Hand Wax / Coad

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#376 Post by fclasse » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:51 pm

D.A.,

The only reason I mention tar is because I've just about run out of my small supply of the most excellent Rausch Pitch =). I only add rosin and beeswax for my shoemaker's wax per your earlier recommendations, and I've found it to be quite suitable, even with the occasional need to be remelted and have rosin or beeswax added in for the season.

Regading the solid lump pitch, that's an excellent question to ask - if (when, hopefully!) I hear back from them, I'll certainly inquire.


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#377 Post by Arttu » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:27 am

I used liquid tar in fairly small amounts (maybe 1/12 parts), which made the natural colored wax brown, but not black. I had some carbon black (which is a natural black dye) so I added some to try it out. I used very little, maybe half a teaspoon for a wax lump the size of two fists. I have no idea it it changes the properties of the wax in the long term, but I can't feel a difference in any way now. Keep in mind, I'm still a beginner and this is my first time making wax.

I'm going to try boiling some pine tar into pitch this weekend, I'll report how it goes.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#378 Post by das » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:58 am

Francis,

I follow you now. Guess I was curious why Arttu was adding lampblack, etc. and if you were too.

BTW, curious... The upper you round closed (photo over on Marcell's Shoemaking Forum on FB) you closed the waxed-calf inside on the grain. Highly unusual 18thc, as are curved side-seams. Were you copying a particular antique done that way? Round closing was usually done on "wax" side (flesh), to leave the inside of the shoe perfectly smooth.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#379 Post by das » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:09 am

Arttu,

Thanks for explaining. Ideally you want the ball of wax to become a dark bronze color after taffy-pulling it to bleach the pitch out. I would stick to pitch, rosin and beeswax (oil or tallow) to be sure you come close to the time-tested traditional mixture. Not sure if carbon would hurt anything, but it might hinder the wax turning bronze, and staying the desirable amber color on the thread.

The petroleum, coal tar and bitumen-based waxes (e.g. Thermowax and Vestapesch brands) can be solid black color, but I think that's on account of the bitumen.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#380 Post by Arttu » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:45 am

I just boiled the tar down to pitch. 2 hours on low heat (barely boiling). I got about 800 grams of pitch out of 2 liters of tar. The resulting pitch is completely black (when pulled apart so that it forms strings, the color turns to an amber color). It's malleable in room temperature, but very sticky if you hold it too long. Outside (+3 celsius) it's hard, almost brittle.

Image

I'll ask hautaterva.net if they sell pitch ("piki" in Finnish), and if they don't, I might be able to buy some tar from them, boil it down to pitch and send it over to you, but I can't promise anything yet. I'm going to send the lump in the picture to lancepryor, who can try it out and tell you if it's any good (I can't tell as I've never used pitch for this purpose)

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#381 Post by das » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:34 am

Arttu,

Thanks, and for the photo. We tried boiling our Ausson's (Chinese) down, and it never got sold, just thicker.

Keep us posted, as Swedish pitch is no more,we may have to go for Finish pitch :thumb:

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#382 Post by lancepryor » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:41 am

Arttu:

That looks good. I think commercial pitch might be slightly harder than what you have -- the Raush pitch I've handled is, for all intents and purposes, solid and not very sticky at room or body temperature (DW or Al, please feel free to correct me here. I've not handled a lot of the Rausch stuff.) However, for making hand wax, it sounds like it should be excellent -- just a matter of adjusting the rosin/beeswax/pitch ratio to get the desired results.

800 grams out of about 2100 grams of pine tar (2000 milliliters at 1.05 specific gravity) implies a bit more than 50% reduction, so probably boiled off 1.25 - 1.5 liters of turpentine.

800 grams is nearly 2 pounds of the stuff (454 grams/pound). When I receive the pitch, I will take a crack at making some hand wax -- I will likely only use say 4 - 6 ounces of the pitch initially, and I would be happy to send some samples to those more experienced than I am to get their feedback as to the quality of the hand wax. Based on that feedback and subsequent fine-tuning, I might be able to make enough to share with others as well. 800 grams of pitch could yield anything from 1600 grams to 2400 grams of hand wax, i.e. 3.5 pounds to 5 pounds of hand wax, so that is quite a lot more than a lifetime supply for me.

On a related note, and as mentioned previously, I have used the Auson's Kiln Burned Pine Tar (#773) with some success. I found a mention of it here: http://www.maritime.org/conf/conf-kaye-tar.htm
which says "Auson also receives every year limited quantities of "peasant tar" produced in old fashioned dales. In Sweden, this tar is twice the price of the next lower grade, and it is not usually exported due to the domestic demand." This is the #773 product, which is imported by Noxudol. However, the Auson website and product pages do not indicate where the product is made. I think I inquired once with Auson about this but received no reply. Perhaps I shall inquire again.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#383 Post by fclasse » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:11 pm

Lance,

Definitely count me in! I'd also be curious to know how "smoke-y" the pitch smells like compared to the pitch that you made from the Auson's Kiln Burnt tar. As I recall, After wrapping the Rausch in about 3 different plastic bags, I could still smell that lovely campfire smell.

Of course, when I do a demonstration or am in a group of people working on shoes, I usually get about 75% of the group thrilled with the smell and the other 25% can't stand it. =)


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#384 Post by fclasse » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:04 pm

D.A.,

You asked: "You closed the waxed-calf inside on the grain. Highly unusual 18thc, as are curved side-seams. Were you copying a particular antique done that way?"

You found me a bit guilty of trying to take a shortcut =). At the time, two things played a role in my decision. First, I had looked at several photos of extant pieces and found that some were closed on the exterior of the upper, and some were closed on the interior, so it seemed that it might be done either way (doing a lot of 16th century repros had me leaning in that direction anyhow). The second was that when I visited Williamsburg several years ago, one of your journeymen (apprentices?), Mr. Brett Walker, was kind enough to gift me with one of his very old shoes which I proceeded to take apart carefully, document, and use as a model. Although he did mention that he would have done several things differently with what he knows now, that shoe was round closed on the inside with curved side seams, so I matched that cut and stitch pitch.

It was not until I'd finished closing both uppers that I found the thread of "Historical Techniques and material" in this forum which discusses this issue explicitly (and Rees' commentary) - not sure how could I have missed it all this time!


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#385 Post by fclasse » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:09 pm

Arttu wrote:I'll ask hautaterva.net if they sell pitch ("piki" in Finnish), and if they don't, I might be able to buy some tar from them, boil it down to pitch and send it over to you, but I can't promise anything yet. I'm going to send the lump in the picture to lancepryor, who can try it out and tell you if it's any good (I can't tell as I've never used pitch for this purpose)
Arttu,

Thank you so much for the help - it is a bit exciting to possibly have a source for good quality pitch!


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#386 Post by das » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:17 pm

Francis,

Ah, it makes sense now. Was curious if you'd found an 18thc inside (grain) closed waxed calf shoe with a curved side-seam someplace you were copying.

Back in the 1980s (long before Brett started shoes) someone in the upper Midwest published a Voyageur sketchbook for reenactors, misleadingly stating that "French" (Canadian) shoes typically had a curved side seam, rather than a dog-leg. After some digging I found this was being promoted by a shoemaker who simply hadn't figured out how to drop a stitch on the quarter and close around the corner of the dog-leg. I think I can count all the surviving examples of mid-18th men's shoes with curved side seams on one hand with fingers left over, and interestingly most of them are from English/Anglo-Ameican sites, not "French".

Hoped you'd found another one was all...

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#387 Post by dw » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:56 pm

Back in the early sections of this thread (Page 6? or maybe a little before?) someone ...might have been me...contacted a company--GotGrit(?)--about pitch and sample were sent out. The owner even posted here for a while, describing his products.

I don't know what the consensus was ...I have a lifetime supply of Rausch...but Rick Roman ordered some of it in the #73 and made several batches of hand wax that seemed to be pretty good.

I think the GotGrit link was domestic. And the owner assured me that it was real pine tar pitch.

Any reason this isn't better than boiling down pine tar?
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#388 Post by amuckart » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:06 pm

That was Gugolz optical lapping pitch. I got a couple of kilos of it. It's not too bad but I never quite got it right when trying to make hand wax out of it.

The MSDS PDF says the hazardous ingredient is kolophonium which is German for rosin, so it is pine based but I don't know what the black is. Whatever it is it's obviously insufficiently hazardous to warrant a mention on the MSDS though.

I have boiled down Stockholm Tar for pitch before. It's an unbelievably messy process. I boiled it down until there was thick brown smoke which condensed out as tarry deposits all over anything it touched. I got some good pitch out of it though and made some Ok black hand wax. It was black though, not bronze and a bit too flaky. I also found that the mess it made was a lot more noticeable than my usual wax which is a 2:1 mix of pine rosin and beeswax with no added oils. It's not necessarily any more messy, it's just that the black shows up more.

The other thing I've found since I've been too ill to make shoes is that if your pitch is a bit too soft, just leave it alone for about 3 years and it'll harden up nicely. Not quick, but it does seem to work.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#389 Post by lancepryor » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:02 am

dw wrote:Back in the early sections of this thread (Page 6? or maybe a little before?) someone ...might have been me...contacted a company--GotGrit(?)--about pitch and sample were sent out. The owner even posted here for a while, describing his products.

I don't know what the consensus was ...I have a lifetime supply of Rausch...but Rick Roman ordered some of it in the #73 and made several batches of hand wax that seemed to be pretty good.

I think the GotGrit link was domestic. And the owner assured me that it was real pine tar pitch.

Any reason this isn't better than boiling down pine tar?
I think you are referring to the Gugolz pitch. Using the Gugolz that I bought, I had trouble making a wax that wouldn't flake off the thread, even though it got quite soft when I burnished it in. It did give a very good 'lock' on the threads, but I just wasn't happy with the wax. I guess I could try again, since one slightly less than successful effort doesn't prove anything. However, I have had better success with the homemade pitch I made from the Auson's Kiln Burned Pine Tar, as well as some Rausch pitch I managed to get ahold of. I guess my sentiment is to continue down the path that has been more successful for me, but that is not to say that the Gugolz wouldn't/couldn't make a good or even great wax.

Also, if I make pitch from a known source of pine tar, that gives me a bit more comfort than using a pitch about which I know very little. Furthermore, if the pine tar is from a European kiln, the trees are the historically correct species, whereas the Chinese pine tar, which I am guessing is the source of the base product for the Gulgolz (based on what Al has written), comes from different species of trees and is made via a different process than traditional pine tar and pitch. The Gugolz is made "from proprietary pine derivatives," which doesn't tell me much about it.

Maybe someday somebody will do a test of various pitches, including 'homemade' vs the Gugolz, but that is a lot of work.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#390 Post by fclasse » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:35 pm

D.A.,

Ah, good to know. I will certainly keep my eyes open - certainly, the few extant pieces that I've looked at in person and all the pictures I have do seem to show dog-leg seams, and I plan to update my patterns accordingly!


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#391 Post by das » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:19 am

Francis,

If you do spot some curved side seams 18thc, please let me know.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#392 Post by dw » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:47 am

Lance,

Thanks for the reply...

As I said, I have a lifetime supply of Rausch pitch. I don't know what kind of tree it was made from but some sort of Southern Pine, I suppose, since Rausch was in Louisiana. I talked to the owner there years ago and he described the entire process. I posted it on the CC but I'm not sure where it is anymore...maybe the old archive?

The owner also told me the difference in the way they made the pitch and the way they made rosin. IIRC, the rosin is not burned from the wood the way the pitch is.

In any case Rausch only made three grades of pitch at that time and the owner told me that the only difference was the amount of turp that had been, or not been, driven off.

Which led me to believe that it was what you added to the pitch that made it a good handwax...not what the hardness was. Seems like if you cooked your handwax slowly you could always add a little turp somewhere in the process to make up for the lack of hardness in the original pitch.

??

When I bought my pitch from Rausch I got the medium grade, as I recall.

How the source tree would affect the resulting hand wax I don't know but I would think that these differences would have to be limited to things like aromatics rather than the actual quality of the pitch. Again, I don't know...just speculating.

That said, the Gugolz samples I got looked pretty good to me. Unfortunately, I didn't get enough to experiment with but if you're adding rosin and perhaps some beeswax and / or an oil such as linseed or cod oil you have the ability to adjust the temper, in my experience.

One more thought that may or may not be significant--Al told me once upon a time that wax flaking off the thread was common. IIRC, he said you needed to have a small ball of wax on your bench when inseaming and periodically to refresh the wax on your threads.

[If there's anyone who is "particular" about the grade and quality of the pitch as well as the details of the recipe, it's DAS...so that that for what it's worth.]
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#393 Post by lancepryor » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:47 am

DW:

I think what you've written makes a lot of sense. I think rosin is similar to what you can scrape off the outside of pine trees that are 'oozing.' Hence, it's not from the same process that generates pine tar or pitch, though it must have many of the same constituent parts.

I would think adding turpentine to a hand wax would make it softer, not harder. It is my interpretation of what I've read that pitch is a 'solid' -- not technically a solid, but close enough -- that is made either: a. by boiling off much of the turpentine from pine tar, leaving behind various resins and other substances; or, b. letting the product of the kilns settle/separate, and the resultant thickest stuff at the bottom would be pitch (?); and/or c. starting with b and then boiling off additional turpentine.

Yes, I know that hand wax can generate 'dandruff' or 'crumbs,' and that the thread may need the occasional re-waxing. My problem with the Gugolz-based wax I made was that virtually all the wax stripped off after only one or two stitches. That hasn't been my experience with other waxes. Again, I can't say it wasn't due to an improper ratio of pitch/rosin/wax, rather than the Gugolz itself. I just haven't had a need or a motivation to try cooking up another batch of the Gugolz based stuff, as I've found more success with the other approaches. Still, someday that might change.

I would suggest the quality of the hand wax is a function of achieving the proper ratios of ingredients plus the quality of the ingredients themselves. Regarding the quality of the pitch, the qualities I am looking for are stickiness plus a reasonable range of pliability. I want the stickiness for obvious reasons. The 'pliability' means that the wax will stay soft enough, but not too soft, so that it sticks to the threads when sewing even though the wax is cool and hence firm. I don't know how to judge the inherent quality of a pitch aside from making some wax and seeing how it performs, nor do I really know what type of tree or production process yields the 'best' pitch for wax making purposes. I guess I am just hoping that the historical production process (kiln burning) makes a highly adequate product, since it clearly resulted in pitch that served our forebears well. Not to say other production processes couldn't produce as good, or even better, products for our purposes. Also, again, my failure with the Gugolz might have been due to something other that the Gugolz itself, but I just don't know without further experimentation.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#394 Post by dw » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:48 pm

Lance,

You're right. I "misspoke." I meant to say that adding turp would make the wax softer. After all the more that is boiled off the harder it gets.

Anyway, I wish I had tried a kilo of the Gugolz just to experiment with. But if it's any consolation, the Rausch I have will strip off the tread, too, if the temper isn't right. Sometimes I'll burnish a couple of drops of cod oil into the waxed thread and store it in a plastic bag until I'm ready to use it. That seems to help. It helps a lot if you aren't going to use the thread for a week or so, too.

Al said something way way back in 2002 about when you're taffy pulling the wax it should be able to support itself in long thin filaments. If it can't it's too brittle, if it droops severely it's too soft.

And FWIW, Al also said in 2002 that if crumbs are being stripped off your thread as it passes through the hole, there's not enough pitch in the wax.

That's another good thing about Teklon...the wax is on the thread only to seal the hole/stitch. It's not there to immunize the thread against wee beasties. It can be varying degrees of soft...even stick to your fingers soft and it will still do its work.
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#395 Post by fclasse » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:20 pm

Al,

Most definitely! I'll keep it in mind for future research on 18th C. portraits and extant pieces.


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#396 Post by fclasse » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:38 pm

DW, Lance,

I've also found that if your stitching cords are too cold, then the wax can flake, but it is more like dust than chunks of wax. Once I've sat on the cords for a few minutes, they warm up, and the friction of sewing keeps the threads plenty warm.


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#397 Post by fclasse » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:25 pm

D.A.,

I was going through Goubitz's 'Stepping Through Time' last night looking for something, and found that he has a number of curved side seams on separate quarter pieces and complete shoes that he has listed as 18th century. To me, most of them read late 1600s or early 1700s based on the use of laces and small single tyne stud/anchor/loop chape buckles. From the construction diagrams, the assembly also seems to be of earlier make as well (compared to later 18th). He goes so far as to say that curved and diagonal seams are typical of the 18th century (Fig 22a, pg287), but that could be a bit of generalization. I'd post links to scans, but don't want to violate copyright (not sure if that's an issue or not).

Fig 16, pg286 (lace tie)
Fig 22a, pg287 (lace tie)
Fig 3, pg291 (stud chape)
Fig 5b, pg292 (anchor chape)
Fig 11, pg293 (loop chape)
Fig 16a, pg294 (anchor chape)
Fig 16c, pg295 (anchor chape)


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#398 Post by das » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:50 pm

Francis,

Bear in mind that Olaf was working with Dutch finds. Yes, he found curved side-seams (there), but they are pretty darn rare in England or North Am. in the archaeological record (so far). The one thing that it took a while to sink into my head, studying archaeological shoes here and abroad, was, there were distinctive regional tastes and styles. If you followed Goubitz religiously,style wise, you'd be making some pretty Dutchy-looking shoes IOW, that look "foreign" compared to, say, English or early Am. styles.

Fair to say, men's shoes with curved side-seams were more popular with the Dutch than English, based on archaeology (and art history).

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#399 Post by fclasse » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:48 pm

D.A.,

Location, location, location! It makes all of the difference - thanks for the point of clarity. I'll have to keep that in mind for future repros and try and be consistent in technique as well as locale.


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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#400 Post by Janne Melkersson » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:28 pm

Francis, I just got some samples of pitch from a company in Germany

http://www.pechpiering.de/

Schusterpech PP 75 TSWZ W and WW is what I got. The WW is harder. It can be used as it is or you can melt it and add some softening stuff if you like. It is made of oak tree which makes for a darker pitch then pine tree. However, if you like a black tread this is great stuff.

Janne

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