Toe boxes

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Toe boxes

#1 Post by admin »

All messages posted prior to 25 February 2002 have been moved to the first Crispin Colloquy CD Archive. Those interested in obtaining a copy of this CD need to contact admin@thehcc.org

Admin--06 May 2002
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gcunning
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Re: Toe boxes

#2 Post by gcunning »

All this toe box talk made me think of a question.
How is a steel toe put in a boot?
bct

Re: Toe boxes

#3 Post by bct »

Gary, did you really want to know about steel toes? Or just skip the Leather and Celastic toe box conversation? : )

I have 18 years experience wearing them 12-15 hours a day. I also have built two pair of boots with them.
bct

Re: Toe boxes

#4 Post by bct »

Gary just having some fun!!!!

First, you find steel toes in your size big enough for your foot by shoe size.

Second, build up the last to fit the inside and the shape of the steel toe.

Third, glue the lining edge to the intersole as usual, slip the steel toe over the lining pull the vamp back over and inseam.

Fourth, be sure to sew the industry standard tags into the boots tops if the individual work for a company that requires steel toes. (ANSI Z41.1) All new steel toes come with two tags.


"Dragging My Feet"
Brian C. Thomas
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gcunning
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Re: Toe boxes

#5 Post by gcunning »

I don't want to get in any discussion with anyone about toe boxes. I started to e-mail Tex privately but decided that's not for the best.
Tex,
I'm to the toe boxes on this fox job on this pair of ooooold Justin's.
I want to make sure I do this right.
Can you correct me on any mistakes?
- coat the celastic in acetone
- place 2 takes on top to hold box
- turn upside down, pull piping and nail toe box
- take heavy thread into channel and tie off
- let dry
- shape
- cover with press cement
- let dry
- pull vamp and ready for welt
I'll wait on your answer.
Thanks
Tex Robin

Re: Toe boxes

#6 Post by Tex Robin »

Gary,

If you are using the pre-cut Celastic toe boxes saturate them completly with a mixture of 1/2 acetone and 1/2 all-purpose thinner(acetone alone won't do it)Let them dry till softened. Turn them over and put a coat of all-pourpose on them and your boot lining. In another five mins or so they will be ready to pull over. Lasting tacks or lasting pliars are not necessary. Pull your string down around the channel with a tack at each end Let dry overnight(preferably) and then finish and last over the vamps....TR
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Re: Toe boxes

#7 Post by gcunning »

Thanks
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Re: Toe boxes

#8 Post by rileycraig »

Tex,

I use Celastic toe boxes...where does a "string" come in. It seems I could learn something here.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley
Tex Robin

Re: Toe boxes

#9 Post by Tex Robin »

Riley,

You put a tack on each side of the toe box on the channel line and then wrap a piece of string on one tack,then you pull the string with a little tapping into the channel. Then you wrap the other end of the string on the other tack. It just makes a neater job. When the toe box is dry you remove the string....TR
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Re: Toe boxes

#10 Post by rileycraig »

Tex,

Thanks, yes, I remember seeing that done one time, but I think the maker used a light guage copper wire. I've been using a medium weight electric stapler, and put a few staples into the channel...just got to be sure and remove all of them. Think I'll try the string method...sounds like it may be a bit neater. Although it won't go anywhere, I like to catch a portion of the toe box when inseaming...the string should lay-in a good line for that.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley
shoestring

Re: Toe boxes

#11 Post by shoestring »

I am attempting to embark on making a pair of house slippers using the pattern from Koleffs book.My question is do toe puffs belong in house shoes or that's the makers choice and what is "celastic".I have some stuff around here that resemble paper that's use as a stiffner for hand bags that can be molded when wet.Since this is going to be a cemented job would it be wise to put in a mid sole.Thanks in advance.

Ed
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Re: Toe boxes

#12 Post by cmw »

Ed

I 'm not sure if I can help you, but your post made me think about some things that I would consider.

How thick and /or heavy is the sole going to be. I have some light weight clogs that I use as slippers. A toe box/ stiffener is a good idea because the sole is rubber and does not slide on the floor. This creates stress on the seem around the edge when the foot slides forward and pushes forward. You can see why I say some kind of stiffener is a good idea. My boss and master says that the upper and the sole have to work together not against each other.

On the other hand, we get a lot of turn shoe slippers in right now. They don't have stiffeners or the like. we say no!!!! to putting some kind of light weight rubber on the bottom because it would cause the stitch or the fur to break along the edge of the sole.

About the materials, I have no idea what ya'll use over there. What you describe reminds me of stiffener for the back of a light weight leather or fur. I wish I had the book you mentioned, give me time. As a cobbler I would say that a sole can be remove with out any problem if you know how, so avoid a mid sole on this type of shoe. If you use a plastic glue that is more effected by heat than other types you could easily heat the sole of to put another one on. This way you could avoid the thick sole and have some supple house shoes.

I hope some this helps.

A Wet Texan in DK
CW
tmattimore

Re: Toe boxes

#13 Post by tmattimore »

I use a product made by Foss on modern shoes or for those that want a stiff toe box. I belive it may be the same as Celastic. I prefer a leather toe box or puff which is softer. The Foss is basicly paper soaked in glue then softened with Tolulene or acetone just before use. It can make a mess of your uppers as the glue residue is white and can get every where(tools, fingers and clothes) You also have to work fast. Many old timers(he he) use press cement and leather. I have used with some success plain old all purpose but last before it is dry. In any case if you have build up or a wood last be sure to shellac and powder well as the glue on the paper or all purpose may soak thru the lining and make the shoe stick.
Tmattimore
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Re: Toe boxes

#14 Post by paul »

Ed,
Test what you have, using the formula Tom mentioned of acetone and cement thinner, about 50-50. Let it sit in there, and if it gets 'gooey' after a couple of minutes, take it out and let it set for a minute or so. Then pull it over a shape and let it dry. A hot air gun will speed it up. If it hardens, heck, give it a try in your slippers. It does indeed make a mess, but cleans up with cement thinner. Don't forget to clean your lasting pliers. (That's my concern everytime I use it.)
I've got a sheet of celastic here, I've had for years. I use it in repairs and toe changes. If you'd like to try it, I'd send you a piece. A pair of slippers would be a good project for testing a new and different procedure like that.
And I'd probably pass on the mid sole if it were I. It would stiffen them too much for a slipper, I'd think. Two coats of cement on your sole and I'd think it'd hold up fine to scuffin' around the house with a cup of coffee in your hand. Be easier on the dogs teeth, too.
PK
jonathon

Re: Toe boxes

#15 Post by jonathon »

G-day Ed.
The design for "House Slippers" in Georges book does not call for Toe Puffs. For that matter it doesn't call for Heel stiffners either.Instead a more stout piece of leather is used in the counter area as opposed to the rest of the lining which should be something quite soft.
Of course the decision is up to you. If you want something a bit more robust there is no reason you can't use stiffners and puffs, but keep it on the lighter side.1.5mm for puffs and 2.5mm for stiffners max. Remember this design is a "slipper" rather than a shoe.
Good Luck. Let us know how you get on.

Cheers.
Jon.
jonathon

Re: Toe boxes

#16 Post by jonathon »

Oops, Sorry Ed.
I forgot to answer your last question. I'd drop the idea of the midsole, It will simply make them too heavy. A cemented leather sole should be fine,around 9-10 iron. If your worried about them lifting they could always be blake stitched, just to be sure.

Hope this helps.
Cheers.
Jon.
shoestring

Re: Toe boxes

#17 Post by shoestring »

Jonathon,I did want something a bit more robust that's why I am shooting for the toe box and heel stiffener I will use your suggestion on sole size but what is a "blake stitch".And you and the other expert's continue to say stay away from the mid sole so it's out the window.Thank you and every one else that shared(ing)their skills P.K.,Brain T.,C.Williams,tmattiore,hope I did not for get a name if so forgive me.I am well on my way to attempting my second pair(green huh...).And may call again......no make that will call again.

Ed
jonathon

Re: Toe boxes

#18 Post by jonathon »

Ed.
A Blake, (McKay) Stitch is a heavy stitch securing sole, lasting allowance and innersole.
Most reasonable repair shops should be able to do this for you if you do not have the means. If your keen however,it is a process that can be done by hand, but this is alot more time consuming.Depends how carried away you want to get!
Yell out if you need to know more.

Cheers.
Jon.
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Re: Toe boxes

#19 Post by cmw »

Ed

I'm glad you might have some use for what I wrote, but don't put me in the same boat as the rest of the other guys that answered you.That may be the case one fine day, but not yet. good luck on the new project.

From one beginner to another
CW
T. J. Hall, III

Re: Toe boxes

#20 Post by T. J. Hall, III »

Yesterday I opened my partially filled gallon of Press Cement to find it completely congealed. I understand that one can no longer obtain Press Cement because of hazardous chemical problems.

My question is what can I use in its place to firm-up my leather toe boxes? I seem to remember years ago using either shellac or polyurethane, but I can not remember which I used nor how well it worked. I have simply used Press Cement by force of habit.

I ran a search on the site and found the thread (Open Forum: Techniques, Crans and Visualizations: Tools of the Trade: Archive--The First 500: archive 276-300) in late April 2002 which discussed using wheat paste or Hirschkleber (which I have an old jar of). That thread seemed to wind down without really giving strong consensus.

What would be the best alternative to Press Cement for leather toe boxes - wheat paste, shellac, polyurethane, or some other alternative?
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Re: Toe boxes

#21 Post by cmw »

T.J. Hall

I just started the next step of my education here in DK. The orthopedic master that I am learning from doesn't use Hirschkleber because of the way it breaks down( see other disc on subject) What I used on my first pair of shoes this wk was what they call "clickers cement" here (Nådlers cement)It has a more rubbery content and can be heated and put back in place if needed. I can't tell you how it works(putting back in place/shape) because it is a new way to do it for me. I hope this helps.

A cold Texan
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Re: Toe boxes

#22 Post by salsa »

Press cement is still available. DW got some. Acetone will disolve even completely dried out press cement. Somebody, Matt Newbury? swears by water based polyurethane finish.
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Re: Toe boxes

#23 Post by mnewberry »

Richard,

Is it acetone? I thought it was ketone... And I have used the water based floor finish for finishing build-ups on lasts, but I usually use the dreaded composite toe boxes, not leather. I build leather occasionaly, and have tried the water based stuff on them, but I couldn't vouch for it yet, at least in terms of "standing the test of time." It sure seems to look effective when I was doing it, though.

Matt
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Re: Toe boxes

#24 Post by salsa »

Matt,

It's acetone. Works for me. I take dried up drips of press cement and drop them into a jar of acetone. In an hour or two iv'e got fresh cement. I don't hardly ever have any waist. Sorry I misspelled your name.

What do you ask for withthe water based stuff?
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Re: Toe boxes

#25 Post by dai »

I saw dextrin suggested somewhere for a stiffening paste, but that insects will feed on it. Used also by taxidermists as a paste, so perhaps the insect feeding isn't such a serious problem.

Recipe: Heat corn flour at 200C in an oven till golden yellow. That yields dextrin apparently, though there is an alternative process using an acid.It took about an hour in my oven, stir at intervals. To be economic about it cook bread rolls at the same time perhaps.Add water to the dextrin for paste.

I made some yesterday, very sticky, very cheap and for want of anything else I will use it on leather toeboxes of my current (beginners') project. Is there any merit in using dextrin paste on a leather counter stiffener too (beyond the moulding and compressing/hammering)?

I read also that dextrin is used in fireworks. Exploding toepuffs anyone?

regards

Dai
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