Tackling the heel

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chuck_deats

Re: Tackling the heel

#101 Post by chuck_deats »

I am going to play devil's advocate and someone please correct me if I am wrong. The purpose of heel stitching, and shank stitching for that matter, is only to hold parts in place until the outsole is installed and pegged. The stitching has no effect on the ultimate strength of the boot. The pegs do the work. If adhesive will hold the parts in place, then the stitching can be eliminated. The argument is weaker for the shank piece than for the heel. I have always done the stitching, but sometimes wonder why. Is this stitching a holdover from the days of rabbit-skin glue?

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Re: Tackling the heel

#102 Post by dw »

Chuck,

I'll play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate...Image

Aside from the obvious environmental (yours) and perhaps even ethical reasons for not relying on cement, if at all possible, there is a practical reason as well.

Even the best of all-purpose cements will tend to degrade over time and the adhesive bond be lost. This is more true in areas that flex or are in constant contact with water and/or dirt but still true nonetheless. Some will make the point that the bond will hold for "long enough." And I suppose if a person only owns one pair of shoes or boots and wears them hard and "puts 'em up wet," it is a valid point. Such a shoe will probably wear out fast enough that this "end state" of the cement will never be reached before the shoe either needs repairing or is beyond it.

But I have seen many pairs of shoes/boots that relied upon cement only...esp. in the shank...which, when opened for repair, seem to lose almost all definition because the cement had failed. Effectively making the shoes nearly impossible to repair with any ease or certainty.

So are we making one "one day wonders?" Or planning and building for the long view?

The thread or pegs may indeed be there as a holdover from the days of glues but with or without any kind of adhesive they still act as a final, and most dependable, line of defense.

And if the cement fails and the threads break or are cut, it is far easier to re-sew the upper in place using the original holes than to re-cement to some ill-defined, and almost entirely obscured by dirt, long lost margin to which the upper was cemented.

So in the final analysis...at least in my estimation...whatever method you use is there not just to hold things in place until the outsole can be mounted but, years and miles later, to hold things in place when the outsole is dismounted.

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marcell

Re: Tackling the heel

#103 Post by marcell »

Chuck, the question was very good - my customers always ak it, when I explain them my techniques.

My answers:
1. yes - you have to make a stitching channel on the insole.
2. DW is right - we don't make our shoes/boots only for a short term (1-2 years), until the cement keeps the leathers together. Stitch is a long term solution - even for 10-20 years. (obviously not continous wearing, but cement is not for that long)
3. pegs are good, but only they are strong only for one direction: ealongside - the lasting allowance means an across strenght, which can easily break the pegs - thatswhy we use this stitches. If you use cement, and don't want to make that shoes for that long, you can also fix the welt with pegs - for example women shoes are made like this.

And a picture with the method - I hope you can understand, and maybe work with it. Try this method! You will find it easy and useful, if you have a customer, who need "offgassing"
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Re: Tackling the heel

#104 Post by dw »

Well, I'd like to see from Marcell or Nasser...or anyone or better yet all...a photo of the heel seat feather/channel.

Would that be possible?


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chuck_deats

Re: Tackling the heel

#105 Post by chuck_deats »

Marcell, DW,

Thanks for the comments, and the devil is in the details. I am probably mixing boot making with shoemaking and I know little or nothing of shoemaking.

First, rule #1, adhesive can be used anywhere you wish as long as there are enough mechanical fasteners to take the load after the adhesive fails. The strength of ½ to ¾ inch spaced whip stitching is very small compared to a double row of pegs. The whip stitching has very little effect on the strength or life of the boot. I can see the argument to hold the shank support, if the shank is not pegged.

The repair issue does make sense. When you remove the outsole and remove the pegs and the adhesive has failed, the whip stitching will hold everything in place. Back to rule #1, mechanical fasteners hold after adhesive failure. I was not thinking far enough ahead. Glad I kept doing it.

Thanks for the opportunity to “outgas”. Marcell, wish the picture had come through. I have been surprised at the strength of pegs, If the part has to flex, stitching is better, but if it is rigid, like heels and shanks, pegs are at least as strong, and probably stronger,

Chuck
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Re: Tackling the heel

#106 Post by marcell »

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Re: Tackling the heel

#107 Post by dearbone »

DW,

I soaked a leather insole and will be ready by sometime tomorrow to make the heel feather/channel, suffice to say for now, that it is like the preparation for the welt holdfast,(rabbet) but wider for the heel seat,(the distance where the awl comes out,to the feather edge) and that is for the added width of the stiffener.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#108 Post by dearbone »

Correction,
"Added width in the last line of the above post, i meant to say added thickness of the stiffener.
My apology.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#109 Post by dearbone »

Heel seat feather channel.
8275.jpg

Here is quick demo of how i generally make the heel seat channel, i hope you can see it well,my point & shoot is not good for close ups, i marked with silver pen, where the awl comes out and make a holdfast for both the welt and the heel seat,as you can see the feather edge is wider for the heel,basically where the awl goes in for the welt sewing is where the awl comes out for the heel seat sewing, as you see in the picture, i made the holes for the seat straight instead of slant and it will do the job,the holes on the curve of the seat are made closer together on the inside of the holdfast, because of the curve of the heel seat.
DW, do i get paid extra for this?
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Re: Tackling the heel

#110 Post by dw »

Nasser,

That's great! I suspected something along these lines but it's good to see. Thank you.

As for payment...well, there is no provision in the budget for paying members. Only the administrator gets paid. On that score, I suppose I can share my bag of peanuts with you... Image

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Re: Tackling the heel

#111 Post by dearbone »

DW,

You are welcome,
I thought you knew from the description, but i think you are an absolute perfectionist and i say that as a complement and your willingness to share your bag of peanuts is greater honor. I wish to see how Marcell or others do their heel seat feather channel.
Marcell, try one more time.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#112 Post by das »

Nasser,

I cannot say how glad I was to see your posting on British hand-sewn seats! And I say "British", because that technique never seemed to have made it trans-Atlantic to the US since it's beginnings in the UK in the mid-late 1800s. I am embarrassed to admit it, but that weird whip-stitch has plagued me for decades--exactly how to form it based on the little illustration in Hasluck's book. I think I finally have got it now thanks to your drawing.

Chuck,

If the historical examples are anything to judge by (and you know me--I think they are), relying on sewing/stitching to hold everything was just "tradition". I've never seen a ref. to rabbit skin or any other glues for shoe-making per se early on, only the mild (by modern standards) adhesive paste. Wooden pegs (and nails *spit*, *spit*,*spit*) were usually confined to attaching the top-piece of the heel only, the permanent bits, i.e. heel-seat, split-lift, and middle lifts of stacked leather heels, were all stitched/sewn-on one or more at a time. When pegs are found inside these heels (1600s-1800s) at all, it's usually just a few to pin the lift down until it's sewed. The sewn seat Nasser's illustrated for us, I think, looks like a rand-less "degenerate" form of the older 17th-18thc. sewn-seats incorporating "rands" ("stitched" and "blind"]--see Rees:1813 and Devlin:1840 for details on these. Especially on boots, a sewn seat was thought the "only" way well into the 20thc., as pegging/nailing would just not stand up to repeatedly pulling tight-fitting boots off in a boot jack as well as stitching. And today I think it only works on cowboy boots because of the advanced adhesives used in conjunction with the pegs--pegs and paste alone would doubtfully stand up to the boot jack.

In (modern) history making new shoes/boots entirely by nailing/pegging the heels (or soles) on was an American innovation to speed/cheapen the production. Early attempts dated from the first decade of the 1800s, but really came into their own by 1850. Pegging with wood proved more satisfactory than nails in the US (the Brits preferred nails AKA "rivets"], but pegging declined in the 20thc. to a hand-work technique, and nailing survived as both "inside nailing", "knocked on", and outside nailing, a factory or mass-production technique. Can't get out of here without a history lesson Image
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Re: Tackling the heel

#113 Post by dearbone »

Greetings to brother Al,

Thank you for the history lesson,first i want to mention that the whip stitch illustration didn't come from Hasluck's book,but from illustrations of shoes sent to me from the Machault by Stephen Davis,which you know and the ship that was scuttled in the bay of Chaleur in the summer of 1760.

The heel seat of the Machault shoes were rand sewn,it is interesting to learn you mentioning it as older than the British hand sewn seat.
All i know about the whip stitch came from the Machault shoes, which says, "Sometimes the shoemaker reinforced the backs of the latchets where the the buckle was attached with a piece of leather which he whip stitched in place". my understanding of it is this,(i was never thought how to do this stitch)first the thread will be invisible from top of the latchets,so the awl goes in from the top of the reinforcement piece and half way through the thickness of the latchet leather. i hope that makes sense.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#114 Post by chuck_deats »

Al,
Appreciate the history lesson. The origional question was, Why am I doing the whip stitching?, which was answered well. Rabbit skin glue was a term I heard from a bootmaker describing how they made boots in the "old" days. I assumed it was some sort of hide glue.

All the above discussions are attaching the uppers to the insole. Have not seen or heard of attaching the heel buildup with stitching.(Don't have Rees or Devlin but will look into it.) First impression is, it would be weaker than a well pegged heel even without glue. Maybe I don't understand and would like to learn more.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#115 Post by das »

Brother Nasser,

I'll have to go back over my notes and drawing of the Machault shoes. While some of those had "/ / / /" marks on the underside of the insoles, I read them as normal single-thread whip-stitches that went "/ / / /", securing the rand underneath. I don't recall any that had no rand, but just a sewn seat--I'll look again.

The same French text (Garsault) that described the reinforcing patches on the buckle straps being whipped, elsewhere also described whipping rands and other parts as a "simple seam/stitch", or "a la surjet".

It wasn't so much thinking about the whipping, but rather the peculiar stitch you show using two bristles--most whipping was just with one doing an over-and-over, or over-cast whip-stitch. The two-ended whip-stitch I think I first saw in Hasluck Image
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Re: Tackling the heel

#116 Post by das »

Chuck,

Sorry if my history lesson wandered too far afield there--stuff happens, especially when I'm on my 3rd cup of tea in the AM. Ok, "you're" doing the whip-stitching as a hold-over from days of yore when boot and shoemakers relied on sewing/stitching to do musty everything. The top-piece of the heel wore out and got replaced often, so they just pegged that on--permanent parts got sewed/stitched.

As far as glue goes, yup, rabbit skins and other "hides" were used to make glue--but that glue is not mentioned in connection with boot or shoemaking that I've ever read. First, it had to be kept hot in a double boiler (and stinks to high heaven BTW); second it's strong, but brittle, and useless in a flexible thing like footwear. Cabinetmakers and other woodworkers have used it for centuries however--it is strong stuff. People started experimenting with cemented sole-attaching in the mid 1800s--in fact I own the US patent model of the "first" cemented-on "gutta-percha" sole, which I think dates from the 1840s or '50s. The sole's fallen off BTW Image

Stitched vs.pegged for strength--It's a hard call. Pegged with AP contact cement would probably be stronger than sewn/stitched. Nailed (clinched points) would be stronger yet, plus AP contact cement. But back in "the day" the choices were sewing/stitching, or pegging, and only "mildly" adhesive paste. Pegs swell and hold tight, but then if allowed to get too dry they come loose and let go.

Check out the dead guys' books--they are full of time-tested techniques, so no need to reinvent certain wheels at least.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#117 Post by dearbone »

Al,

I see you were referring to the my hand drawing of the heel seat sewing,that one is from Hasluck,Sorry about leaving the other bristle on the thread in my picture, only one bristle is needed to sew the heel seat(whip stitch),it is a habit of mine to put two bristles on thread.my apology if that appeared misleading.
I agree the Machault shoes were rand sewn, but not whip stitched, I can see that the rand can also be whip stitched round the heel seat,but the illustrations i have,it is sewn to insole like we sew the welt except the rand will be folded and than stitched to the sole.
8285.jpg

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Re: Tackling the heel

#118 Post by shoestring »

Thinking aloud,
As being fairley new at the time to shoe making, when securing a heel seat using pegs I though a dab of cement onto the pegs sometimes thinking it will hold stronger.I put on some rubber heels on the first pair slippers I made in order that auto sole nails would not snagg the carpet or stratch a hardwood floor( a smart though at the time)well the heels out lasted the shoe.Also Igor was in the shop helping out that day due to the high volume of lighting........... .

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Re: Tackling the heel

#119 Post by dw »

Nasser, all,

I am trying this sewn seat method on the pair of shoes I will last on Monday or Tuesday. My insoles look almost identical to what you (Nasser) posted above.

It occurred to me however that it is a very good thing that I make shoes with some of the same philosophy that I make boots. If I had used the lasting allowances that most of the pattern books recommend, I doubt I would have enough leather pulled over into the seat to reach as far as the heel feather.

I think I have about 2cm lasting allowance all around but in the heel area .5cm of that can be allotted to the insole...so call it 1.5cm turnover.

I think it will be a near thing.

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(Message edited by dw on December 07, 2008)
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Re: Tackling the heel

#120 Post by dearbone »

DW,

Just to be safe,You might need to add another 5mm for the heel seat allowance, some books say less lasting allowance is needed for sewn work,i think they are talking about foreparts allowance or possibly machine lasting,however for this seat sewing,i measured 12mm the distance where the awl comes out to the edge of the insole, you may reduce the thickness of the insole edge around heel to 3mm, but leave it meatier around the holdfast and you may also make the holdfast for the sewn seat a little wider than the front,because of the extra power needed to pull the thread.
Good luck with that.
My 2 cents

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Re: Tackling the heel

#121 Post by dearbone »

DW,

I just tried an upper on that insole posted above, i think your 1.5cm allowance will be a near thing as you said and sometimes that is the best thing, you can make few small changes to the insole feather to make up for it if you need it, thinning the insole edge or shorting the feather distance a little.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#122 Post by dearbone »

DW,

I was pondering last night,why Hasluck made the holes for the heel seat sewing on SLANT,here is what came to mind, Holes made on slant are wider and therefore stronger than holes made in straight line from each other.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#123 Post by dw »

Nassre, all,

Well, here's my first attempt at making the kind of sewn seat that Nasser described...from Hasluck...

It was not all that hard but it is a little tricky in some ways. I do like the way it pulls the upper material over the heelseat.

BTW, I not only had enough but some extra which was tricky to trim off--right up to the heelseat feather...no more nor less.
8333.jpg



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Re: Tackling the heel

#124 Post by dearbone »

Dw,

Bravo,Now that looks like some clean stitch you have made, the spilt lift usually goes on top of it and pegged.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#125 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Well, I was in a bit of a hurry when I posted that...as you can tell by the way I spelled your name. Image

But I did want to thank you for the original thread and for the pointer to Hasluck. Thank you.

I like this technique pretty well...I could easily use it with my boots too, with a little planning.

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