Tackling the heel

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cobalt

Re: Tackling the heel

#76 Post by cobalt »

Hi Paul,
I am looking for very small buckles perhaps even 1/2" or smaller. I want to do something like the following,

http://www.dimoutshoes.com/caress-429.html

But not so adult oriented a little classier and I am trying to play with satin for the straps or silk for the strength while still maintaining comfort. So for this I am going to be working with a combination of last and my girlfriend's actual feet. She can read a book in the meantime.

That should give insight on the buckle and the shape of the heel, although I would love to use wood not plastic. Let me know about the buckles Paul! I greatly appreciate it!

Shane

(Message edited by Cobalt on October 09, 2007)
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Re: Tackling the heel

#77 Post by headelf »

Hi,
I have those buckles, the small,sliding, self- locking ones that you do not have to get the little prong in the hole. In black and gold.
Contact me if you want some.
Regards,
Georgene

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cobalt

Re: Tackling the heel

#78 Post by cobalt »

Hi Georgene,

Those look great, do you have an email address I can reach you at??

-Shane
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Re: Tackling the heel

#79 Post by admin »

If you click on a members name at the top of their post, a profile will come up that includes an email address for that member.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#80 Post by paul »

Georgene,

Fantastic! Those are just the ones I have always thought made the most sense for such small straps. I was sure there were still some out there.
Glad you're amoungus.
You're goin' to be at the AGM, aren't you? See you there.

Shane,
Please forgive me. I just realized I sold the bag of buckles last spring in a box of old stuff. The ones Georgene shows really are the best choice in my opinion. A single hole can significantly weaken a strap, especially when it's on a shoe of a platform design. The foot strains against the strap with each step. Bottom line is, go with the sliding lock buckle. You might need to do some tests, of course, for the best thickness, with your reinforcements and all, but it'll be a sign of your attention to quality details.


Good luck. Let us see pictures.

PK

PK
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Re: Tackling the heel

#81 Post by kaspar »

Lyle
I like the arch support. Thanks for showing.
K.
cobalt

Re: Tackling the heel

#82 Post by cobalt »

No worries Paul! I will show pictures as things come together. Georgene has a wonderful website at

www.shoedo.com

Take a look at the materials available for those working on heels! Now I just need to get some more books on the structure of attatching straps and such! Pictures will come as I progress, don't your breath though this is going to take a long time!

-Shane
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Re: Tackling the heel

#83 Post by starmaker »

Here's what I know about wooden heels. They USED to be made out of hard rock maple---just like the old wooden lasts that we all still love. As far as I know, you can still get top lift nails for wood heels as well as wood heel attaching nails.

About 20+ years ago you could just order them from the Colonial Heels catalogue. Then I found a guy in NJ who was probably the last heel turner in the USA---then he switched to golf bags or something similar. He told me one needed about 20 different machines/processes to produce a wooden heel?? I can believe it because I had him make me alot of "Louis"/spool/waisted heels for my theatrical footwear business. I know they still make them in Italy and elsewhere but don't have a phone number. A friend in Canada recently found a source in Portugal---again for theatrical/period footwear. I will try to find the contact info and post it.

For attaching, I cement in a heel tuck---(no more fibre board, just plastic,) drill a smallish not too deep hole through the tuck, insole, hopefully hitting between the prongs in the shank and a bit into the heel. Then I use a 1 inch dry wall screw, and 2 to 4 wood heel nails to prevent slippage and furthur secure the heel. Use leather soling scraps for a top lift with wood heel top lift nails. Everything I do has to have "dance rubber" on it to top off the whole process--see: golash soling!

The Cubans are easy but if you're doing a breasted heel you have to do a breasted SOLE as well, or put a masking piece on the breast of the heel.

I agree, the plastic stinks but until we can either revive the shoe biz in this country or find folks in Europe I'm afraid we're stuck. I'd be interested to see what kind of heels that big ol' machine can turn out!!

It's been a long hard day of fluffing up my old Landis line finisher with help from a friend so I'll get off for now
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Re: Tackling the heel

#84 Post by sean_oneil »

It's that time of year again - time to crank up the bandsaw and start making Louis heels. It is an awful lot of work and just a touch dangerous. My fingertips get very close to that bandsaw blade and I'm quite fond of my fingertips.

My wife Margaret, the true bootmaker in this business, just returned from giving a pattern making workshop at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival. While she was there one of the makers showed her their stash of Louis heels that they sourced from www.minke.de You'll find them in the PDF Last catalog if you want to have a look.

The price was quite reasonable. Certainly less than I can make them for - and I get to keep my fingertips! The model we are interested in is # 179 on page 38 of the PDF. However, I am ignorant of the sizing system they are using. I'll quote: "Size categories 9-12 and 13-16". Can anybody shed some light on what that might translate into in North American terms? And those of you who have ordered from Minke in the past - is turn around time reasonable? I've never had to order supplies from Europe but given the decline in what is available in NA it might become more common in the future.
relferink

Re: Tackling the heel

#85 Post by relferink »

Sean,

Looks to me that they come in only two sizes, one fitting size 9 to 12 and a larger one fitting sizes 13 through 16. These would most likely be English sizes, not American!
Depending on who you ask the difference between UK and women's US is anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5 sizes, the UK size being the smaller number.
If that seems very large it may be because some of the heels they sell are meant to be finished by the user to the final size, these may be part of that as well.
Shoot them off an email, they should be able to tell you at least how wide the heel seat is on both sizes. If it's important to you also check with them how the measure the heel, at the breast, center or from the back of the heel.

I have ordered supplies from Minke, great quality supplies and materials but I find them generally expensive. They carry a large inventory (or at least used to) so turn around was always quick. I'm sure when you email them they can tell you if they have them in stock. They will send your order airmail if you are willing to pay for it.

Hope this helps

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on February 15, 2008)
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Re: Tackling the heel

#86 Post by starmaker »

Hi All,
It's been awhile, but as I'm always hot on the trail of "period" heels--have been for about 35 years now. A friend of mine in Canada(!)a Stratford alum, found somebody in Portugal. I will try to get ahold of her as it's been awhile and see if maybe we all can't get a big order going. I do alot of men's "pumps" either with a high Cuban or Louis so need the really big heel bases. There's a plactic shorter one available called Empire but it only works on women's---it's a real pain to have to build up the back curve/base to get them to work on men's stuff----later---
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Re: Tackling the heel

#87 Post by romango »

On the last several pairs of shoes I have made, I've included a 'rand'. I was never specifically taught this technique, other than reading about it in HMSFM. I began using it to address several problems that it seems to remedy:

1) I can dye the rand and avoid excess glue, thus improving the top of my heels (what little shows). Otherwise, I must scrape off the top layer of glue, carefully dye (into a difficult crevasse) and burnish to get a good surface.
7932.jpg

7933.jpg


2) I get a flat, well attached surface to glue the sole to.
7934.jpg


I am wondering if other makers use or prefer the 'rand'. Am I being overly fussy or avoiding good technique, or it this a reasonable solution to the issues I have described?
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Re: Tackling the heel

#88 Post by dw »

Rick,

There are several techniques...purpose made for removing the cement and dying the heel seat piece. But the way you are doing it is a good one, although I am not convinced that cutting the notches the way you're doing is necessary--I think originally cutting those notches was implemented because the rand was made as a straight piece (less leather usage) and bent to conform to the curve of the heel seat.

When I make boots, I let the outsole become the heel seat...at least partially because I make a deliberate effort to thin the outsole down through the shank and I don't want that extra thickness to disrupt that line.

When I make shoes, since I'm extending the welt back to the breast of the heel, a 6 iron (approximately) heel seat blends with the welt and again creates an harmonious and continuous line. I usually cut the heel seat in a "horseshoe" shape...much like yours depicted above...but don't bother with the notches.

In either case, a careful application of cement along with a little dye could be used in just the same fashion as you describe--boots or shoes, dedicated heel seat or outsole. I don't always do it that way now but I have done.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#89 Post by big_larry »

Speaking of the heel fit,

I recently made a trial boot for a lady who has very thin heels. I mean Very, very thin heels. She brought it to my attention on te trial boot and explained that she did not wear boot because she could not get boots that fit the front without having her heels slipping and sliding around in the heel cavity of the boot. I must admit that I had slipped up and had not used a caliper to check the plaster casting for heel fit. I ended up using a mens size 6 1/2 D last. This fit the heel and the ball of her foot. I had to enlarge the front parts of the last with leather to accomadate her width and girth. I ended up grinding at least a 1/4 inch from the width of the heel. I like to make the heel fit just a bit snug and by the time I used the 60, 220 and 400 grit belts, maybe I took a bit more off.

I checked the castings for my next two pair, a husband and wife, and the lady has a left heel that is about 3/16 larger than the right. Her husband has a heel that is about 5/16 wider than the last. Again, I had to build up the front as well as the heels to get the heel and ball to match the last. Hers is a size 7 D and his are 11/1/2 D.

The point is that after 2 years of pretty steady boot makin', I'm still developing the basic techniques. I hve come to the conclusion that anyone lucky enough to learn our trade through an apprenticeship has a very big advantage over the "school and jump in" method. I still wonder if there isn'ta "smart pill" that would enable a student bootmaker to get through the learning curve a lot faster. Or, maybe some of us just have to learn the hard way.

It has occured to me that the traditional trade guilds required about four (4) full yearss of apprentice experience. Maybe it takes that long to get the brain to train itself with all the new tasks it must master. The learning curve for my fancy stitching on the tops has been laborious. I calculated that one pattern I developed, after borrowing the general idea from someone elses pattern, that the inside row had 30 switchbacks, the outside row had 32 switchbacks, with two patterns on one half of the panel added up to over 8.000 switchbacks on the sewing machine. This includes all seven rows and filling in the center. I repeated this pattern on four (4) pair of boots. I have about decided tha this could cause a mild psychosis.

My patterns are now drawn with very few switchbacks and with a much simpler pattern. This reminds me of one of my first jobs out of high school. I worked in a mine called "The Wandering Jew." We used carbide lampss that attach on the front of your mining hat. After setting the fuses with a spitter, we would head out of the drift and climb up a ladder system until the dynamite gas would clear out. The blast would blow out the light and this would necessitate hooking one arm on a ladder rail and holding the palm of the other hand over the mirroe and with the heel of the hand, rub the striker and relight the lamp. I would burn my wrist every time I climbed a step on the ladder as the flame from the carbide lamp was right at the level of my wrist grasping the next wrung. I finally solved the problem when I observed the old miners wearing gontlet gloves.

I think becomming an expert boot fitter is a little like learning to climb the ladder with out getting your wrist burnt. Maybe I have told you more than you wanted to know about fitting the heel.

I wish you well,

Larry Peterson

"When you are robbing a train, you can rob it any way you want to."
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Re: Tackling the heel

#90 Post by dw »

Larry,

What an interesting story about mining. Geez, that's must be a hard job.

When my wife and I were first married the only job I could get on short notice was in a foundry. I didn't last long...for several reasons--first and foremost, my only pair of jeans got so stiff in the course of a day or so, they would almost stand in the corner by themselves. I didn't like being that dirty (although dirt by itself doesn't bother me--I just like to feel clean at the start of a new day).

And the second reason was that when I walked into the foundry I couldn't shake the image of walking into hell--it was dark and dirty and in the center was this red hot cauldron...sparks a-flying and molten metal pouring out. It's terrible vision to greet each new day...walking into hell.

As for fitting heels...that's why I always use a pedograph and always start with the heelseat width to choose my last. Many times I start with a narrow last knowing I will have to build up the forepart extensively simply in order to fit the heel.

And I would note, in passing, that many many of the people who come to a bespoke maker do so because they have feet that cannot be fit in off-the-rack boots. And of these, a great many are people who have narrow heels and wide foreparts.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#91 Post by jesselee »

Larry DW,

I agree that people with difficult feet come to bespoke boot makers. While we did/do a lot of work through foot tracings and measurements, some hard to fit people would come into the shop. My best allie/salesman on this was an apprentice with a long narrow foot, narrow heel width and it was pronounced at the back. He had never had a decent fit until age 30 when he apprenticed with me and we cut down and formed a pair of standard military lasts and gave him a perfect fit.
The fit eased his calouses as well as realligned his hips and back as one leg was out by 3/8". Its good to have an in-house apprentice who can explain his foot problems and show and demonstrate the lasts I made for him. They were made right the first time and never had to be built up.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#92 Post by dmcharg »

Back in '96, and about the 4th pair of shoes I'd made for customers, I traced up and measured a lady and in the fullness of time made her shoes.

Her feet slopped around in the forepart, and indeed I'd had difficulty getting a nice toe shape due to the width. Thankfully I'd brought the pattern with me for her address.

Standing her foot back on it the line showed to be grossly out. Confussion followed as I couldn't see how I'd draw an inacurate line like that, when I had the inspiration to ask if she was able to spread her big toe.

Effortlessly, and impressively, she did. When I'd originally meassured her she had been on holidays and wearing thongs (flipflops). NOW she was at work and wearing office shoes. Different foot.

Gently pushed her big toe over to the others, re-outlined and double checked the measurements, was able to get a graceful toe shape , then went and made her a replacement pair; leaving her the others untill I'd finished.
Second time around very happy result, and something I've always remembered since when outlining/measuring up people.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#93 Post by tjburr »

It seems to me that womens feet are more likely to be narrow in the heel and wide in the toe than men. I do not know if this is the type of shoes they wear, especially the taller heels, or something totally different.

Of course I might just be incorrect since I have not kept an accurate count based on sex, age and modifications off the norm.

Terry
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Re: Tackling the heel

#94 Post by big_larry »

"Well heeled"

I really beleive the pedograph is adaquit to fit the heel. In addition to the pedograph it sounds like most of us use a straight pencil line aroung the foot and a second 45 degree angle line into the featherline. I personally make the measurements on the opposite side of the pedograph print. I must sound like I am campaining to hve every one use the foam impression castings. Beleive me, I am not trying to recreate the whole world in my oun image. I just really like the luxury of using an outside caliper and sliding it over the heel casting and over the last. It is also a nice thing to sit and hold the prospective last up against the plaster casting and visually know that they are "back to back and belly to belly."

Last Tuesday I spent a few very valuable hours with my friend Don Walker. I came away very humbled and very inspired. Yhis man is a bonified Master bootmaker and a very wise man. I viewed and admired his flag boots and a lot of his other work. As I was driving home my head was working overtime trying to save all that I had learned. It came as a flashI! and I finally realized why the Ten Commandments can not be posted in our County Courthouse. You can not post: Thou Shalt Not Steal, Thou Shalt Not Commit dultry, and Thou Shalt not Lie, in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicions. Yhis wiould create a hostile work environment. I like the enviroment in Don's shop. In fact, the enviroment in Don's shop, in my shop, and I am guessing that all our boot shops, is a whole lot better than working in a mine, a foundry, or just about any other place I can think of. I am glad that I am a boot maker!

Thank you for tolerating me!

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Re: Tackling the heel

#95 Post by dearbone »

8265.jpg

Marcell, sorry answering a guestion asked of you,it will be good to hear your version too, DW, sorry for my bad drawing and for posting those two pictures of the heel sewing on wrong thread, But anyways found some reference about sewn heel in an old book, it explains the process much better.
"The sewing awl is out in at A, the point is brought up at B, and a thread is put through and halved. The awl is next put in at C and brought out at D; this is a little on the slant, and the remainder of the holes can follow the alternate dots from side to side in like manner. The stitch is set like this: the thread end hanging from B is held in the left hand, and when the hole CD is made the end at A is put into C; B is than put between AC under the thread that is going to form the stitch across these two holes. The thread A is than drawn out with the left hand at D, and the thread B drawn through under the stitch AC. This will draw the upper over at B. The next stitch is set in the same manner, which will draw D over, and so right round. each time a stitch is set it can be hammered down on top and at side; this drives the stiffener into its place, and helps to make a nice square edge. It can be seen at the last stitch that the two ends G and H tied together will make a good finish.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#96 Post by dearbone »

correction:
"The sewing awl is out in at A, is suppose to read, " The sewing awl is put in at A.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#97 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Thanks for posting that. Now I've got to print it out and give it a go.

Just on a long shot that I may have a copy, what book did that come from?

I'm looking forward to seeing Marcell's method too especially since he said it was different.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#98 Post by dearbone »

Dw,

The book is, BOOT MAKING AND MENDING, edited by PAUL N. HASLUCK. CASSELL AND COMPANY, Ltd. London, New York, Toronto and Melbourne. first published 1895 and was reprinted until 1915, The book is 4" by 7" and 160 pages with numerous illustrations, the company published a series of technical manuals, i wish i had their other manual, "practical Boot and Shoe pattern cutting and Clicking". The info regarding the sewn seat are on page 109, the book had a small illustration of the stitching the sewn heel,that's why i had to draw it bigger to post.
DW, This is not clear in the picture or the drawing, the feather line for the heel sewing is a little wider than feather line for the welt sewing, because of the added width of the stiffener according to AL's Rule which we discussed earlier. BTW, I am planing to raid my friend the books and tools collector to see what other jewels (old boot/shoe books) i can buy of him.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#99 Post by dw »

Nasser (and Marcell or anyone else),

I have that book...I'll have to go look at in more closely. Maybe I won't need to print out the forum pic.

But Nasser, are you saying that a feather is created around the heel? If so, is it a slanting feather or a rabbeted feather?

Is there a channel, as well?

I have taken apart...or examined...several top shelf men's shoes, one of them a West End shoe, and never seen a feather in the heel area. It appeared to me as though the heel stitching was done into full substance, so I am not sure if I am understanding you correctly. Mind you, I can see that a feather, esp. a tapered feather might refine the heelseat area a bit.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#100 Post by dearbone »

DW,
I am glad you have the book, it is written as sweet as Jake accent with that 19 century tongue and lots of tips hidden between the lines.
Yes, a feather is created around the heel, it is a rabbeted feather which is only channeled on one side,the outer side,where the awl comes out, the feather thinned, but still left

meatier than the welt feather edge and the
distance where the awl comes out is wider than the welt feather edge, this is a heavy duty class of work, i made few pairs for the Canadian mounted police,which they specified to be made with the heel sewn.
i think stitching full substance heel is down when the heel is Goodyear welted, but maybe some West End shoe makers or others wish to clarify.

Nasser
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