Tackling the heel

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dearbone
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Re: Tackling the heel

#126 Post by dearbone » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:39 pm

DW,

You are very welcome, I am grateful to have met you all, I have learn so much from being here,not to mention the friendship i have made, you are all great people and very dear to me.
I think i will go back to sew my heel seat from now on, i like the feeling of that stitch.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#127 Post by marcell » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:41 pm

Normally this kind of stitch only goes to the sides - toe and heel has to have an other one to push down the wrinkles correctly. And... much much more dense. LIke this:
8339.jpg
8339.jpg (35.01 KiB) Viewed 372 times

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Re: Tackling the heel

#128 Post by dearbone » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:31 pm

Marcell,

It is the reverse of Hasluck technique,the only worry is that when the sole is put on, it will be pegged close to the edge and they come out through the insole, a split lift is also added and pegged,other than that the reverse tehnique is good for collecting wrinkles, Surly DW could have made tighter (closer) stitches,but for first time experiment, it is a break through.

(Message edited by dearbone on December 17, 2008)

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Re: Tackling the heel

#129 Post by marcell » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:04 pm

I didn't mean it bad, I just tried to add my positive critics to help. We eastern european think a bit different than americans - but it already caused some problem (and will). Positive critics means in our social code an encourage in yours.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#130 Post by dearbone » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:39 pm

Marcell,

I don't think me or anyone else here thought you "meant bad" as you put it, your critics and input is always welcome here 24/7 as far as i am concern, As far as Eastern Eurpeans think differently than Americans, well every natoin (people) is product of it's own culture, but in the end we are ALL ONE PEOPLE.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#131 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:17 pm

Hi all been tracking this thread (pun intended) I learned a lot from this discussion.
I worked with an Italian Fellow who could hand sew like a machine. He did a stitch something like that all around a dress shoe with a cement on sole. Never saw pegs and he nailed all his upper, counter, lining to the insole thru a heel split/rand. If you metion wood pegs he would grumble and mutter in Italian.
After a few jugs of red wine, he said, he started cutting pegs and hand sewing welts to help the family at age 6, WW II Musolini was in power and they were desperate broke. I cut pegs till my fingers bled, then went to school and came home and cut pegs.

So some things will be done for reasons, other than what maybe obvious to us.

I saw an old shoe store catalogue I think 1920"s they had a weird and wild assortment of rasps and files to grind down pegs in shoes. These things had points, triangles, round, and oval heads, different handle curves to get to any spot on the insole of any shoe. It looked like a tool a retailer would use to fit a shoe or if a peg worked its way up.
would make one think there was a lot of pegged footwear out there( Western Canada ) back then D.A Salgatto please. Footwear of Canada history please? There was a thriving shoe making business in Canada in the early 1900's Mostly Ontario and Quebec and of course Dacks in the Maritimes
Happy Holidays all
May the Elves clean the shop while you sleep!
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Brendan

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Re: Tackling the heel

#132 Post by dw » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:31 pm

Marcell,

I would also like to reassure you that your comments were welcomed and not taken amiss.

Discussing different approaches to particular techniques or particular problems...even comparing and critiquing them...is what this Forum is all about...and always has been.

I have been doing a plain whip stitch in the waist and heel seat areas on my boots. I have also seen top shelf West End shoes made with a plain whip stitch in the heel seat. So I just continued whip stitching the heel seat on my shoes too.

I like this method...the Hasluck method. It is the first time I have done it....or anything like it. But I pegged a split lift on this morning (two rows of pegs) and had no worry that my pegs would cut the thread, or be too close to the edge of the insole. That's always been a big "no-no" for me. So that's a plus.

I will tighten up my stitches on the next pair but I would have to see a pair done the other way (the "Eastern European" way Image ), torn apart, to know if I could be comfortable doing it that way, as well.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#133 Post by dw » Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:06 am

Following up on the photo above of my first attempt at a "sewn seat" (at least first attempt doing it the "right" way), here is a photo of the same shoe ready for the outsole:
8683.jpg


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Re: Tackling the heel

#134 Post by gshoes » Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:26 am

DW,
Did you happen to take any pics of the procedure for inserting the pegs into the heel section? And what is the white material used in the center of the shoe? Geri

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Re: Tackling the heel

#135 Post by dw » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:03 am

Geraldine,

Pegs are "driven." A dedicated awl is give a good whack to create a hole and the peg itself is driven into that hole.

I did not photograph that procedure although I am sure there are more detailed instructions and perhaps even illustrations if not photos elsewhere on the forum.

The "white material" is simply a cream cow...scraps of lining leather...that I have used as an insole filler. It helps to level the bottom and even create a bit of immovable (as opposed to cork) cushioning under the insole.

BTW, this was my first use of Baker welting strips. They are just a tidge thinner that what I would have cut for myself from Horween welting but I thought they were very satisfactory...Horween has been having some problems supplying...and remarkably strong for the thickness. I'd buy more.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#136 Post by lancepryor » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:57 am

Here is a bit of a random question, but one I have nonetheless.

When leveling the heel, where in terms of the width of the instep do you want the shoe to touch the ground? i.e. do you level the heel so that the sole touches in the middle of the sole, or do you level it so that the sole touches nearer the ball of the foot, since that should be the point where the forefoot is striking the ground?

On a related topic, how much curvature (side to side) do people put into their sole? How much off the ground are the edges of the sole when your shoe is resting on the ground?

Thanks for your input.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#137 Post by dearbone » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:19 pm

This is from J korn,you might also find it on one of Golding books,i hope it answers your question.
9631.jpg
9630.jpg

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Re: Tackling the heel

#138 Post by dw » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:21 pm

Lance,

The way I have always done it, the way I was taught, and I've never seen anything to contradict this...so it should apply to shoes as well as boots...is that if you place the last on an eye-level shelf and view it from the heel end looking towards the toe, the heel seat will normally be in the same plane as the forepart. Then when the heelseat is level, the forepart should rest between where the first and second medial heads would be--along the "Line of Muscular Action"--and on the treadline.

I have seen some lasts where the heelseat and the forepart are not in the same plane, and this presents a problem because the clear intention is to effectively insert a medial lift under the heel which, in turn means that the finished heel will appear higher on the medial side--cattywampus, if you will.

As for the curve I think that is dictated by the last but I would note that if significant buildups are added to the sides of the last...effectively extending the width of the insole by more than say, a quarter of an inch...the bottom radius ought, in my opinion be "corrected" because such buildups will exaggerate the curves more than the curve on a correspondingly wide (but intentionally wide) last--eg. building an A last to a E forepart, compare the built-up last to a natural E and you will see that the bottom radius is too extreme on the built-up last.

I hope all that makes sense.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#139 Post by dw » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:26 pm

Not to take this too far afield from Lance's question (but it did prompt this one)...

I wonder how folks approach leveling the heel itself. I have always made the heel level...front to back, side to side.

But I have seen some bootmakers recommend that a "dimes worth" of spring be introduced to the back of the heel...in other words one ought to be able to slip a dime under the heel at the back.

I've never understood the reasoning for this but I can't recall ever hearing anyone explain it either.

How do most of you shoemakers approach leveling the heel?

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Re: Tackling the heel

#140 Post by dearbone » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:57 am

Here is another style of heel seat stitching/sewing, along Marcell's beautiful stitching from recent past,this one is whip stitched without holdfast,but a nice slop on insole where the awl comes out,the insole is 8 oz
9761.jpg

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Re: Tackling the heel

#141 Post by fishball » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:26 pm

Could any one tell me why some heel lift called "cowboy washer"?


(Message edited by fishball on July 02, 2009)

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Re: Tackling the heel

#142 Post by dw » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:02 pm

Because embedded in the rubber are little metal washers. When you drive a nail through one of the holes the head of the nail will seat on the washer. That's what keeps the heel on. If there were no washers, the nail wouldn't have anything to push against and the heel would pull off.

Some cowboy heels have a separate, and harder, denser, layer that the nail seats against.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#143 Post by fishball » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:07 pm

DW,

Thanks a lot!

Which brand is better in term of wearing?
Vibram, biltrite, cat's paw?
BTW, what is that two white dot on the Cat's Paw heel? Does it has any specific fuction?

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Re: Tackling the heel

#144 Post by fishball » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:24 pm

Who can tell me how to make the "curve" of the "cuban heel"
Just use the file and sanding wheel?

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Re: Tackling the heel

#145 Post by dw » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:21 am

Alex,

That will work.

But usually (or back in the day) a finisher came with a "B" wheel as part of the standard setup. The "B" wheel is convex in shape...like a circular banana mounted on the shaft. Image A little practice with it and at cutting with it from different angles and you'll have a "Cuban" heel in no time.

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(Message edited by admin on November 02, 2009)

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Re: Tackling the heel

#146 Post by paul » Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:44 am

Alexander,

I'm feeling wordy, so I'll give your Cuban heel question my "how I".
But first I see no reply to your question about the white dots on Cat's Paw heels.

They're things of the past, for starters. Their composition was different from the rest of the rubber in the heel, as there were string fibers mixed in with the rubber. As I understood it, this was to give extra traction, and wear. In the latter years, probably because the rubber abrasion levels increased, it was just paint.


Now as to the "cuban curve", any way you get it done is right. And using a file would get it done.
And a B wheel is great if you have one. But for me, since I don't, I go to the sanding belt on my finisher when I'm shaping such a curve. I find the sanding belt radius is just what I want, because it's what I get, if you know what I mean. I also use this approach on the logger heels, for the wild land fire boots I repair. They have a similar curve.

So this is what I do:

After I have the heel base the height I want, and leveled to sit flat on the intended lift, I determine my heel lift size, say a cowboy heel size 5. And I outline it on the last layer.

Now I go to my sander with the boot 'bottoms up'. And using the line I've outlined, I sand away the excess to up to that line. Being careful here will keep the counter away from the sanding belt while the boot is in this upside down position. I don't want to sand all the way up all layers of the base, just say three or four layers. Just leave the rest for...

Next, turning the boot over now, and with a good tight grip, I carefully approach the sanding wheel with the heel base. I want to avoid the sole layer (I'll come back and clean that up later), but I begin my pressure on the belt at the second layer, that's the first layer of the base. And, carefully blending this plane with the one from the other end, I work the heel round the sides, and left and right of the base, shaping it more and more to the radius/curve of my sanding wheel.

Additional shaping and smoothing of this curve can be accomplished with the naumkeg sanding disk, especially if it still has some 'tooth', but there is a limit to be reached.
Now, whenever I get to my wife's next pair, I'm going to want some additional curve, and so I'll go to a round rasp for that tighter radius.
But so far, 'what I get is what I want', if you know what I mean.

Have fun,

Paul

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Re: Tackling the heel

#147 Post by jkrichard » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:08 pm

I approach Cuban heels the same manner as Paul K does, the only exception to adding the heel cap and using the heel cap as a guide while sanding.

Approaching the sander with the boot upright puts your blind on the sander, I find it's best to get a good ridge going while the boot is upside down, rotating as far as you possibly can to extend the bevel to the 'blind side.'

...also, if your Naumkeg is atop of your belt sanders, it's a good idea to have it turned off --- a generally safety tip (not that I've had run-ins with the Naumkeg...no, no, not me!).

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Re: Tackling the heel

#148 Post by dw » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:54 pm

I might add, just for the sake of discussion, that once upon a time...the "back in the day" for those who taught us...shaped heels were much more common and a lot of this was done with a heel shave.

I bought a heel shave and several "sweeps" when I first was getting in to this business but I don't know if it was the fact that I was plenty green...back in the day, that was...or whether it was the fact that heels shaves were part of Barnsley's "Boston" (tongue-in-cheek for "anachronistic"wink line and therefore not made real good, but either way I never could get a handle on using it.

BTW, if you can find cloth backed sheet abrasives in say 80 grit or even 50 grit, it is possible to make your own naumkeg "papers." I've done it in 220. I got onto this some years ago...heck, it may be 20 years now--back in the day, anyway...when they stopped making naumkeg papers that fit real-life naumkeg pads. I had to learn how to re-shape them to get any life out of them at all. As hard as I tried and as careful as I could be, they would go on so sloppy and warped that they'd develop a fold or kink at the edge and soon there would be a hole in the paper. Just another loss to the "politics" of expediency.


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Re: Tackling the heel

#149 Post by jkrichard » Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:10 pm

DW,
I've seen heel shaves running about eBay from time to time...am I correct in understanding that the handles on each side of the shave are used to turn the tool around the back of the heel to form the curve?

-Jeff

p.s. Beware the Naumkeg!

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Re: Tackling the heel

#150 Post by dw » Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:27 pm

The handles are to pull the tool which has a radiused blade on it. The blade cuts the concave curve in the sides of the heel. Blades were manufactured in various "sweeps," some more curved some less.

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