Hand Wax / Coad

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homeboy
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#351 Post by homeboy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:28 am

Courtney,

Well, I don't know. Like I said, the hemp is new to me. I'll let you know when the dust settles.

As for metal bristles........not for me. Not until they quit making fishing line. Dee-Dubb's split nylon bristle technique is so trustworthy and eloquent. Doesn't take much time at all to attach either.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#352 Post by das » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:10 am

All,

Sorry, crazy week here--little keyboard-time.

DW, samples I just sent you were "Real Stuff" (thin and less viscous) good to try painting on felt, and a tiny jar of genuine old "Stockholm Tar" (thicker nicer smelling for reference). The later was not from Auson, but from a UK veterinarian supply in the '90s, but smells the closest to the genuine old Swedish pitch. Auson products are all from China now, as there is no more destructive turpentine distilling in Sweden (or Scandinavia). The nice Chinese fellow (Mr.Wong?) at Auson explained that the "pine" family of trees used in China differ from those in N. Europe, hence the different consistency and smell. IOW the old stuff is simply no more. Auson currently sells a solid "pitch" too, and we've tried it. It's very soft, coarse and grainy with tons of impurities,, solids, "seeds and stems", and smells nothing like the old Swedish pitch.

As I got it from Rausch, the chunk "pine pitch" we loved was made up, mixed from "X" parts pine tar (aromatic/softener), and "Y" parts pine rosin. It was not cooked-down tar only, rather a tar and rosin blend. I've tried six ways for Sunday to get the tar to thicken on its own. In the end I just add it to chunk rosin and make my own "pitch" like Rausch described.

Jake, if your wax has that much "tack", that your sewing threads seize-up if you don't keep them moving briskly, I'd say it's just about perfect. Shoemakers' wax is an adhesive--not a lubricant. If you experience too much "tack", rub a light swipe of beeswax over your waxed-end so they won't bind mid-stitch. As you see/feel the wax draining off your thread as you sew, re-wax it every so often to keep it in the condition it was when you started (see Rees:1813).

Hemp vs. Flax--Hemp yarn was made from the hemp plant (cannabis) and flax from the flax plant--two different plants, two different fibers. Hemp was prized for millennia for nautical rope-making, sailcloth and canvas-weaving, shoe thread, etc. because it would not rot or degrade easily when wet. Flax, a much smoother fiber, looked nicer, but was not as durable. Sometime in the mid 20thc genuine hemp shoe thread began to go out of production, and coarse, unbleached (thus stronger) flax was re-named "hemp". The bleached white (thus weakened) flax was sold as "flax" or "linen" thread, the unbleached as "hemp".

With the current resurgence in real hemp for "green" textiles, we've been able to get some real hemp yarn for making threads from Eastern European sources, but like all fibers it's now processed on cotton machinery, and the long fiber staples (whence its inherent strength) are broken off too short, so it's still not quite "right", but better than flax/linen yarns when broken that short. We did find a woman to hand-spin us some long-staple hemp fiber yarn to test. It was around $30 for a 2 oz ball, but man alive is it strong.

Frank Jones might know.... years ago in the UK they made and sold nylon "bristles", 24 in a waxed paper packet. These were stiffer than soft ol' fishing line, and closer to 7"-8" long like real bristle. The end for wrapping was corrugated to better grip the taw of the thread. They are reusable (up to a point), and I'm still using ones I bought in the '80s-'90s. Tried various "wire" alternatives and didn't care for them. But, latest batch of real black 8" bristles from India we got last month were nigh on to $250 per kilo landed--so pretty much "museum demo use only" at that price, like so many other common (once) essentials for traditional shoe/bootmaking. Like it or not, what we're each doing, in our own school/genre, is becoming more "historical", experimental archaeology than anything else. Soon we can all be stuffed and mounted in a museum Image

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#353 Post by homeboy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:51 am

Martha,

Whew! Wish I just knew what you have forgot! Thanks for chimming in.

I had already planned NOT to boil off the Real Stuff, but attempt to make our "old-timey" pitch. As I have said, "I'll be back!"

Thanks for the input!

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#354 Post by gshoes » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:31 am

Jake,

Whoops? What did I miss? Did Martha say that we should NOT be boiling off the real stuff?

geri

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#355 Post by homeboy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:40 am

Geri,

I don't believe he ever really said. I was thinking I would start from there (no boil-off). This process will probably take me several attempts.

Take care!

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#356 Post by dw » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:12 am

Al,

Oh, somehow I got the impression that the small sample was Auson. No matter, thanks in any event.

I have to say that I dislike the smell of the Real Stuff and as you say it is thin.

The pine tar you sent me in the small jar leaves a rather thick, black and viscous coating on the felt even when thinned 1:1 with turpentine. The residue of the Real Stuff, thinned 1:1 is almost greasy and only marginally brown.

My quandary now is whether to proceed with my homemade felted tar experiments. I was all set to order some felt and a 3 litre can of the dark Auson. But with the small sample you sent me being not-Auson, I hesitate. I don't want to get invested that heavily in a product that is not significantly different than the Real Stuff.

Anyone seen or used the Auson Dark Pine Tar?

As for the Rausch Naval Yards pitch...I called and talked to the owner at one point and I took notes as he told me about the process they went through to make their various grades (stiffnesses) of pitch. I even wrote out my notes and posted it on the Forum (the old Forum) in response to similar questions about it. I have lost or secreted away (where even I cannot find them)those notes to my deep regret.

However, as I recall it, it was not a "recombinate" process. As I recall it, the pitch was derived directly from the burning/heat reducing procedures and the grades were achieved simply by how much turpentine was burnt off.

I would be interested in real hemp yarn myownself. I got some that was touted as real hemp from Goetz some years ago and found it to be so coarsely spun that I could not rub a ball of hand wax against it without literally tearing it apart.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#357 Post by lancepryor » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:58 am

DW:

You might try the Horse Health brand pine tar. It is quite thick, sort of a peanut butter consistency. Ted says it may be from Sweden -- he say he spoke at some point with the owner, who said quite a while ago he ordered a large quantity from Sweden and has been trying to work his way through it. If nothing else, the price is right -- under $10 for a quart. It has a slightly smokey odor. The Auson Kiln Burned stuff is thinner and has a very smokey aroma.

Lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#358 Post by homeboy » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:50 am

Geri,

Finally got around to spending some time in the shop.

I love your wax! I think you did a splendid job!

Your recipe would be considered a "winter" wax. My shop is around 65 degrees. I could easily indent the wax with my fingernail. The wax coated dacron with a few strokes. Of course it coated linen superbly. It reminded me of "my-damn-near-perfect" batch many years ago. It was messy and sticky! Exactly how it should be, as described by Dee-Dubb and Al.

I received my gal of "Real Stuff" yesterday. Now my problem is how to proceed. I "WAS" going to try to make some pitch, but now I'm considering trying to duplicate Geri's recipe. The problem is how much did she reduce the "Real Stuff".

Will keep you informed.

Once again Geri.......GREAT JOB!

Jake

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#359 Post by fclasse » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:15 pm

Jake,

Looking forward to hearing your progress. As I suspect that I will run out of my limited supply of "olde" pitch in a year or two, I'll be interested to hear about alternatives.

Also, if you're keen on some actual boar bristles to go with your authentic linen/help and wax, let me know - I'm happy to play the bristle pusher on the Colloquy =)


Francis

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#360 Post by homeboy » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:00 pm

Francis,

Nice of you to offer. I'll keep it in mind.

Thanks! Jake

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#361 Post by tjburr » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:30 pm

Check out this recipe for pine pitch glue. Not sure I would want to mix moose dung with my coadImage

making pitch glue

Terry

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#362 Post by dw » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:48 am

BTW, I was just talking to a very famous and highly regarded shoemaker (I've been told that June Swann considers him among the very best working) in Norway, and he told me he uses the white dacron from the US for inseaming...maybe Teklon.Image

Image

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#363 Post by athan_chilton » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:59 am

I've got this box of something sold as "stitching wax", not sure now where it's from--EC or Panhandle, I think. It's very hard, and a golden color. Tried using it, but it doesn't seem to really coat the thread (Teklon) very well.

So, can I melt this stuff, and add pitch or rosin or oil or beeswax to it to make it soft and sticky? I've got the very last of the good wax sample Geri made & sent me, to compare to, but being unsure what this golden stuff is, I'm not sure where to start. Or if I should just start from scratch and make my own coad altogether?

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#364 Post by sorrell » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:05 am

Panhandle sells a golden hand wax that they make themselves. I can tell that occasionally they change ingredient ratios because sometimes it's better than other times. The last batch I got from them had too much rosin. I haven't tried it, but I bet it would be perfect if you melted it down and added just a bit of beeswax.

Lisa

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#365 Post by janne_melkersson » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:56 pm

Recently I made some pitch by cocking/reducing tar. It was cocking for one hour and the result after cooling was surprisingly good. The pitch was not to brittle and mixed with rosin and beeswax it made a nice wax.
To get the best quality I used a light colored tar. The lighter color of the tar the better quality.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#366 Post by dai » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:00 am

Jan, thank you for this explanation. Please say what kind of tar: stockholm tar, bitumen, something else?

You say on cooling it was not brittle. What was it like then, butter, chocolate, soft toffee ... so as to know when cooking is completed.

Light coloured tar? Where to you get this from?

I have reduced stockholm tar until brittle on cooling then made wax with it, and rosin and tallow. This was satisfactory. Using bitumen (some types of optical lens grinders, or road menders tar) with resin and tallow had an unpleasant feel to it and I didn't go on with using it, though it may have been ok for it's purpose.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#367 Post by janne_melkersson » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:05 am

David,
the tar I used was;

SUPERIOR QUAL PILE BURNED TAR, 1 LITRE
Genuine peasant made pine stump tar, yellowish to brown-yellowish.

Which is the finest quality. Only pine tar should be used no oil tar. You find it at http://www.claessons.com/english/produkter_list.asp?do=list&category=&sokord=

Stockholm tar used to be the same quality but I don't know about that today.

The pitch was not soft it was more like solid. I could not brake it by hand

(Message edited by janne melkersson on March 12, 2013)

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#368 Post by lancepryor » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:55 am

David:

While not Janne, I have done the same, using the Auson's Kiln Burned Pined Tar (available in the USA from Noxudol direct from them or from Amazon.com). The hand wax I have made is pretty darned good from my point of view.

'Cooking' the pine tar drives off the turpentine. I don't think there is a point when the pitch is 'done'; the pitch will simply get thicker and thicker/harder as more of the turps is boiled off. I have been told that boiling the pine tar at too high a temperature (above 325 degrees) will cause the residual solids to oxidize/burn, leaving 'clinker'/ash in the pitch. I cooked my pine tar in a small electic skillet (outdoors!) at a reasonable boil, but don't know what temperature it was. IIRC, I probably boiled the stuff for an hour. Be careful not to get it to too high a temp, for you could get spontaneous combustion. Probably smart to have a fire extinguisher handy, and to make sure where you are cooking it is a fair distance from any structure in case it ignites. The stuff smells VERY smoky, so whatever you're wearing will definitely smell strongly of smoke. I think the consistency I achieved was probably like hard toffee. Real pitch is the slowest flowing liquid in the world (apparently it is considered a liquid due to its physical characteristics), feeling pretty hard at room temperatures, so I was shooting for a similar consistency. When hot, the stuff is still pretty thin, so you need to take a little sample and let it cool to check its consistency.

I wonder where the Claesson's product comes from? Al Suguto has suggested that there is no remaining Scandanavian production of pine tar in commercial quantities, and that it all comes from China. If so, Claesson may well source theirs from the same place as Auson. Would be interesting to know.

I've also found this company in Finland:
http://www.hautaterva.net/

They do appear to make their pine tar in Finland, as they state their pine stumps come from government managed land. I never got a reply to an inquiry I placed a couple of years ago; perhaps someone else can have better luck.

Lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#369 Post by wsbailey » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:15 am

Here is a link to a US source for "light" pine tar:

http://www.solventfreepaint.com/pine-tar.htm

Bill

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#370 Post by fclasse » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:48 pm

I just got a sample of the "Real Stuff" and Auson's Kiln Burned Pine Tar. The Auson's smells more smoke-y to me, and the Real Stuff smells more "chemical-y," for lack of a better term. I'll try and get some samples of the Claessons as well as the Hautaterva tars and try and compare. I mixed up a small ball of wax with the "Real Stuff" and it seems to work fine, but I really don't care for the smell.


Francis

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#371 Post by lancepryor » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:38 pm

Francis:

Please let us know if you succeed in getting some of the stuff from Finland. As noted above, I tried to get information from them, but they never responded to my inquiry.

The Auson's stuff sure smells smoky. When I have made it up into hand wax, it is darker/more black than wax I have made from the Rausch pitch, which has more of the classic amber coloration. I don't know if that is because I cooked the Auson's at too high a temperature, or it is just a characteristic of the Auson's pine tar itself. Still, the resulting wax works pretty well, if you can get the right ratio of the various constituent parts.

Lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#372 Post by Arttu » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:10 am

I'm a beginner hobby shoemaker from Finland and I just made my first batch of wax. I used pine rosin, beeswax, a bit of paraffin, genuine Finnish pine pitch/tar (whatever you call it) and carbon black dye for the black wax. The pine tar was made in a kiln at a small country fair -type of an event with old methods for show, but you could also buy the stuff afterwards. It was made 9 years ago, but it's still fine, albeit a little thicker than it used to be.

I first made a small wax ball without the tar, and then a few more, increasing the amount of tar each time. The wax without tar is much more brittle and less sticky than the ones with tar. In my very limited experience, the wax with the most tar (still a fairly small amount, maybe 1-2/15 parts of the wax) is the best. It's hard when you hit it with a hammer, but when you press in with your finger, it gives. When applied to a thread, it doesn't flake off, even in cold temperatures. In my opinion, the smell of the finished wax is really nice, but then again pine tar is somewhat of a national pride, so I've grown up surrounded by tar flavored candies, soaps, alcohol etc.

I still have a few litres of the tar left, and if someone really wants to try it out, I can send some for the price of shipping (I'm not sure about the laws of sending chemicals overseas, though).

Here are some commercial tar products made and sold in Finland. All claim to be finnish 100% genuine kiln-made pine tar, but nowadays you can never be sure. These are all liquid ones, made for protecting wood (boats etc.). If you want to do your own research, the words you should use for searching are "terva" (tar) and "hautaterva" (kiln-tar).


http://www.uula.fi/fi/muut-tuotteet/muut/146-hautaterva

http://www.perinnetaito.fi/tuotteet.html?id=3/10

http://www.taloon.com/hautaterva-elixi- ... Group=5381

http://www.antiikkiverstas.com/verkkokauppa/hautaterva

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#373 Post by Arttu » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:42 am

Lance, could you pm me your email, it seems that as a new member, I can't send private messages yet.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#374 Post by fclasse » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:25 pm

Arttu,

Thank you very much for information! I noticed that you added carbon black to your wax to make it black. Most of the tar we get is already dark, and I undertand that when it is darker, it smells more strongly of campfires and smoke (which is a pleasing scent). Can you help clarify the need for carbon black?

As you might have read in the past, there are a couple of places I am trying to investigate like Claessons (http://www.claessons.com/english/produk ... category=2) and Hautaterva.net (http://www.hautaterva.net/tuotteet/) to get a good, smoky smelling tar good for coad, but I am still waiting for some responses. Do you have any opinions on the Hautaterva.net site?


Francis

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#375 Post by das » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:50 pm

Arttu and Francis,

Is there some tradition in your areas behind you adding all these things like lamp-back (carbon)? They may affect the performance of the wax. Likewise, are you accustomed to using "tar" as opposed to the chunk pine-pitch for wax? I understand tar for painting ships' timbers and ropes, but pitch was also used in various formulations/hardnesses to caulk the cracks in the decks with oakum. If these pine-derived traditional wooden boat building supplies are being made still, do inquire with these suppliers about solid chunk pine-tar-pitch--that's the traditional ingredient in shoemakers' wax rather than semi-liquid tar.

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