Hand Wax / Coad

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#326 Post by fclasse » Wed May 11, 2011 10:31 am

Lance,

Thanks for the comments! I haven't yet stitched with these ends, which will be the real test, but I checked the consistency of the coad this morning, and it was actually much less sticky than the night before. I suspect that it was also about ten degrees F cooler at my place in the morning than it was when I was making them the night before. Maybe it's all right after all, even if it's not quite as golden bronze as it ought to be.

Francis

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#327 Post by fclasse » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:59 am

Just as an update for people who are keeping track, the wax is working well, but I suspect it is more of a summer wax. It's quite firm at room temperature (here in California) and in order to get it more usable I need to put it in front of the vent of my laptop for a couple of minutes =) Otherwise, it seems to work fine - no flaking while I'm inseaming or closing, and seems to form a very solid locked stitch when pulled tight.

Francis

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#328 Post by homeboy » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:34 am

Geraldine,

Are you happy with the coad you mixed up with "Real Stuff"? I ordered a gallon the other day and plan on making up a batch specifically for dacron. I want it STICKY!

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#329 Post by gshoes » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:15 am

Jake,

I am happy with the coad made with the real stuff. It is very sticky. I am using linen though so I have no clue as to how it will work with dacron. Send me your address and I will mail you a ball to try.

Geri

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#330 Post by homeboy » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:55 am

Geri,

You are a Sweetheart!

Jake Dobbins
1002 Sunset Valley Dr
Mountain View, AR 72560

I don't care what Dee-Dubb says about you, I think you are Grand! (wink)

I'll send some back to you when I'm through.
Thanks!

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#331 Post by homeboy » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:27 am

Geri,

Since you gave us your proportions, this will give me a starting point on what I may adjust, if anything.

I'll report back.......

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#332 Post by gshoes » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:34 am

If I were to make another batch I would have boiled the Real stuff longer.

Dee Dub is free to say what he wishes about me on this forum. But I just dare him to come to Illinois and say it to my face.

I might just hide his car keys until I got my own private Cordwainer lesson from him. The dog is welcomed too.

Geri

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#333 Post by dw » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:52 am

Jake, Geri,

Why, may I ask, did you choose to use The Real Stuff as opposed to the Swedish Auson pine tar?

The Real Stuff is more expensive. For one thing.

But the Real Stuff is "kiln burnt" and the Auson is not. From what I understand there is a difference in the percentage of solids--resin or pitch--between the Real Stuff and the blacker Auson. Did that factor into your decision?

What kind of consistency were you looking for when you boiled the pine tar down? I take you did that first and then added the remaining ingredients.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#334 Post by gshoes » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:03 am

DW,

I boiled down the "real stuff" first before adding the other ingredients. What I was looking for was just a reduction in total volume and a thicker consistency. I do think that I should have boiled it longer.

I had not considered Swedish Auson Pine Tar mostly because this little experience has head my head spinning. I was just hoping that this would work and it is working better than my last try. I am eager to see how Jake finds it and how he can make it better.

geri

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#335 Post by lancepryor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:55 pm

DW:

I think the Real Stuff is less expensive than the Auson's, at least what I bought. I bought the 'Kiln Burned Pine Tar' from Auson.

I see that the Real Stuff is advertised (on the Product Line page) as made in Sweden; that is surprising to me, given what Al has learned - i.e. that it is pretty much all made in China these days.

I've had some decent reports on the 'Horse Health' brand, which is considerably cheaper than either of the foregoing.


Lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#336 Post by homeboy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:42 pm

Dee-Dubb,

Just following Martha's orders! Honestly, I wasn't aware of the Auson Pine Tar. My research on the web produced very little leads. Al suggested "Real Stuff" on a previous post and I was able to order it on-line, so I went with it. I'll let everyone know how it ends up after my cook-off.

I'm also interested in using some hemp for inseaming. Guess I'll buy the 20 lb. twine size and make my own, unless someone has a better solution.

Dee-Dubb, I just miss the tack-i-ness of our tapers we used to use. I enjoyed watching that black wax fill up my awl holes while pulling the tapers. I can remember if I stopped mid-stream for any length of time, I had to really "pop" it loose to start again. I ain't for sure if we aren't sliding down a slippery slope, if you know what I mean.

Guess I miss the old days.....

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#337 Post by dw » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:32 pm

Lance,

I suppose there are differing prices from different sources but I have this link for Real Stuff:

http://www.tarsmell.com/tar.html

and this link for the Auson:

http://www.solventfreepaint.com/pine-tar.htm

Unless my math is worse than I thought, .85 gallon of Auson dark Pine tar at $44.00 is considerably less than a full gallon (only 15% more) of Real Stuff at $85.00.

However, what I was really interested in is Auson's description of Kiln Burnt Pine tar, as opposed to their dark Pine Tar. The kiln burnt supposedly has more resin and less pitch and is better for medical and veterinary purposes. Whereas the stress is on wood and rope preservation with the Auson dark Pine Tar.

Whether the same characteristics apply to the Real Stuff, I don't know. But how more or less resin, or more or less pitch, would affect the making of hand wax...or my experiments with homemade tarred felt...is the real question here, I think. At least for me.

I recently received some of each--Real Stuff and Auson's Dark Pine Tar. Al Saguto recommended the Auson in preference to the Real Stuff. And I have to say that not only do I like the smell of the Auson better (the real Stuff smells too creosote-y), for my tarred felt experiments the Real Stuff is markedly inferior.

Jake,

Of course, the hand wax we made was comprised of solid pitch (which came from Rausch Naval Yards...now defunct), rosin and beeswax or, alternatively, a little cod oil. I think the pitch is a key ingredient in that tackiness.

But I have to say that boiling down pine tar to get pitch is a rough old row to hoe. And if you get a greater proportion of resin (rosin?) and then add more rosin...I think you might well eliminate the pine tar altogether.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#338 Post by dearbone » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:37 pm

Deleted by Admin...

Reason--prices may not be quoted if they refer to personal profits or sales. This rule is stated explicitly in the Forum Guidelines.

(Message edited by admin on November 30, 2011)

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#339 Post by gshoes » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:32 pm

Nassar,

Do you use hemp and if so and not then why?

Geri

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#340 Post by lancepryor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:39 pm

DW:

Indeed; I paid close to the gallon price of the regular Auson for a liter of the kiln burned pine tar.

Interesting comments/insights into the various Auson products. My thinking was that I wanted to get a kiln-burned product, which is traditional, vs. what I presume to be a more modern process (either steam distillation or production of charcoal).

I've wondered about the Auson statement 'high in resin and low in pitch' before. That simply puzzled me -- I don't know, nor have I been able to find, a chemical definition of pitch, and I certainly assumed that the traditional pitch had to contain alot of resin. Thus, my conclusion, perhaps erroneous, was that the 'pitch' they reference is something different from the 'pitch' we talk about. I just don't see how the traditional pine tar/pitch, made from tree stumps, etc., wouldn't have contained lots of resin and various other chemicals. I don't think they did a further chemical distillation of the remnants after the turpentine was distilled.

This article:
www.natmus.dk/cons/lab/tjaere/tjaere.pdf
has a chemical breakdown of the chemical contents of a traditional kiln-burned pine tar -- nowhere is 'pitch' listed, although obviously 'pitch' is in there; my conclusion is that our 'pitch' is a combination of a bunch of different chemicals. (Anyone out there have a chemistry degree?)

Here is a definition/description of turpentine I found: 1. Turpentines: A large group of oleoresins from gymnospermous trees. Raw or crude turpentine is essentially the sticky sap or pitch from coniferous trees. In the U.S., raw turpentine is largely derived from southeastern pines, including longleaf pine (Pinus palustris) and slash pine (P. elliotti) grown in large plantations. Crude turpentine is distilled in order to separate the volatile essential oils called "spirits" from the nonvolatile diterpene residue called rosin. Spirits of turpentine are used in thinners and other organic solvents, while rosin is used in the manufacture of varnishes and oil base paints (and for violin bows and baseball pitchers). Oil base paints also contain unsaturated drying oils, such as castor, tung and linseed oils. The settlement of North America was partially due to England's desire to rid herself of dependence on Scandinavian sources of resin, since the pitch was used to caulk ships and waterproof the rigging. Source: http://waynesword.palomar.edu/chemid1.htm#resins

And:
Tar, a complex combination distillate containing thousands of substances (one estimate is up to 8000-15000 substances), produced by the high temperature carbonization of pine wood in anoxic conditions (dry distillation). It consists primarily of aromatic hydrocarbons, tar acids and tar bases (Simomaa et. al 2000, Lehtonen & Hotti 2001, Egenberg 2003). Components of tar vary according to the pyrolytic process (e.g. method, duration, temperature) and origin of the wood (e.g. age of pine trees, type of soil and moisture conditions during tree growth). The choice of wood, design of kiln, burning and collection of the tar can vary from burning to burning. Only stumps and roots of pine can be used for traditional production of pine tar.
Wood cellulose creates at 240-375 oC aliphatic hydrocarbons such as fats and their esters and

Main components of traditional kiln made pine tar:
- resin acids and aldehydes (e.g. dehydroabietic acid, abietic acid, palustric acid, pimaric acid) 19% w/w
- decarboxylated resin acids and alkylphenantrenes (e.g. retene) 7.5-9.5% w/w
- fatty acids (mainly C14-18) 8% w/w
- phenols (e.g. methyl- and ethylguaiacol, guaiacol, cresols, phenol) <5% w/w
- monoterpenoids (e.g. alfa-pinene, 3-carene, limonene, camphene) <5% w/w

from: www.klif.no/nyheter/.../essential_use_form_pinetar_nor_final.pdf


Whew....

Lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#341 Post by lancepryor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:52 pm

Jake:

A couple of comments.

First, when the traditional guys referred to 'hemp,' I think this often meant unbleached linen. (Al will know whether this is correct, if he will weigh in.)

However, and notwithstanding that, real hemp has some desirable characteristics, in particular that it doesn't rot like linen can, thus making it particularly attractive for inseaming. Also, it can have very long staples, since the hemp plant can grow really tall.

You might want to reach out to Ted Anderson -- he has a source of hemp in Europe. He previously had a source that made a very nice hemp, but I guess they no longer do so. However, he has a new source, though they require a very large minimum order, so I don't know where that stands. One downside is the hemp is equivalent to a 16 lea linen, so you need to use more like 15 strands for an inseam thread, which I find a pain in the derriere.

lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#342 Post by homeboy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:01 pm

Lance,

Exactly why I wanted to use hemp. Before poly tapers, I used linen. I have never tried hemp. Looking forward to giving it a try.

Now......Ted Anderson.......any contact information? If sensitive, send me a private email.

As always, very helpful and informative. Thanks a bunch!

Jake

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#343 Post by dearbone » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:11 pm

My apology,

My intention was not a personal gain, for i care little about that, but to help a fellow in need of something.
Nasser.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#344 Post by homeboy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:17 pm

Lance,

Did a search and found Ted's information.

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#345 Post by gshoes » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:18 pm

Nasser,

That is very nice of you. So Please send your money to me because I do care about that. LOL

Geri

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#346 Post by lancepryor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:20 pm

Jake:

from a Colloquy post many moons ago:

"By Ted Anderson on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 05:27 pm: Edit Post

I am a supplier of products used by bagpipe makers, as well as leather bag and reed-making materials. I have been using Holt's black handwax for a long time, but it is no longer available. I will have to make my own. I was glad to scan the archives and found a lot of useful info. I always remelted the too-brittle wax and added a little olive oil to make it more workable. I do not like the Thermowax as well. I was wondering if anyone has come up with a reliable source for pine pitch? Burgundy pitch is often a product reconstituted from pine rosin and oil, often petroleum based. As turpentine is not extracted by the old methods, pitch is hard to come by.
I used to make waxed-ends with #10 shoe thread (flax), but am now using hemp of about the same weight, as it is less liable to rot when wetted. All my leather-working products and techniques come from shoe and harness maker's knowlege, which I have gleaned over the years. I get my 10/1 flax shoe thread from Sweden. It is dry-spun and nobby, like the old Barbour's. I also use a 20/1 weight in flax and the same in hemp. I have good sources for bee's wax and sealing wax, and supply a few makers who find the old products and methods still yielding superior results.

Ted Anderson
bigsurtapes@sbcglobal.net"

Also, FWIW, Ted managed to get samples of the Pech Peiring products from Germany; this company still makes pitch the old fashioned way, and in Europe no less. They make a bunch of different hand waxes. Alas, they don't sell any pure pitch, only already-made products combining pitch and other stuff. I have the samples and am trying them out as I get a chance.

The e-mail address listed above is still his e-mail address.


Lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#347 Post by homeboy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:41 pm

Lance,

Let us know if you find something of value with the "ready-made" hand waxes. Are you talking about the Vesta Pech hand wax company?

I believe I have found a source for hemp. I believe the 20/1 weight hemp is referred to as 20 pound weight. Could be wrong. I'm still figuring this stuff out on the fly.

Anyway, I'm gonna start buying a lifetime supply of a product when I find something good. You just never know when they are going to stop making it available.

By the way, I still have a few "wrappers" of the old C.S. Pierce (Holt) hand wax left. It WAS too brittle. I did the same as Ted, mixed some beeswax with it. Pretty darn good hand wax then.

Keep in touch!

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#348 Post by admin » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:52 pm

Nasser,

You're welcome to repost--without the prices. Just offer your contact information and a suggestion that people contact you.

We all do well to remember that the Forum is sponsored by the Honourable Cordwainers' Company. And the HCC is a 501 C-3, non-profit, tax-exempt organization. That classification is very hard to acquire and very, very easy to lose.

Any appearance of commercial enterprises accruing to members of the Forum or Guild...even with the most innocent or altruistic motives...could foreseeably threaten that status.

Admin takes this rule (and all the rules) very seriously. The post was not deleted out of whimsey or caprice.

Emmett

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#349 Post by lancepryor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:01 pm

Hey, check this out:

http://www.hautaterva.net/


I have sent them an e-mail.


Jake, no the company I am referring to is Pech Piering

http://www.pechpiering.de

in business since 1795. I think they were in what was the East Germany/communist part of the country.

Would be interested in what you learn about the hemp, and how it works out.

Lance

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Re: Hand Wax / Coad

#350 Post by courtney » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:25 pm

I have seen balls of hemp at the craft store for beading and in different cord sizes, think it would work?
Also in the same isle they have beading needles that look alot like metal bristles, antone else seen these?

Courtney

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