Toe boxes

[thomd]

Here is some stuff on the exploding balls etc...

http://www.packagingtoday.com/introcelluloid.htm

I wonder if one could just disolve a ping pong ball with the appropriate solvent, then brush it on...

They still sell the celluloid bindings for guitars. I make my guitars with wood bindings, which is just as well since the shipping of the calluloid ones is expensive as they are a hazardous material.

[gshoes]

I just purchased a quart of Press Cement (Toe Box) from Panhandle Leather, Amarillo Tx 800-537-3945. It just arrived today $15.

[dw]

Here's a question for shoemakers...advice, opinions, instructions welcome.

If a maker has a last that has a nice toe character and wants to preserve that character/shape but also make a shoe with a punched toe cap/broguing, most of the time the vamp would be run all the way under the toe cap.

But how do we preserve the shape of the last with the extra layer of leather? Is the vamp itself ever used as a toe stiffener?

For that matter even if it isn't, is the toe cap glued to the vamp?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:

From what I understand -- 1. the under layer of leather and/or the lining may be skived to reduce the thickness of same; 2. the insole may be actually extended a bit beyond the toe of the last.

I believe the vamp piece is pasted to the cap when they are lasted.

Don't know that the puff is excluded all together, but it can be skived to a very thin thickness, particularly if it is made of a firm veg tanned leather.

Of course, if you don't extend the vamp piece, you can underlay the punching with a very thin layer of skived leather.

Given my mixed results with the toes of the bal boots I posted recently, I look forward to others' experience and guidance.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Thanks for your response. I had hoped you would take this up and welcome your comments...although like you I am hoping for varied input on this...because you're the only one I know for sure who has done it.

To my way of thinking skiving the vamp by hand and getting it even would be a real trick. But in the absence of that trick or some really, really good skiving skills I don't see hand skiving as a realistic option.

Skiving by machine begs the question of why the vamp is extended at all. I have split an underlay for punched toe boots using a Fortuna skiver. It works well and by the most rigourous of standards, no sign of the underlay can be detected...even in profile.

But I understand that this is a very traditional technique in the UK and I saw a pair of Delos that was being done like that as well. Not to mention at least one photo in HMSFM. So, this is a technique that I would like to learn more about... if only to help me decide whether to pursue it further or not.

Pasting the vamp and toe cap makes sense.

A very thin toe stiffener seems dubious. Why couldn't the vamp itself function as a toe stiffener?

What does extending the insole accomplish?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on June 04, 2010)

[romango]

I'm surprised to hear that most of the time the vamp is run under the toe cap. I would never have even considered that.

I just back the medallion with a thin skived piece.

[danfreeman]

I too was surprised to read in Golding, Plucknett, Swaysland, etc, that toe-cap shoes were usually doubled: the vamp was full-sized, and the toe cap a full extra layer. It made me feel pretty wimpy--I was trained to end the vamp where it joins the toecap, and have always done so. Lasting would have been harder the old way, but these may have been better shoemakers than we.
For perforated toecaps, I use a hand-skived underlay; sometimes it takes 2 tries to get it right.

[janne_melkersson]

A full vamp with a toe cap on top is a stronger construction then a divided vamp that is the reason for doing this plus the joint will not be visible which sometimes could be seen even on pretty high end shoes with the vamp divided.

I am using this method and it is not hard to last it just takes longer time. If a skin is used that comes in different thickness I use a thinner skin for the toe cap. 1.2-1.4 (talking about mens shoes) for the vamp and 0.8-1.0 for the toe cap.

This is used on riding boots too but not only regarding the vamp, the top goes all the way down including lasting allowance and the counter cover is sewed on. The same thinking, a divided top weakens the construction.

[danfreeman]

Janne,
Right you are, and The Old Dons mentioned in my post all go into detail as to how the problems are overcome, including 2-step lasting, leather selection, rasping out the channel between layers, and more--it's no doubt the stronger way. But I am often called upon to make shoes with narrow toes, or toes with a lot of receed, and really want to cut down bulk here. I will admit, since you told me to do the same thing several years ago, with riding boot outside counters, doubling them over a full leg, I have done so--here strength is even more important, and appearance less so.

[mack]

DW,
Lance mentioned a few tips about keeping the toe shape with multiple layers of leather.
Nearly all the shoes I make have a full vamp with the toe cap laid on top.The method of skiving the vamp and adding a toecap is really a leather saving technique used in factories, it can work but the skive must be perfect to not show in the finished shoe.A bespoke shoe really should have the double layer in my opinion. The leathers we use for dress shoes may be lighter than you would generally use for your boot work so this may help.
The insole can be left longer at the toe to enhance the shape more and if you put a thin toe puff in this helps as well.
I paste the toe puff when I last the vamp and then paste the lasted over edge when doing the cap.
When I shape a last I usually make the toe a little sharper and defined than I want the finished shoe so the layers of the upper do not totally give a heavier shape.
Some of the old makers could do wonderful toe shapes on not very nice lasts spending a lot of time hammering the toe puff and adding extra leather between the lining and puff.
As Janne said using a lighter piece of leather for the cap is a good idea.
Just my take on things.
Mack

[dw]

Mack,

I am still confused about extending the insole. Do you mean extending the last? What advantage would there be in having a portion of the insole sticking out beyond the featherline?

What do you do if it's shell you're working with and you want to run the vamp under the toe cap? Anything different...especially with regards lasting two layers of shell?

Also...kind of off to the side...but if it makes sense, for strength and aesthetics (and I'm not saying it doesn't), to put the toe cap on top of the vamp why not also put the heel foxing over a full quarter?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mack]

DW,
Extending the insole is just leaving the insole a little longer at the toe.It helps lengthen the toe shape.
Shell is not so popular here in UK but when I have used it lasting two layers was fine.The shell was not heavy so I dont know if it is usually thick.I think you have to judge what you think is possible with individual skins and if you need to use a skive and added toe cap so be it.
You will have to help me out DW what is heel foxing ?
Mack.

[dw]

Mack,

The reason why I asked about shell is that shell long wings have been quite popular in this country for many, many years. And shell is usually around four ounce and a bit stiffer than calf.

As for "foxing," well, you might call it the "counter"...and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if "counter" wasn't the technically correct term...but I was taught that "counter" was the term for the heel stiffener and "counter cover" was the covering component. (I'm trying to get my lexicon straightened out but decades of immersion in a different culture has a spoiling effect. )

In any case, think of a full brogued oxford...the piece I'm talking about is to the quarter as the toe cap is to the vamp...to the heel as the toe cap is to the toe. Maybe it's a "heel cap?"

I've seen deconstructed West End shoes where the quarters did not run under the "counter" but were cut and seamed along the edge of the "counter." I'm just curious as to why the rationale for cutting a full vamp and overlaying the toe cap doesn't apply to the "heel cap," as well.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mack]

DW,
Thanks for explaining foxing.
Well nearly all counters are placed over a full quarter in my experience, so there are 4 layers to last at the heel ( lining, stiffener, quarter and counter ).I can only remember a few jobs with a skived quarter and laid on counter and this may have been done to keep the shoe extra light perhaps.So generally the double layer is used on toe and heel.The deconstructed shoes you have seen sound interesting, which maker were they ?
I know shell is very popular in the USA but over the last twenty years I have hardly come across it.I think its hard to get hold of here as well.
Mack
P.S.
The last shoes you posted are a huge step up in the look you are after ,especially the waist, well done

[dw]

Mack,

The deconstructed shoes...I don't know who the maker was. Several very generous friends sent me shoes to look at when I was first thinking about making shoes.

Thanks for your input on this heel and toe business I have been meaning to experiment with the technique...although the skived toe cap/vamp is probably more common in the states, regardless of whether they are bespoke or not.

Also a big thank you for the kind words about the last pair of shoes I posted. As you can see, patterning/design work is one of my "three things"--as, if I am not going to be too hard on myself, is to be expected at this stage of the game, I guess. But I do believe I can do the work. And do it well. It's gratifying to have your input, however, as I think that you may be one of the best I've yet encountered...sincerely.

In a perfect world, Redmond, Oregon would be less than 25 miles from London, England and I'd come over to your house three times a week (bearing a bottle of Ardbeg 18, of course) and watch you work and quietly, gently, pick your brain.

In a less than perfect world, I am happy to study your photos for every nuance.

Thanks...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[producthaus]

This is a question for all stiffener applications (toe puff, side walls, and counter). I have some 10-11iron stiffener coming from warkov, and my initial thought is that's a bit thick.

1) Is 10-11 irons too thick for men's dress shoes. Even too thick for bootmaking?

2) Can you skive the entire piece down (not just the edges), if you don't have access to a splitting machine? Any pointers on technique?

Alternately, is there anyone in California that would split the leather for me?

[romango]

Nick,

Yes, no problem. Although I do use a splitter, the part I'm splitting off is the softest part and can easily be skived or shaved off.

The traditional way is to soak the leather for a couple hours and then skive it down.

I usually end up using a combination of french skive, curved skiving knife and broken glass, with the leather still dry, then wet it and do the final skiving to get it where I want it.

[producthaus]

Rick,

I should be careful with my terminology, though I think you understood what I was saying.

So I can do the "splitting" action via a skiving knife, then once the overall thickness is where I want, wet the leather and skive the edges like normal?

Can you please explain french VS curved skiving?

[romango]

Nick,

Below is a French skive (brown handle), a curved skiving knife and a piece of glass.

The French skives are available at any leather working store. Curved knives are harder to come by.

But you could literally skive your piece down using only the French skive, in a pinch.

You won't be able to split without a splitter.

11393.jpg

[courtney]

I sanded down my toe puffs with a belt sander, I have also done pretty good with one of those crummy skifes.

[dw]

The thing about it is that a splitter is one of those machines that just does it right...the first time.

I've been buying heavy shoulders for years and I split them from 11-12 iron to 6 iron; or to 9 iron or to 3 iron...all from the same piece of leather. And adjusted properly the splitter will leave the wanted piece an even thickness from end to end and side to side.

I had some insoles sent to me that were hand reduced by an individual who does it regularly and often. They were very well done (I couldn't have come close) and make no mistake they could have been used with absolutely no worries. But they were not even pretending to absolute evenness.

A good bench mounted splitter...properly sharpened and adjusted...can set you back close to a grand. Seems like a lot, I know, but if I split a a heel stiffener to six iron I have, at the very least, the other 5-6 iron that I can use to build up lasts. But that said, I have been experimenting with using the splits for toe stiffeners....or even a second pair of heel stiffeners in fitter's models.

In other words, I have a usable piece of leather left over when I split with a splitting machine. But when you grind down or chip away to reduce substance all you end up with is crumbs on the cutting room floor.

Considering that we buy insole and outsole leather by weight, I think it might be more economical to either buy a splitter or only buy the thicknesses you need than to try and split by hand.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tjburr]

In working on a recent pair of shoes, it made me start questioning what I was doing wrong with my toe boxes.

After stretching the toe box over the lining/last, I ended up with a toe shape that looked more like a clown shoe than the sleek dress shoe last I started with. This is something that happened before as well and I just went forward with the more "engineer boot" looking toe.

Luckily I was visiting Arizona at thanksgiving and had a wonderful visit with Paul and he was able to give me some hands on advice; once again many thanks. It looks like I just have to sand the toe into a better shape.

However, thinking about this prior to talking to Paul did make me want to ask a question about toe boxes.

I started thinking that since I was making a dress shoe that I should have used a much lighter leather for the toe box. I then started thinking that if I had used a thinner leather it would have formed much better to the toe; I have used a thinner leather on buildups and it makes matching the last much easier.

I then started wondering if for heavier toe boxes it might be reasonable and even more effective to make a toe box of several layers of thinner leather. Maybe starting with a larger piece covering the area of a normal toe box, with the edges skived. Then having a smaller piece layered on top, with additional skiving. This would allow for positioning exactly where I wanted the thicker part of the toe box and also get a much better control of the flow of the leather over the last/lining. This would also end up with more of a composite leather tow that would probably be stronger for a thinner toe box.

Would this work? Is this a bad idea? Does the logic make sense?

Terry

[romango]

Terry,

There are a couple of approaches to the toe box IMHO. One is to try to skive it perfectly for the desired result, before applying. The second is to make it thicker than the desired end result and sand/glass/file to get the final shape.

I generally go for something between the two approaches. That is, skive it more-or-less to the desired outcome and then finish it off by shaping after dry.

The biggest challenge is to make a smooth transition at the top of the box. If there is a bit of excess at the front, that may actually be desirable in that it give you some leeway in shaping the toe profile.

[producthaus]

I am having Keystone Leather make a die for stamping toe boxes, can someone post or send me a few dimensions, like height and width, which the die will be based off.

These will be more men's dress shoes.

Attached is two possible shapes, can anyone comment on preference?

12549.jpg

[johnl]

Check with panhandle leather. They have celastic toe boxes already stamped out