Tackling the heel

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Re: Tackling the heel

#226 Post by homeboy »

Heck....I had the information right next to me. Pam is always COMPLAINING of my "piles".

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Re: Tackling the heel

#227 Post by dinerio »

Jake,

Thanks for the info, I'll check him out. I have a couple small head knives, one that R Jolly made me years ago and a LBL, but they are a little bigger than the one DW pictured here, and measure about 3 1/2 in from tip to tip. Might be a little to big. And darned if I don't already have a Marlin straight blade skiving knife.

Just lasted the boots, so will be a few days before I tackle the heels. Still a little apprehensive about cutting that curve.

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Re: Tackling the heel

#228 Post by laelaps boots »

Hello,
I have just begun to think about the option of sewing a rand to the heel, and a welt to the forepart. Up until now I have been using a turn out method and have not needed these two parts. What I am wondering is what is the techniques of pegging the heel. I'm wondering what goes into it, how deep do you make the hole, does one smash down the end of the peg to create a mushroom. I am thankful in advance for your help,
Justin
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Re: Tackling the heel

#229 Post by dw »

laelaps boots » Fri May 20, 2016 4:20 am wrote: What I am wondering is what is the techniques of pegging the heel. I'm wondering what goes into it, how deep do you make the hole, does one smash down the end of the peg to create a mushroom. I am thankful in advance for your help,
Justin
The way I do it...the way I was taught... is first, the pegging awl must be smaller than the peg about to be driven. Considerably smaller although I don't have am amount to give you. Pegging awls, esp. in sizes, are hard to get anymore but other kinds of awls--such as harness machine awls, etc., can be adapted.

Second, the awl is driven into the leather and through all layers that want holding together. In this instance the awl would go through the "rend" and the insole and penetrate the last slightly.

The peg is driven into the hole such that it bottoms out. Some mushrooming may occur...and I used to think this was desirable...but peg points inside the shoe will be floated and pegs in the rand or outsole or heel lift leveled, so I'm not sure it makes a difference. Pegs hold by virtue of the friction created by driving a large peg into a small hole.

With each subsequent layer--outsole, heel lifts, one two three--the pegs do not necessarily penetrate as far as the last but I use some pegs, particularly in the heel area, that are as long as three or even four layers of 12 iron leather (roughly 7/8"). And in the waist or forepart I use pegs that are half inch to five-eights inch long, ie. pegs that will penetrate the outsole, insole and the bottom of the last slightly.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#230 Post by RodMomtazi »

Hello,

I am wondering, since I am relatively new to the craft, is how one achieves impeccable heel finishes. The first question I have is how one obtains a heel that is hugging or spot on to the feather line bearing in mind the rand/heel combination? Further to the point I am wondering if anyone knows of a supplier that sells ready to use heel pieces with an interior 'dip' so that the heel area is snuggly captured with little or no openings that would reveal the heel area of the shoe? I have seen ready to use heel pieces used by a master shoemaker but have no idea where he sourced them from (I think Mexico). My next question is how one achieves super glossy fine finishes on the outer surface of the heel? I have heard that some people use shellac but how does that tie in or go well with different types of waxes most shoemakers use for finishing? I would appreciate some comments or tips if anyone has some extensive knowledge in this area of the shoe making process!
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Re: Tackling the heel

#231 Post by dw »

Don't think I've posted this before but recently I have been working with some old Barnsley steel scrapers...as well as some made expressly for woodworking...in lieu of broken glass.
20190530_080547_2_(1024_x_768).jpg
The steel, when sharpened properly is very sharp...sharper, IMO, than glass can ever be...and more aggressive. And the sharpening lasts longer.

The downside is that it takes more to sharpen/resharpen them than simply breaking a windowpane.

The real benefit however is that the scrapers can be shaped to replicate any surface, including the hollow curve of a 'Cuban' heel.
heel_scraping.jpg
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Re: Tackling the heel

#232 Post by PhilipB1 »

relferink wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:25 am rounding of the heel at the extreme end. There are a number of reasons to round the heel having to do with the design and shape of the shoe, bottom and heel and even your customers unique physique but they mostly come down to allowing the foot to strike more gradually, lessening the slapping of the ball to the ground.
Just enjoyed reading the 10 pages or so of this thread about heel. DW directed me to this forum. I'm pretty new to shoe-making (strictly amateur) as well as this forum and I'm hoping to get a bit of advice...

Having made up much of the heels of some Oxford shoes (normal paste and brass nail construction, about 3/4" height), I wanted to round off the end of the heel, where the rubber would otherwise go as Rob mentions in post #167. I'm thinking I should put something like a 30 or 45 degree bevel on the heel lifts, then round off the bottom to create a smooth curve. Maybe put the curve in the centre of the heel or perhaps offset like the normal heel rubber is (which reflects better how the heel lands)? Then I need to put a top lift with some sort of rubber piece that goes around the curve at end of the heel, and still make it look good.

I release this is unconventional, but any thoughts or advice on how to do this would be much appreciated!
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Re: Tackling the heel

#233 Post by dw »

Maybe @Relferink can answer this in more detail, but absent that, I can't say that I understand the rationale behind making the heel convex (if that's what you're suggesting). I wouldn't consider it 'Best Practices' by any means--perhaps for an orthopedic application....

Bottom line--I suspect that there is no codified set of rules for doing something like this...meaning your approach is probably as good as any.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#234 Post by PhilipB1 »

Thanks for replying. Here's my thought process.  I'm largely ignorant about the mechanics of feet, but I was thinking about walking for which our feet have developed over many millennia.  The heel and heel bone (calcaneus?) are rounded to facilitate walking and running.  You see that curve reflected in modern walking and running shoes where the end of the heel is also rounded.  Dress shoes, with the square end to their flat heel, seem to be designed largely for standing still and looking elegant, rather than walking.  You see the damage caused to dress shoes when they are used for walking: the rapid wear to the heels, even with the heel rubber (and also in the toe, hence toe plates).

So my thesis (certainly not original) is that a slight rounding/curving of the last 1/2"-1" (only) of the heel would facility better walking and would significantly reduce heel wear.  Not a convex heel as such, as the middle and forepart of the heel would be flat to the floor as normal.

Is it best practise to round the end of the heel?  We do it by walking in the shoes anyway (before paying the cobbler to fit a new heel), so perhaps one form of best practise might dictate that we build a form of heel more suited to walking and which doesn't wear out so quickly (and keep the cobblers so busy).

I'm happy to be shot down on this.  I've not done anything to round the end of the heels off yet, but I'm planning to have a go on the basis that I can always rebuild the heel if needs be.

BTW, how do I attach a picture? It seems to require a url.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#235 Post by dw »

PhilipB1 wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:38 am BTW, how do I attach a picture? It seems to require a url.
No url needed. Just go to "full editor and preview". Under the edit window you will see two tabs--"options" and "attachments." Click on "attachments", click on "add files", a 'file explorer' window should open up and you will have to navigate to the directory on your computer where the photo is stored. Select it and open it and it will be uploaded to the forum
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Re: Tackling the heel

#236 Post by dw »

PhilipB1 wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:38 am Thanks for replying. Here's my thought process. ...
Well, as I say, this is not my remit but a few thoughts: if you walk barefoot on pavement you will develop a thick callus on you heel esp. in the strike zone. This is the result of the body trying to prevent the flesh of the foot from being worn down.

Some lasts are cut with a rounded profile in the heel seat region. Some say that provides the best fit, but it won't prevent the heel of the shoe from wearing in the heel strike zone...nothing will, not even rounding the heel stack.

I've made and repaired crepe soled shoes that had a pronounced cut-away at the back of the heel--still wears away right in that spot.

The shoe has to strike the ground somewhere and it will wear out there, regardless. I've heard it said that a woman in high heels strikes the ground with the same force per sq. inch as the weight of the Empire State building. :shocked:

And with no intent of to shoot you down (sic), I've had a variation of this discussion many times in other venues and IMO, it just illustrates a somewhat unreasonable and illogical perspective--that somehow shoes, and outsoles / heels should last forever...or can be made to last forever. At some point we get to a situation where we are armouring our shoe-- toe and heel plates, even toe caps made of steel. At what point might it not be better to just wear medieval armour--sabatons? With a half dozen judiciously positioned Tricounis on the outsole and heels.

"War is cruelty." ... leather will wear out (it's supposed to)... "There is no use trying to reform it." :oldnwise:
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Re: Tackling the heel

#237 Post by SharonKudrle »

No need for "war" DW, what are Troconis?
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Re: Tackling the heel

#238 Post by dw »

No war involved, really...just a fairly famous quote that I always thought superbly illustrated a certain fundamental realism and practicality--innocent of, or impervious to, the blandishments of contemporary 'magical thinking.'

As for tr-i-counis, they are a hard steel cleat we put on logger boots :
triconi_800x533.jpg
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Re: Tackling the heel

#239 Post by SharonKudrle »

Thank you, I just learned something new. Why are they called that?
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Re: Tackling the heel

#240 Post by dw »

I'm pretty sure it's a brand name.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#241 Post by PhilipB1 »

I like moving DW's emoji - looking forward to more of those.  I don't think I was clear in my last post.  All I want to do is to round the end of the heel off so that when the heel strikes the ground it's more of a rolling contact.  I've come to the conclusion that all I need to do is emulate curve that I get from normal heel wear. Which is not a lot and will probably not be noticeable to anyone put the keenest observer.

I'm in agreement about wear.  Wear is the abrasive result of grip, which is obviously essential.  The more grippy the material, the more it will wear.  I'm not trying to eliminate or reduce wear and will probably use a thinner more flexible top lift rubber to go round the curve.  It's an experiment - will see what happens.

The point about the Empire State Building vs stiletto heels is interesting.  I did a few calculations in case anyone is interested.  Here are the result in lb per square inch (or psi):

a) Empire State Building (ESB), based on footprint and mass of building from internet - 65 psi

b) One stiletto heel, 1/4" square, taking the weight of a 70kg lady - around 2500 psi

Note that the ESB has pile foundations which create a lot more surface area and spread the load, hence the actual pressure at any point is really very much less than 65 psi.

By comparison, here are pressures I calculated for a typical man's heel when the heel makes contact with ground.  The heel is at an angle of around 17 degrees and I measured the contact area to produce the results:

c) dress shoe heel with new leather top lift and no rubber (i.e. the edge of the leather top lift) - around 3800psi
d) dress heel with medium worn rubber - around 300 psi
e) a Churches deerskin shoe with foam rubber sole/heel, well worn - around 45 psi

And finally:
g) a single dress shoe, flat on a stair (all weight on one heel, none on the sole) - about 27psi

Since wear is directly related to pressure, psi, obviously the larger the contact area when the heel strikes the ground, the lower the rate of wear will be, so there is the option to use can use thinner or more grippier heel rubber for the same length of heel life.

So having concluded that I just need to round the end of the heel off similarly to normal heel wear, I'm wondering if the rounding should be in-line with the centre-line of the shoe or off-set like the heel rubber.  The commercial walking shoes have the rounding in the central of the heel, which makes me wonder if this is to avoid unduly influencing foot pronation (if that's the word)?

PS Would like to know more about those war shoes.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#242 Post by dw »

Well, just try it. Best advice I can give you. :lurk:
PhilipB1 wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:22 am
PS Would like to know more about those war shoes.
:wink_smile: No war shoes. See my response to Sharon...post #238 above.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#243 Post by nickb1 »

PhilipB1 wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:22 am
c) dress shoe heel with new leather top lift and no rubber (i.e. the edge of the leather top lift) - around 3800psi
Hi Philip,
Very interesting calcs. Not yet sure if you are comparing like for like here though. I can't help thinking I would prefer to have my hand walked over by a guy in new dress shoes than by a lady with new stiletto heels. Shouldn't it be the edge of the top piece of the stiletto that one needs to consider? Ouch!
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Re: Tackling the heel

#244 Post by nickb1 »

dw wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:21 pm "War is cruelty." ... leather will wear out (it's supposed to)... "There is no use trying to reform it." :oldnwise:
Just a couple of thoughts on this. In the past I've put 'blakeys' (a British brand of metal toe plates) on toes and heels to prevent wear. The result was that the leather distorted around the blakeys, so yes it prevented wear but caused other problems. I've also seen this happen with metal toe plates rebated into the sole. OTOH, all the modern top pieces have rubber in the back quarter to slow the wear, and this seems not to distort the surrounding leather. Recently I cut (and skived) a vibram / topy toe plate when the toes are wearing down and just stick it over the toe area and trim it off. It doesn't look that neat so probably not an approach for commercial clients compared to rebating it into the sole at the toe and re-finishing the toe area, but it's effective and quick for own use. In the past it seems a similar approach was to keep sticking or pegging scraps of sole leather over the toe area for a more economic fix than a resole. I've seen this on peasant shoes in a museum in Italy.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#245 Post by dw »

Something about our mechanistic/industrial society--I can't for the life of me understand why metal toe plates appeal more than rubber toe 'plates'...much less a leather toe piece. Rubber (or leather) can be inset into the outsole just the same as metal.

Of course, current fashion is build shoes on lasts with 'extended foreparts'. Where in the past three full sizes was considered an appropriate margin beyond the toe of the foot, nowadays it's more like four full sizes or even five. That's a big source of any extra-ordinary wear at the toe of the shoe. And I can't count the number of people who I've come across wearing shoes that were too long for them, many simply because they didn't know their own shoe size and were sold shoes that were too long in order to accommodate a width that the salesman didn't have in stock.

IMO, there's really no reason for toe plates or heel plates other than wanting to sound like a tank and tear up carpets. :greatnotion:
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Re: Tackling the heel

#246 Post by nickb1 »

dw wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:38 am And I can't count the number of people who I've come across wearing shoes that were too long for them, many simply because they didn't know their own shoe size and were sold shoes that were too long
Just add one more to that unknown number, as for a few years in my 20s I wore shoes 1.5 sizes too long! That's half an inch out. I don't recall how it happened. However, maybe the length error can only really work in one direction - as it's more painful to wear them too small and we don't expect our toes to hit the end?
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Re: Tackling the heel

#247 Post by nickb1 »

Here's an unusual way to do the "split lift" which I just came across on Instagram:
splitlift.jpg
Social media (such a misnomer) has its uses after all. The (French) author calls it a "couche-point".
The thing is it seems to me that all these serrations aren't necessary at all and presumably weaken the construction somewhat. It does look very elegant though, and I'm wondering if it facilitates a better fit of the split lift to the heel seat?
I was taught to cut several tringular notches in the split lift, starting at about half the width, then a couple of subsequent teachers showed me that with a slightly thinner strip you could just shape it with the hammer with no cut outs, which is how I'm doing them now.
I see that in Garsault it was originally a rectangular piece of leather with a single slit up the middle (hence "split"), presumably skived and splayed to achieve flatness at the heel. I'm curious whether the use of the strip instead came in as a leather-saving measure or for some other reason? Perhaps @das could shed some light on this?
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Re: Tackling the heel

#248 Post by dw »

@nickb1

I apologize to both you and @das for jumping in here--I also would very much like to hear what he has to say on this subject, but that being said, I'm not him. So forgive me for 'horning' in.

FWIW, I have played with several approaches. I was taught that on 'cowboy' boots with a pegged outsole (in the waist and around the heel) that a split lift was unnecessary. I suspect that's because the welt ends right behind the joint and at the start of the waist. So there is no need to maintain a 'line' or a consistent thickness around the heel--the outsole itself can be leveled and it flows into the waist.

That said, I am in agreement with you--I think cutting all those reliefs weakens the 'split lift' making it almost non-functional even if desirable for appearance's sake. It's almost like a 'bon-welt.' If so, why not use bon-welt?

It certainly does conserve leather, however, and I suspect that's the central reason it is done.

My own approach...FWIW...is to cut two interlocking horseshoe shapes which then can be skived and mounted with no strain or sacrifice of strength. I seriously doubt that all that much more leather is used.

Beyond that I am always skeptical of any technique that sacrifices even 'potential' strength or functionality for the sake of saving money, time or materials. Leather is a central resource--a means to an end, compromise the means and you've automatically compromised the end.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#249 Post by das »

Archaeologically (1700s-1800s) I've recorded both forms of split lift, i.e. the narrower-than-the-heel rectangle, split up the middle, wetted and splayed-out to the width needed, leaving a "V" shaped notch in the middle (a la Garsault), and the perhaps more economical narrow strip, bent round to form a "U" shape shown in the above photo. I have preferred the one split up the middle, but then I make historical repros, and it seems the more common type found archaeologically. The bent "U" ones, IIRC, date later, into the 1800s mostly.
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Re: Tackling the heel

#250 Post by nickb1 »

Thanks guys.
I take it @dw that you regard even the split lift formed from a strip (without any notches or reliefs) as inferior to the cut horseshoe shape, as the fibres are strained into shape? Since I was weaned on the strips as it were, I naively asked Bakers tannery what I could buy from them to use for these strips. They recommended offcuts ie waste scraps, which they sell by the pound. Seems consistent with this approach being a way to economise, though with the minute quantities I am making it's probably better just to buy more lift material ... I like the idea of cutting two interlocking horseshoe shapes. I guess these can be splayed out a bit if needed, would be intermediate between Garsault and the strip?
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