M,
I will take that method under careful consideration,and as I run into or should I say have other shoe building questions I hope you don't mine me dropping you a line.Thanks
relferink

Re: Toe boxes

#139 Post by relferink »

Ed,

For the heel counter you can do things very similar to the way you handle the toe box. Some will say the counter is not as critical cause unevenness will not show as much as it does on the toe. That will be your call to make.
If you feel one layer of press cement is enough you generously apply the press cement on the counter before lasting, stick it in your upper and last the whole thing.
If you want the counter stiffer and feel that 3 or so layers of press cement would be better you last the shoe without the counter, fold back the quarters once lasted and apply the counter. In order to have it take the shape you may have to tack it down in the center of the lateral and medial counter so you will be left with 2 nail holes in your lining, not very noticeable but not the the best look either. After that apply your press cement, as many layers as you like. Sand and scrape smooth just like you would do with the toe box.
The method I prefer the few times I use leather counters is last the counter very moist, not dripping wet but with a lot of moister left in the counter. Add press cement on the grain side (last side) and the lining before lasting. Have it sit for a couple of hours and than fold back the quarters, exposing the counter in order to apply press cement. You have to find the right time where the counter has had enough time to set to the last shape but is still moist enough to comfortably work with the press cement. I don't like the way it works when the counter is to dry. Since I typically not wet-last (other than the counter and the toe box)I would not suggest putting the shoe in a plastic bag to slow down the drying process but if you wet last I don't see how it could hurt unless you use a non-sealed wooden last.
Once the counter is “finished” you apply some final press cement and pull down the quarters and finish the shoe.
Using all purpose as Tom Mattimore suggested will work well, especially if you use it as I described in the first step, substitute press cement with all purpose. The counter will set up fine once it's dry (drying time my be long since you coat it in an layer of artificial rubber film) but may not give you long term firmness and stance that may be required. My counters are longer than average so I look for a lot of firmness and stance.

That's my viewpoint as a shoemaker so it's a little different from a boot where you can not fold back the pocket to get to the counter once lasted.
Hope this helps you out. Feel free to give me a hauler if you have any further questions.

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on February 04, 2007)
shoestring

Re: Toe boxes

#140 Post by shoestring »

Rob,

Thanks, what you described was what my orginal though was.Being green I needed to hear from the more experienced. And now I will take strong consideration of both points given by Tom & yourself.With all this good information I should do ok and some thinking of my own. Thanks to you both.

Ed
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Re: Toe boxes

#141 Post by jenny_fleishman »

My counter experience, with my first and only pair of lined shoes, in other words, "what NOT to do"... Image

Before I lasted the shoe I soaked the heel counters, let them dry until moist and then lasted them onto the lasts. Let them dry completely so they held the shape of the last. Took them off the last. Then I lasted the upper, cemented the lining to the insole, coated the last-side of the counter with Barge and tried to insert it inbetween the lining and upper.

Here I discovered a big problem. My lining and upper leather were all sewn together at the quarter/vamp seam, so I couldn't really fold back the outer leather for good access to the heel area. Not only that, but an even bigger boo-boo .... the heel counter was too long for the quarter pocket (?)...it was cut long for good suppport (nice idea), but so long that it would go farther forward than the quarter/vamp seam. But since the lining was sewn to the outer leather at that point, no go! Image

I had to shorten the counters, and it was still really difficult to get the counter in the counter pocket. Needless to say I felt like "idiot for the day"!

As you might guess, my next pair of shoes will have what I believe is called a "hung" lining. Not sure, Rob, if I can use my other procedures and still put the counter in damp. Perhaps I could re-dampen it just before put it in the counter pocket. I am not confident that I could last the counter at the same time as the upper and get it lined up right, and do the lasting fast enough before the cement dries.

I contribute this fiasco because I believe one can learn quite a bit from the incompetent (me), although not as much as from the competent! Image

Jenny
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Re: Toe boxes

#142 Post by shoestring »

Would it be out of line to use the same upper leather on a shoe to make a toe box?At present I am using a "Casual Buffalo" from Garlin.

Ed
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Re: Toe boxes

#143 Post by paul »

Ed,

I'm going to jump right in with my comment.

Of course it would depend on what you wanted in a toe box, but I wouldn't think the casual buffalo would firm up enough. I've always understood that one of the benifits of chrome tan was that it was softer. It's made to be that way. I suppose a feller could slather it real good with celluloid cement and get some firmness. But why do that? Even a piece of split veg tan would be firmer once it was coated with press cement.

But then, while it probably wouldn't be the best choice, I don't think the toe box police would come and get you, if that was all you had to work with.

PK
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Re: Toe boxes

#144 Post by dw »

Ed,

Although I've seen chrome tanned leather used for toe boxes, I'd have to agree with Paul for the most part.

But bottom line is that it sort of depends on what you want and what effect your looking for. For instance, sometimes I make boots for guys that are single action shooters (SAS). They want an old timey look. All the way up to the early 1900's you might not see any kind of toe stiffener in a man's boot of the kind worn out west. So even a little wear would collapse the whole front end of the boot.

If I want to replicate that effect, I'll use a thin piece of upper leather...just enough to give some shape and form to the toe until the boot goes out the door, but not enough to be real rigid. That said, my choice is a thin veg tan rather than a chrome.

Either way, using chrome or veg upper leathers is a lot easier to do than using soling leather for a toe stiffener.

And frankly, if I were doing men's (or women's ) dress shoes, I would be thinking that a sole leather toe box is way overkill.

Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by dw on April 03, 2007)
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Re: Toe boxes

#145 Post by shoestring »

PK,
Thanks for letting me know the "Toe Box" police will let me slide,that choice of leather was just a passing idea, now it's gone.......... .

DW,
I did use a 3-4 oz.veg piece which worked out well I am still in the learning stage but the next pair I will for sure use that wipping method you demoed.I did it on the heel an it looked good I was a bit stingy with the upper leather around the toe but it was a leasson well learned.I don't think I will have a need for soling leather.Thanks for the input.

Ed
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Re: Toe boxes

#146 Post by j1a2g3 »

I have been playing around alot lately. Trying different things to see how things work. So I can have a better understanding of what is going on.

I justed put a toe box on a boot and was having a hard time getting the leather onto the insole. I used a piece of 10/11 iron insole that I split for the toe box. As I was working like a dog to get the toe box formed to the last, an idea come to me. Wipe it! It took me no time to get the leather all smooth and onto the insole. Has anyone tried this before?
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Re: Toe boxes

#147 Post by shoestring »

Just courious,

I applied three coats of press cement to a toe box and the front part was hard but on this second pair I applied five coats,each sanded before reapplying the next.How many coats of cement does any one else use or is that a makers decision.Reason I asked, these are the only times I have used the product.

Ed
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Re: Toe boxes

#148 Post by dw »

I generally apply five or more coats. It depends upon several things--how thin the cement is and how long you let each coat dry.

Beyond that, I sand or scrape between each coat (after it has dried thoroughly) but I do not sand all the previous coat off, you understand. The whole point of the sanding is to just remove the "nubbins" of loose flesh that were frozen by the cement. When you have enough coats of cement in place that the surface is smooth...no texture at all...you can start thinking about calling it "good enough."

That said, I do some shaping with the scraper...I blend everything into the lining in a very precise and fastidious manner (I don't want to feel an edge when I run my fingers from the front towards the back...and I dern sure don't want to see it after lasting) and sometimes I will even correct the shape if I have to.

Of course, more coats will tend to distort the shape (unless the shape is perfect to begin with) but more coats will make it stiffer too. What do you want?

And bear in mind that if you are using a very thin leather for your toe box but still want a good stiff box, you may want more coats. I make some toe boxes out of scraps of 2 ounce veg lining leather and put only a minimal number of coats on--I want the toe box to be super flexible and maybe even collapse if the wearer wants them to (some of the re-enactor types like this).

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Re: Toe boxes

#149 Post by romango »

What is press cement? Do you have a brand name and source? I've always user Herschkleber for toe boxes.
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Re: Toe boxes

#150 Post by corvin »

Has anyone else ever tried using Gorilla Glue? It's easy to obtain, waterproof and creates a nice stiff but flexible toe cap.
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