Pattern making

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ansesi
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Re: Pattern making

#1351 Post by ansesi »

Hi dw,

Can you please send me the pdf?. I am new in the forum and I cannot sent private messages, or I couldn't find how to. Find my dropbox details in the below quote.

Thanks in advance and happy shoemaking!

JJ
ansesi » Fri May 01, 2015 4:13 am wrote:Hi there,

Do you still have the pdf of the Patrick's book?. I am shoemaker in Barcelona and would like to have it. Perhaps you can put it on the dropbox cloud and share it with me. My dropbox user is jlopezlietor@gmail.com.

Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards,

JJ[

quote="vonallentx » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:15 pm"]I have a scan of the Patrick book. It's hi-res, pdf format. About 10.5 MB when zipped. If anyone is interested, let me know.
[/quote]
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Re: Pattern making

#1352 Post by dub »

I want to use the neat software Romango made for generating patterns with the Koleff method, http://www.romangoshoes.com/shoeweb/home.do.

I already have the Koleff Last Designing Manual, for making wooden lasts based on foot measurments.

However, there is also the Koleff Shoe and Boot Designing Manual, for making patterns from lasts.

Can I use the Tim Skyrme book instead, if I want to use the Romango software? I read Skyrme learned from Koleff, is his patterning method the same, the "geometric method"?

The Skyrme's book seems like the better book if I can only afford one.

I'm sure I should rather get both books, but I'm poor, so I have to pinch every penny.
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Re: Pattern making

#1353 Post by hidesmith »

I am finding myself in a position where I have created the upper patterns, but need to create the patterns in every size. I passed on Karl Kropf's last turning lathe, last blanks and scaling machine package years ago (and have kicked myself ever since), but I think that, now, I would welcome an opportunity to purchase such a machine, should the opportunity present itself - unless there's another way that I'm unaware of. Any ideas?
Thanks.
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Re: Pattern making

#1354 Post by paul »

George Koleff's Shoe &Boot Desgning Manual has pattern grading methods in Part E.
I know of some who have used it.
I hope this helps.
Paul
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Re: Pattern making

#1355 Post by mmiel »

Hi all,
I've got a chelsea boot pattern drawn up on the last, but have got some questions regarding lining techniques and I'd love some guidance. I'd like to line the whole boot in shearling, and am wondering how much (if any) extra allowance I might need to make to the outer pattern to accommodate the added thickness against the last. Has anyone got experience with such a thick lining? I'm thinking if need be I could trim the nap rather short for the forepart of the boot to minimize bulk, but my main concern is for the top of the boot, where I anticipate the most extreme distortions from the extra material.
Thoughts?
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Re: Pattern making

#1356 Post by RodMomtazi »

Hello,

I am in the process of making baby/children's shoes and Im in need of a chart for measuring the SLL off of a bare last as well as the ankle bone height and 'back height' for any given last size. Is there any resources out there to this end?
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Re: Pattern making

#1357 Post by dw »

As I understand it SLL has little or no universal rational. It is based on British sizing and is not readily applicable for diverse toe styles, much less for American sizing.

As a general rule, however, Sabbage's Sectionizer is the closest thing there is to a set of guidelines for finding the SLL regardless of the shape and origin of the last. That's because it finds the SLL from the foot. After all, the last must be modeled to fit the foot, not vice versa.

Theoretically it should apply to children's lasts as well although I do not have any first hand experience putting that theory to the test. It does work...admirably...for adult feet, however. And since it is, fundamentally, a mathematical relationship, it should work for any foot.
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Re: Pattern making

#1358 Post by licere »

Hello All,

Can anyone point me to resources for patterns and/or construction of tall riding boots (e.g., field, dress and dressage)? I do have Patrick's Modern Pattern Cutting and Design, which includes a pattern for a men's riding boot. Other than that, the closest I'm finding are more generic-seeming tall pull-on or dress boot patterns, such as in Koleff. Thanks!

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Vamp to boot top

#1359 Post by Nate186 »

Im making my first pair of pull on boots. Watched every video imaginable. But cant figure out how to sew the vamp to the top. Any suggestions?
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Re: Vamp to boot top

#1360 Post by dw »

Nate186 wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:31 pm Im making my first pair of pull on boots. Watched every video imaginable. But cant figure out how to sew the vamp to the top. Any suggestions?
It can be done with a flatbed or it can be done with a post machine.
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Re: Pattern making

#1361 Post by Nate186 »

But if I lay the flat vamp on the flat boot top, the side if the vamp is at an angle rather than parallel to the ground. Does this make sense?
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Re: Pattern making

#1362 Post by paul »

Well, you're right about your concern that it should be parallel to the ground.
But parallel changes with the heel height of the last you're working with,
as well as how the patterns you are working with are designed to adjust for heel height so that the boot sits up straight.

The system I learned from DW adjusts for heel height buy how that quarter line (as we're calling that line) is cut. There is an adjustment we make with the template before we cut that curve so it will ideally be parallel to the ground.
I am aware that Paul Bond boots (at least used to be) cut from a different pattern for each heel height desired. Other makers even adjust for heel height by the heel draft.

Could it be that somewhere in your instruction the answer lies?
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Re: Pattern making

#1363 Post by licere »

Hello All,

For a western boot that includes a decorative collar along the tops of the shafts, does one construct the collar as overlays atop otherwise normal top panels? Or should the collar be integrated into the the pattern for the top panels themselves?
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Re: Pattern making

#1364 Post by dw »

It can be done either way. Most commonly it is an overlay where the top edge of the collar and the top edge of the top panel are congruent. That said, the top edge of the top panel can be skived fairly thin so as to blend in with the collar but still be caught in the stitching along the top of the boot.
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Re: Pattern making

#1365 Post by licere »

Thanks DW! I'm sticking with it after my three-week course with you (Peter M.). I continue to appreciate your knowledge and wisdom.
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Re: Pattern making

#1366 Post by carsten »

Having notoriously too few time I was thinking of some short cuts, that I would like to share with you. Usually I prepare my patterns with inkscape, print the pattern on paper, glue the paper on cardboard or a thin wooden panel, cut the carboard or panel to size. In order not to destroy the pattern I normally don’t trace the edge of the pattern directly with a knife into the leather. Instead I put the pattern on the leather and either draw copy the patter directly onto the leather by means of a pen if I am using light colored leather or copy the pattern using whit saral transfer paper, if the leather is dark.
All this I find a bit cumbersome and lengthy, especially when it comes to making any Brogue-patterns. Therefore, I was wondering if there is not an easier method using techniques from the tattoo field. I myself have none and am for different reasons not particularly fond of them, but I have to admit that the pictures that are stitched into the skin are sometimes amazingly elaborate. Too me those tattoo artists have the same problem as the shoemaker, which is how to transfer a precise image onto the leather, with high detail and without any distortions.
Turns out the tattoo guys make their life easy by the old spirit duplicator technique (see : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_duplicator). Now thermal printers are used, that print on a “Spirit transfer paper” , which is basically a dye saturated wax sheet.
Now, similar to a laser printer, the thermal printer will heat the wax sheet only at the dots to be printed, whereby the dye-wax-dot is transferred onto a clean transfer sheet. Afterwards a thin alcohol layer is applied onto the skin and the transfer paper is stuck onto the skin. Since the alcohol on the skin solves the dye in the wax dot, the dye can be transferred onto the skin and serves the tattoo guys as a mask for their stitching.
Hoping that I don’t brake any taboos here, but why not use this method also for shoemaking? To me it appears almost ideal to transfer any elaborate pattern/ stitching lines or alignment marks onto the leather.
Here is the basic process illustrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66pSfLGhXZE
What is your opinion on this?

Best regards, Carsten
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Re: Pattern making

#1367 Post by dw »

Not sure what kind of patterning you're doing...nor why you want to make it even more complicated. When I make the 'standard' (from the mean forme) for a pair of shoes, I do it on a manila file folder, although any similar paperboard would work. When I want to take cutting patterns from the standard, I simply use a piece of tracing paper (you can buy it in rolls) for each pattern--vamp, quarter, and so forth, adding seam allowances, etc., as i go. IMO, this affords maximum accuracy. Then I cement the tracing paper patterns to another piece of manila folder. I can cut my leather pieces around these manila folder patterns with similar accuracy and little or no fear of cutting into the pattern, itself...provided, of course, that I am awake and focused.

Such patterns can also be moved around on a hide and powdered around (simple talc powder or blue mason's chalk) to adjust for cutting efficiency or to be sure you don't inadvertently cut your pattern with a scratch or warble hole in it or where the leather has been damaged on the flesh side. All that wipes off with a soft towel, no harm no foul.

I would caution against anything alcohol related because if it can solve wax/ink, it can often solve the finish on some leathers...much of which is wax based.

I would also caution against silver and white ink pens such as are marketed as 'removable' and for leather. They aren't always...at least not readily. There are watercolour pencils (I think mentioned a couple of brands in the Sources subform) that I have bought and use in white that come off a treat. Never a worry. But in a pinch simple artists watercolour pencils (in many colours) will work. But be sure they are water soluble.

YMMV...
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Re: Pattern making

#1368 Post by carsten »

Thanks for the answer dw. I did not know about the talc powder trick. Believe me I have no intention to make things more complicated what so ever :-) Already I find it complicated enough as it is.

As for the traditional method one has to still cut out the pattern on the manila folder itself or punch all full-brogue holes into it, which could be dispensed with if one had a method to directly print the pattern onto the leather.

I thought the thermo-printer concept might be very handy when it comes to elaborate full-brogue hole patterns or fancy cowboy boots with lots of under-/ and overlays. Only of course if the cut-out patterns are available on the computer in the first place. Since I am not a gifted artist I like to do this anyway.

I guess you are probably right about the effects of the alcohol on the leather. I bet though one could simply iron the pattern onto the leather at low heat - its just that the regular tattoo customer probably does not like to be ironed on. In this case, instead of transfering the dye only, the dye-saturated wax -having a low melting point- would be transfered onto the leather and the pattern could not be reused anymore.

This way the entire pattern could be ironed onto the leather in one go, plus the wax might stick well on the leather and not be rubbed off easily during the following cut-out or hole punching procedure.

Maybe one day I will poke my head into a tattoo shop and ask them to print a pattern for me to try the idea. I think its worth a shot.

Carsten
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Re: Pattern making

#1369 Post by dw »

Well, I wish you luck, truly I do.

I do not mean to criticize or even impose my perspectives upon you. I mean no disrespect and in the following remarks the word "you" is used in a non-personal, generic sense. I beg your pardon in advance if my remarks seem objectionable.

That said, I feel compelled to point out that shoemaking, as a Trade, goes back for 10,000 years. If there were an easier way it probably would have already been discovered. Thing is...and here I digress into speculation...it is ultimately fruitless and frustrating trying to come up with faster, easier or newer ways to approach or replace ancient and venerable techniques. Think about what you're really trying to do...make it easier on yourself? I can't believe that any real or significant uptick in accuracy is really and truly in the offing unless critical skills are so wanting or so unachievable by human hands as to be non-existent.

Every time you (he/they) cut out a pattern from the manila folder, you exercise your eyes and your perceptions and your fine motor skills. If nothing else, it's practice--and you know what they say about practice. The same is true with the broguing: If you do it in manila folder before you do it in leather, you'll better understand the limitations or difficulties of the pattern and, simultaneously, you'll increase your fine motor skills. Consider it 'practice' for the real thing...and you know what they say about practice.

Decorative pattern such broguing and the stitching on boot tops can be transferred to the leather with a technique known as 'pouncing.' This goes back to the Renaissance, if not further, and was the technique that Michelangelo used to transfer his patterns to the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

For boot tops, I draw out my ornamental pattern and then copy it using tracing paper, which I then rubber cement to a piece of manila fo9lder. Then....and this is significant...I stitch the manila folder without using any thread (just making holes). Then I lay the pattern out on the leather and powder through the holes--that's "pouncing.' But the significant part is that while I am stitching / holing the manila folder, I am practicing...and you know what they say about.....

It is the self-same quandary as I addressed in another post recently--you can use Exacto knives or you can hone your knife skills. Learn to sharpen a knife to the point that it is as sharp or sharper than an Exacto knife and thereby acquire the fine motor skills that will serve you for a lifetime when clicking or skiving or whatever; or abandon all hope of ever achieving any real mastery...almost across the board, esp. if such expediency is indicative of an innate tendency.

Beyond that, you can draw out all sorts of fanciful and beautiful inlay or overlay patterns--wondrous works of Art, no doubt. You can even use a program like CorelDraw or Illustrator to compose, clean up and execute the design. But it will still have to be proofed; and chances are good that without some perspective on what is doable---what the leather is capable of, what the sewing machine is capable of, what you yourself are capable of, you'll find that your best patterns are simply awkward 'traps' that are not doable. And you may not find that out until you start cutting or sewing the pattern for real.

I received an order some years ago for a pair of boots with a flamingo wading in a marsh, with cattails and reeds all around...all inlaid / overlaid on the tops. I drew up the pattern and it was beautiful. But when I really got down to it, I realized it couldn't be done. Not without making the reeds look more like fence post than swamp grass. Overlaid, the tips of the reeds were so thin and so acutely pointed, I could not stitch down into those tips without splitting the leather or leaving a significant loose chad of the reed unstitched. Inlaid, the intersections / criss-crossings between any two sets of reeds created the very same problem. The only way the pattern could be done was to do the vegetation in several lines of green stitching.

I'm sure all this sounds rather highfalutin' and maybe even pompous--you have to make your own way in this world/Trade. But perhaps it is well to remember that the Traditions...all traditions ...evolve and become traditions for a reason and almost always after many wrong turns are taken, much hair pulled and a certain necessary dedication and experience based persistence of vision applied.

I guess, ultimately, it depends on what your goal is.
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Re: Pattern making

#1370 Post by carsten »

Hi DW, over here its late and we just received guests, which will stay for the next couple of days – so unfortunately, I won´t be able to answer as detailed as I wish at the moment. Nevertheless, I thank you for your honest response. Don’t worry I don’t feel disrespected but am very glad and thankful that you are taking the time to give a novice advice. I take your suggestions seriously and hate to imagine that I lack the basic skills. Regarding your comment on knifes for example, I thought before that I can reasonably well sharpen a knife and skive leather by hand. Nevertheless, feeling kind of odd after your post I sat down and sharped all my knifes over again and skived a couple of pieces of leather just to feel confident with myself. Still I am waiting for my hair on my arm to grow back, which I shaved off to test the sharpened knifes……(Surely there exists also a better method for testing this…) I have highest respect for the trade and have no doubt that it has cost a lot of people a lot of practice, work and nerves to develop the tools and methods that proved themselves over the years for shoe making. I do understand your point.
Being an engineer, I was simply trying to do what engineers usually do. Come up with a solution for a problem they have. I see your point about sharpening the skills by practice and I agree. Please understand that I do have no intention at all to discredit any of the proven methods. I am learning as I go.
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Re: Pattern making

#1371 Post by carsten »

FYI, I was made aware of this free pattern making tutorial:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... raeparatio

(Original: https://www.ostechnik.de/2-uncategorise ... raeparatio)

which was made to prepare students for starting the master school of shoe making. It focuses on the pattern making technique developed by Siebenlehen, which appears to be a technique frequently used in Germany.
Various models are covered and the model of the Siebenlehen-angle itself can possibly be reproduced / reverse engineered from the various pdf-files if you have difficulties buying the angle.

I think most is straight forward and self-explanatory but I assume google translate could help to translate some of the instructions to English.

I have not yet made a shoe with this technique and I don´t know how it compares to the techniques other people use, but maybe this could serve as a starting point and help to get going in pattern making.
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Re: Pattern making

#1372 Post by dw »

@carsten

Unfortunately, the link provided for the Google translation PDF won't download--Google (?) says it is too long. So I haven't been able to read or evaluate the tutorial you linked to.

That said, for years I used a geometric method for making patterns for high top shoes / boots. I was given a book detailing the technique that was supposed to have come from the BATA museum. It didn't use a modelwinkle though, just a straight-edge, a protractor and a tape measure.

I adapted it to my purposes and it worked very well esp. for laying out tops. And I never had a problem with the fit of the vamps either.

So such systems do work, although having then worked with the English method of patterning--direct from the last--I think I would always choose the direct patterning method over the geometric method for shoes. And perhaps use some blending of the two approaches for high top boots.

There is an old saying in the Trade--"The last comes first." With the English method, you are essentially making a one-to-one topographical map. With the geometric system (or at least the ones that i am familiar with) the last is almost superfluous. I suspect that any time you can directly derive patterns from the object you want to cover as opposed to abstracting and / or divorcing the process from it, you are going to be miles ahead.

IMO... YMMV...
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Re: Pattern making

#1373 Post by carsten »

@dw yes sorry about the language. I guess if google can not translate it one has to consult the original pdf file, which is only in German. Should anybody be interested, I might be able to help translating it.
My impression is that this Siebenlehn modelwinkel is a very well established method over here, since all the big suppliers are selling it. Nevertheless, I agree that a best fit can probably be obtained by fitting the real last.
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Re: Pattern making

#1374 Post by dw »

Not sure one approach is more difficult (or better) than the other, although I do tend to regard the geometric method as a little more time-consuming and ultimately, a little less 'reliable' depending on how accurate (to the foot) the last is. Either way, it come down to the last and how well we model the foot within the last.
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Re: Pattern making

#1375 Post by PhilipB1 »

Quick question about Chukka boots... can anyone tell me what sort of "ideal" gap the facings should have at the lacing?
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