Hand Wax / Coad

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#426 Post by jeoroi » Thu May 28, 2015 7:44 am

Hi Lance.

Yes it will of course discuss the techniques used as it also will be a scientific paper that will be published.

The analyse is not the end to all things, it just tells us what's in it and in what %. However there are some ingredients that are important and some that is not. A sample can be analysed in many different ways depending on what we want to know and it can be a very expensive process.

The sample from Al just tells us certain things but it dont tell us what pitch was used, it confirms a high level of rosin acids. The pitch boilers of past made pitch for different purposes and it was mostly depending on the hardness. My goal is to separate all the different steps e.g take everything to its basic product. Pure pitch, pure rosin etc. Once we have a pure pitch of the right quality we can start to experiment.

Some of the questions was if the producers also produced a ready product or if the end users modify the product to suit specific needs. My pitch samples will have the consistency as described in old texts and will be tested according to them. I will follow all the descriptions step by step and see what we get and why we get it. Once the pure pitch has been established it will be tested and used as a reference for future pitch.

All the shoemakers waxes that contain pitch that I have seen, dating back at least 100 years contain a lot of rosin, the question is when was it added? Swedish shoemakers for at least the past 100 years and even 300 years ago don't specify that rosin should be added, only tallow. This may indicate that the rosin content in their pitch was already very high so it was not needed. Also none of the old Swedish, Finnish or Norwegian texts talk about taffy pulling (at least not what I have found). However I am not just going by these sources for shoemakers wax, my research spans many different countries, but when it comes to pitch I go by these sources as the pitch made then was of a very high quality.

Trust me, there is tons of questions that I will answer in my paper.

If there is some samples of exceptional quality of shoemakers wax I can analyse it. PM me with an email address and I will send my address so samples can be sent out. I only need about 2 grams of the stuff but make sure it's a clean sample and not just tiny crumbles:-)

Analyses is just one part of the puzzle but it gives us indication of what was in, how much of it, how it was produced, if excessive heat was used etc.

/Jeorge

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#427 Post by jeoroi » Thu May 28, 2015 11:54 pm

The only linen I know thats made here in Europe have about 39 inches staple length, don't know if thats enough for you guys.

Here is what the producers say,

"Concerning the spinning of linen ( wet spinning in this case ) when using what we call “ long fiber “ we are talking about the original length of the flax plant. That means you cannot use anything longer, because it is the length of the original plant. Let say around 1 meter at the beginning of the textile process"

/Jeorge

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#428 Post by dw » Fri May 29, 2015 5:34 am

jeoroi » Thu May 28, 2015 11:54 pm wrote:The only linen I know thats made here in Europe have about 39 inches staple length, don't know if thats enough for you guys.

Here is what the producers say,

"Concerning the spinning of linen ( wet spinning in this case ) when using what we call “ long fiber “ we are talking about the original length of the flax plant. That means you cannot use anything longer, because it is the length of the original plant. Let say around 1 meter at the beginning of the textile process"

/Jeorge
Well, I think anyone of us would like to see linen or hemp with fibers as long as a meter. But we're not getting it.

Years and years ago (close to 40 years ago)...way before the Irish linen mills started closing shop...I bought a quantity of imported Barbour's (?)/Campbell's "Best" #10 Irish linen yarn, which I used for many pairs.

If the staple is greater than four inches in this yarn, I've yet to see it.

I also have some vintage post war #16 (?) linen yarn and again the staple is less than six inches.

I recently...in an fit of excess optimism...bought a large spool of "wet spun, long staple" Eastern European hemp yarn. The longest fiber I've seen in it was a random five incher. Most were more like three inches.

Hemp can grow eight to twelve foot high, so the fiber should be truly long but nothing I've seen from several sources comes close.

My wife spins linen and I've drawn fibers from her stricks that were 36" long (and none less than 20") but I've never seen anything come close in commercially prepared yarn.

FWIW...

On edit:...If anyone out there has linen or hemp yarn that has fibers (staple) longer than 12" inches I would dearly love to see a yard of so of it....just to satisfy my curiousity that it exists. I'd also like to know a source but that may be asking too much. :)

PM me.
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#429 Post by jeoroi » Fri May 29, 2015 7:12 am

Thats what the producer say, I am just passing information on:-)

Further he say,

"We supply all kind of counts, from Nm 4.8 to 39 ( and even thinner ) wet spun, 100% European linen long fiber, natural boiled, pre-bleached or dyed.
Please confirm the count area you are looking for and I will send you samples"

I know Al likes dryspun but like I said that's the only source I know for commercial linen thread (other than barbour No 10)

I will check with them again.

/Jeorge

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#430 Post by dw » Fri May 29, 2015 7:38 am

jeoroi » Fri May 29, 2015 7:12 am wrote:Thats what the producer say, I am just passing information on:-)

Further he say,

"We supply all kind of counts, from Nm 4.8 to 39 ( and even thinner ) wet spun, 100% European linen long fiber, natural boiled, pre-bleached or dyed.
Please confirm the count area you are looking for and I will send you samples"

I know Al likes dryspun but like I said that's the only source I know for commercial linen thread (other than barbour No 10)

I will check with them again.

/Jeorge
Oh, I don't doubt you...it's just that the several suppliers of European hemp call their product "long fibered" too.

I guess it depends on your definition of "long fibered." But when I un-spin (unravel) any of it, the fibers are not what I would call "long fibered." Some more like cotton lint, in fact.
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#431 Post by admin » Fri May 29, 2015 7:42 am

Jeorge,

Would you email or PM me with the contact information for the supplier?

admin@thehcc.org

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#432 Post by jeoroi » Fri May 29, 2015 7:51 am

Sent

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#433 Post by jeoroi » Fri May 29, 2015 9:25 am

My mistake, Al don't prefer dry spun:-)

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#434 Post by jeoroi » Fri May 29, 2015 9:30 am

Further from the producer, I have arranged samples to be shipped to Al and DW,

Nm 6 (should be equal to Barbour No 10, at least according to one post here on the site)

"The length of the fiber changes all along the fiber preparation and the spinning process. At the end, the length of the fiber in the yarn is much shorter. But again, the best quality you can spin is made with linen long fiber. You can find on the market, a lot of linen yarns spun with hackled tow because it is cheaper, especially in the coarse counts, but quality is lower in terms of strength. In the same time, to compensate the lower fiber grade, they have to spin with more twist.

Anyway, you were talking about Lea 10 = 3000 yards per pound = Nm 6

We have this yarn made with long fiber, in natural, so my suggestion is to send you a baby cone. You will see if the quality is OK and also if it is the right count size.

Forget the dry spun and the semi wet, the quality of these products will not be good enough, believe me. I can send you also a sample, you will see by yourself, and it is too “rustic “ for what you are doing".

I guess Al and DW will let us know if it's any good or not.

/Jeorge

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#435 Post by dw » Fri May 29, 2015 9:55 am

Jeorge,

I greatly appreciate that. I will certainly follow up with my evaluation.

BTW, let it be said right now that no matter the outcome, it is no reflection on the quality of the yarn nor the company. In my mind, even the #10 "Best" from Campbell's (it was Campbell's I bought all those years ago, not Barbour) is fine linen yarn...just not appropriate to the task.
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#436 Post by das » Sat May 30, 2015 2:20 pm

Jeorge,

Many thanks. My eyes are glued to the mailbox.

Wet, semi-dry, dry... I don't care as long as it's the same size single ply yarn as #10, and real hemp or flax, with a staple length of more than 6"

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#437 Post by jeoroi » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:37 pm

Hi Tedley.

I can't reply to private messages. I guess because I am a new member.

/Jeorge

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#438 Post by PWB » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:53 am

Greetings!

I'm an aspiring shoemaker and I've been reading about hand / wax and coad with great interest and a little frustration. With some difficulty and more expense than I would've liked, I've managed to track down Barbour's No. 10 flax thread, pine, rosin, tallow and beeswax. I also purchased a roll of 30 lb monofilament. After some trial and error, I've had some success making waxed cord, but I can't for the life of me get the cord to really hold tightly to the monofilament.

In preparing the ends, I abrade the monofilament so the coad will stick and I roll the taper very tightly down and then over itself and then I run the whole end through the coad a few more times, burnish and then lightly wax. Maybe the awl I'm using is too small for the cord (3-cord). Maybe I've mixed up the coad improperly (one part rosin, one part wax, a pinch of tallow). Anyway, I've thought to myself that I really need to add pine pitch to get it sticky(?). And since I'm not really clear what pine pitch is (even after poring through these fora), I moved on and tried other things (such as the stuff they use to put a grip on baseball bats) to no avail.

Then, I spotted on eBay, a listing for three balls of old Barbour's 2 oz. Shoe Thread and an unknown chunk of black "rosin" (photo attached). With the hope that this rosin was made by someone who actually knew what they were doing, I bought it. When it arrived, I found it was a very brittle substance that smells strongly like a fireplace. I can warm it up and make it soft, but it's not sticky at all. Assuming that this is pine pitch, my question is, what do I add to it to make it sticky? a little wax and a smidgen of a tallow? the coad I've made up?

Am I even on the right track?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions.
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#439 Post by dw » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:23 am

In my experience the pitch is good but not absolutely necessary--the rosin itself is stick-y.

I suspect too much tallow or beeswax. The only reason to use these products is to temper or soften the rosin so that it won't crumble. One of our erstwhile members even uses hard (hot melt) stitcher wax...just as it comes out of the package.

Also there are other ways of attaching a bristle to your taw which are much more secure. The way you describe is a fast way but not always reliable if your taw isn't really fine, your wax close to perfect and your wrapping technique even closer.

And when you're using old linen thread...which may have lost some integrity...it is much more probable that you'll lose the finest part of the taw when the thread wraps give out. Losing or breaking a taw is really frustrating...sometimes it takes nearly as much time to re-bristle as when you did it originally.

And FWIW, the thread you got on Ebay isn't "2 oz. shoe thread" but probably 2 ounces of #10 linen yarn. (Not a big deal but we had a recent discussion about thread designations and I thought this ought to be clarified.)

As for the wax...I'm guessing this is some old Jared Holt hand wax, not pitch (although it probably has pitch in it). It does get brittle over the years as the oil evaporates out of it. You could re-heat it with a couple of drops of cod oil or a little tiny bit of tallow--you'll have to experiment. But the end result, when cool, is not supposed to stick to your hand in casual handling. It only gets sticky through the heat generated by the friction of rubbing on the threads or when inseaming.

As far as that goes, 3 cord is too fine for inseaming...if that's what you're doing. 10 cord is more like it.
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#440 Post by tjburr » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:50 pm

You might try buying some pre-made coad if you can not find someone local to show you what it should look and act like. I believe Panhandle leather sells some but it is not in their catelog. Also Lisa Sorrell sells some on her Sorrel Notions page (I've bought some of this but I have not used it yet). You should be able to find both these with a google search, I am typing from a phone and do not have the links with me.

You might be able to make some to your perfect liking, and can customize to what you like best rather than these purchased mixes once you know what you are working towards, but having something to compare against might help.

Other than that, others like DW can provide much more experience....DW posted an excellent video on this site at one time showing his technique if you do not have a good example. I believe there are also some other how-to writeups here.

Terry

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#441 Post by dw » Sat May 28, 2016 10:44 am

Thought folks might be interested in this...if I understand correctly this is pretty much the traditional way to make waxed ends. here being demonstrated by The Musee de la Chaussure, in Lausanne Switzerland. And if I'm not mistaken run by Serge and Marquita Volken.

And FWIW, nearly identical to the way I was taught (and detailed in my book).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoBrQ0QKjBQ&feature=youtu.be
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#442 Post by dw » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:26 am

To illustrate the "skeining off" technique that I do when making lingels (waxed ends) and that is shown in the above video, Admin has added the ability of the CC to display YouTube videos:

Simply right click on the YT video you want to embed and select "Copy Video URL". then select the "video" formatting codebox above and when the code is copied to the editing window, paste the YouTube video url between the innermost brackets. (Hover over the codebox to see the syntax).

[BBvideo 560,340]https://youtu.be/eoBrQ0QKjBQ[/BBvideo]
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