Correcting common foot problems

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#226 Post by gshoes » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:19 am

Jask,

I fogot that you also asked about insole materials. I have of course, veg tanned and chrome tanned leather. I have 3/16" polypropelene sheets and a small convection oven. I am half way through constructing a vacum frame. I have been told not to use carbon fiber steel because of the danger caused when grinding on it. Wouldnt an ordinary particle respirator aleviate the danger? I want to place an order for some heat activated insole material but I am unclear about the many choices available. What thickness and what durometer.
Geri

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#227 Post by jask » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:45 pm

Hi Geri I do not think the vacuum frame will do you much good for the insole however if you wanted to pull a check shell for the upper it will be handy.Carbon fibre in and of itself does not pose a serious health risk,it is a respiratory irritant at high concentrations (so is sawdust), but it is actually the materials used to size the fibre, or the resin or thermoplastic it is combined with to manufacture "ready to use composites" that poses a greater risk. All of that aside I will forward you some samples of material that you can play with.The type of materials that are commonly used for non-rigid foot orthotics can be heated in a 350 degree oven and then molded to the cast by laying the sheet of material on the sole then using an Ace or tensor bandage to quickly wrap the sheet of material snuggly against the cast.

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#228 Post by gshoes » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:36 pm

Jask,

I did use the polypropelene sheets on a wooden last that I made. I transferred the contours of the bottom of slipper cast that was used for the orthotics to the last. I used some 4 ounce veg tanned leather as an insole. I bought some ov gloves and used my oven at 325 degrees. I used the ace bandages and got some results. I had to grind them down to shape. I had a hard time getting them to the proper temp without having it stick to the oven grates. Any suggestions on that?
I look forward to seeing the samples.
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Geri

jtoth4

Re: Correcting common foot problems

#229 Post by jtoth4 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:32 am

I just finished my first pair of boots. They were for a custom order for a Infantry Maj. War of 1812. I must take time to thank indirectly DW. I have never meet you, but your inforative tape on crimping, (after watching 22 times) helped me with the pictured lined boots.
As a result, I have another order for the same boot. My new clinent has a foot problem. He walkes heavy on the outside edge of his heels and informed me that a leather heel walking on gravel would wear in one day.
Is there a fix that I can build into the boot to correct this condition?

Thank You,
Joe Toth

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#230 Post by dw » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:49 pm

Joe,

Are you referring to the tape made at AGM several years ago? That's the only one I can think of. I'm glad it helped. It is a while ago now and I think I've refined that process even more in the intervening years.

I'm way over my head in this topic as I am not a specialist with problem feet. But until a real one comes along...as a sort of "rough and ready" approach to the problem you describe, you might try wedging the medial heel on the last before making the boots....or perhaps cut a wedge on the lateral heel of the last. Either way you'd shift the weight of the foot and the heel strike medially.

That's what I would do but I might end up crippling the customer too...who knows? They say you can cripple a horse...or double its running speed...simply by the way you trim the hoof.


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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#231 Post by jtoth4 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:40 am

You were wright, the tape was from the 2001 Delavan, WI meeting, Crimping the Full Wellington Boot. I truned to the tape after watching two boot makers, and three failed tries. thank you for your help both on tape and email.
Here is the picture of my fourth attempt.
:
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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#232 Post by donrwalker » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:04 am

Joe,

I am a pedorthist. What your customer really needs is orthotics. I would not recomend wedging the heel, although if you do wedge, DW is correct, you should wedge medially. Another thing you might try is build your heel base level but set your rubber heel cap lateraly. In other words set his contact point a little to the outside. Hope this helps

Don

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#233 Post by paul » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:25 am

Joe,


Congratulations on the completion of your first boots, and welcome to the 'Brotherhood of the Full Cut'. Those certainly look parade ready.

I'd like to suggest a treatment of the heel for your new customer that won't take you into an area where your lack of knowledge could get you in trouble or, heaven forbid, cause any harm to him or be wrong in any way.

First let me say, I'm a dealer for White's Boots, the preferred boots for Wildland Fire Fighters, made in Spokane, Wa. When I have a customer who runs over the side of their heels, the only thing White's will do is "off set" the heel base. They won't do any kind of wedging for customers they don't meet personaly, if even then.
Basically what they do is flare the side of the heel base. The base still has the same logger shape in the back and medial side, however the lateral side, or for that matter, it could be the medial side in other cases, is flared outward, creating a "buttress" of sorts. The customer is not being shifted around in any corrective manner, it's just not so easy to run the heel over, and will keep him, or her, in the middle of the heel a little longer. It's not so invasive as a wedge, tho not corrective either.

Many of us have seen Paul Bond boots and other "buckaroos", done this way as well.

I'd be interested in pedorthic input on this, but it seems like a good solution to your customer's issues while you're still a novice at making.

Paul

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#234 Post by paul » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:29 am

Don,

Please excuse me. I just reread what you suggested and I see that we seem to be refering to the same treatment.

My apologies,
Paul

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#235 Post by donrwalker » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:21 am

Paul,

No problem.

We are saying the same thing, just using different words. One of the disadvantages to trying to comunicate verbally things that would be very easy to demonstrate in person.

Joe

I would like to repeat. Wedging is not a good solution. If you have ever worked with horses you know that with a weanling or even a yearling you can straighten out a crooked leg somewhat by corrective trimming on a hoof, but if you try the same thing on a mature horse you will quite likely make him lame.

Don

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#236 Post by fred_coencped » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:31 am

Don,Joe,Paul and DW,
Joe,Use a long lateral heel counter with the lateral heel flare.
Dw`s suggestion of the medial heel wedging is perhaps better done internally at dispense,the net effect is bringing the ground to the medial heel for the high arched foot[Supinated foot] and supporting the medial heel in the low arched foot[Pronated foot].
The medial wedge is effective for the flexible flat foot and the high arched foot too.The high arched foot is more difficult then the flexible[congenital or acquired]flat foot,but both respond well to the medial wedge.
Generally it is the high arched foot that rolls over the lateral side of footwear.

Basic Bio-Mechanics 101
Pronation and Supination are motion on 3 planes,like an X,Y Z axis.
Sagital,Frontal and Transverse are the 3 planes of motion.
The sagital plane is Plantarflexion and Dorsiflection.
The frontal plane is Inversion and Eversion.
The Transverse plane is Ad-duction and Ab-duction.Latin AB Away fom the midline of the body.AD toward the mid line of the body.

SO Pronation,Sagital plane is Dorsiflection.
Frontal plane is Eversion.
Transverse plane is Ab-duction.

And Supination,Sagital plane is Plantarflexion.
Frontal plane is Inversion.
Transverse plane is Ad-duction.

If you want ,look at your foot range of motion in maximally pronated and supinated full range of motion.
Sit in a chair,and make big circles with your big toe by rolling your ankle joint.
Pronated,the footlooks like this ,
Dorsiflection the toes move toward the knee.
Eversion the ankle rolls inward,and
Ab-duction the toes turn outward,

Supinated,the foot loks like this
Plantarflection the toes point down
Inversion the ankle rolls outward,and
Ad-duction the toes turn inward.

Pronation and Supination occur at the sub-talor joint[STJ] and mid-tarsal joints [MTJ`s]both longitudinal and oblique.
And finally note the 1st and the 5th metatarsals
also have motion on 3 planes,therefore move against the mid-tarsal bones And the middle 3 metatarsal bones move on the sagital plane much like our knee joint in dorsiflexion and plantar flexion.

Alignment of the rearfoot to forefoot relationships is where foot problems and pain result.Overcompensation occurs when the forefoot is inverted against the rearfoot that is everted, and vice versa.Simply about 90% of normal gait is and can be controlled with the medial wedge,Observation of gait should reveal the entire forefoot pushing off the ground evenly.
Frontal plane bio-mechanics in the forefoot is very important as through the entire gait cycle and how the foot leaves the ground.
Simply put the foot pronates at heel strike and supinates at heel lift to toe off.
OK,I hope this helps,Fred

jtoth4

Re: Correcting common foot problems

#237 Post by jtoth4 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:38 pm

Thank you all for for your responces. I thought that I had acheived a platoe by crimpping. The last answer from Fred Coen, on foot enineering, will take a few more readings. I will take to hart the advice of not doing something that could produce a more serious problem.

My first thoughts were not to correct the problem but slow down the rapped heel ware.
Again thank you all for your responces.

Joe

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#238 Post by sorrell » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:48 pm

I've had two customers in the past week ask about putting a thin cushion material over the insole in the ball area. They like the arch support in my boots but are wondering if they could have a little cushion under the ball. I've never liked putting a cushioned insole into my boots after they're built. It looks ugly and covers up a perfectly good leather insole.

I've been thinking about wrapping the insole with a thin vegetable tanned leather and sandwiching the cushion between. This would allow me to only put the cushioning in the ball area if I wanted. Am I thinking right? Is this going to work or is there a better way?

Lisa

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#239 Post by donrwalker » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:32 pm

Lisa

The reason they usually ask for cushion under the ball is they are experiencing a burning sensation or pain on the ball of the foot. What causes this is a collapse of the transverse arch, often due to age. The most useful remedy I've found is a metatarsal pad. This sits just behind the ball (met heads). It shifts the weight bearing from the met-heads to the long bones. I like the idea of sandwiching the pad.

Hope this helps

Don

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#240 Post by relferink » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:32 pm

Lisa,

Adding padding under the ball is certainly something that will improve the comfort for most of your customers and adding a metatarsal pad as Don suggests give you a structural relieve to high pressure under the metatarsal heads. I use a combination of both techniques frequently with great success.

I understand your hesitation to adding a cushioned insole over a perfectly good leather insole and you will loose most of the benefit of the leather insole as soon as you add any type of padding, if for no other reason that that you have to cement it down and close up the insole with the cement.
The other element you have to consider is that when you add padding before lasting and you last with a firm hand (as it should be IMO) you will compress the padding and loose some volume in your boot. I add to the forefoot volume on my lasts when I add padding to the metatarsal area in a footbed. Rule of thumb for me is for a quarter inch padding I add a full centimeter in the circumference measurement, more if I use a particular firm leather that is going to take more persuasion to shape over the last.
Make a fitter and try it to figure out how much you need to adjust your volume with a given amount of padding. A good padding material to use is Poron, it's a urethane foam that is durable and easy to work with. Some finders carry it or look at a pedorthic supply outfit.

Wrapping the insole with veg tan is an option but as you cement it down you still create a barrier between the foot and the insole, taking away from it's ability to absorb moister. For an alternative consider wool felt, it provides padding and it's natural fibers will not interfere with the benefit a great leather insole offers.

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#241 Post by fred_coencped » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:56 am

Lisa,
Don`s met pad is a very good suggestion and Robs insights into poron and felt also good in terms of absorption and cushion.
As after the fact of producing the boot ,I would add a 'toe tap and make it thinned to a feather to Sulcus,that is the space where the toes meet the metatarsals.Also feathered from just before the metatarsal heads. I like the idea of felt and even a felt metatarsal pad from Hapad,tel# 800 544-2723.They also supply 1/8th " moleskin[felt].They may also supply poron sheet material and met pads of poron..
A 2/3oz.cream cow over your poron met pad and 1/8",will provide very adequate cushioning and will not bottom out because of the rebound quality of poron.Also the leather will keep the structual integrity of your Toe Tap.
Felt would absorb moisture and poron will not.

In short I suggest the hapad felt met pad[they will provide placement instuctions on the package] with poron paddingand cream cow top cover.It is best to rubber cement to your insole to prevent any shifting.Of course you can always start your customized insole/sock liner with the poron cushioning from heel to sulcus and maintain your heel to ball relatioship.The added cushion for a tender foot will probably be welcmed by the wearer.

I hope this helps,Fred

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#242 Post by sorrell » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:49 am

Don, Rob and Fred,
Thank you so much for all of your suggestions and advice. I won't be making either of these boots immediately so I won't have any feedback for a while. But I wanted to ask well in advance so I'd have time to think about the answers and order any supplies I might need.

Lisa

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#243 Post by paul » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:35 am

Lisa,

If I could go back to your initial post where you said,
"I've had two customers in the past week ask about putting a thin cushion material over the insole in the ball area. They like the arch support in my boots but are wondering if they could have a little cushion under the ball. I've never liked putting a cushioned insole into my boots after they're built."

Me either.

When I'm asked about cusion insoles, I have a standard demonstration that has become how I address this issue. I begin by telling my customer that I measure "just snug never tight", at all the points of fit, except at the waist. And then I show why I measure "quite snug" here. I place my thumb and forefinger just behind the knuckles of my other hand and squeeze, and show them what happens when I do so. It demonstrates how the transverse arch is actually aided to be what it's supposed to do. And I explain that by fitting them "quite snug" here the pressure is taken off of the metatarsuls. Which is where they usually feel the need for cushioning. Further comparison to todays footwear not fitting properly, requiring the difference to be made up by cushioning, supports my point.

Of course, I let them know that if they insist or have some special need, I can provide enough room for their cushion insoles. And the suggestions provided here are good for that.

I've tried met pads for myself to see how it feels, and it would take a serious need to make me feel like I'd be willing to put up with it until I got used to it.

I don't mean to contradict the comments of our specialists, by any means. I just thought I'd address it from the point of view of my initial conversations with customers as you described.

Paul's two cents

mmboots

Re: Correcting common foot problems

#244 Post by mmboots » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:43 pm

Lisa,

I've done some boots with the cusion insole, which I add when taking the measurements. However I try to talk the person out of doing this, if I can. Making boots the way we do, I haven't found anything that will wear like a good leather insole. I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is if you put a cusion in the ball area and cover it during the building of the boot, then it can't be replaced when the cover wears out. Hope this helps.

Mike

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#245 Post by jenny_fleishman » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:05 pm

Interesting...re running shoes being good for the feet, bad for pretty much everything else!

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-01/ehs-rsm010410.php

Jenny

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#246 Post by j_johansen » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:03 pm

Jenny & All,
Funny, I was thinking of posting a similar thread just this morning. Have you read or heard of the new book "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall? Facinating read.....
Cheers, J.

luckyduck

Re: Correcting common foot problems

#247 Post by luckyduck » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:44 am

I have given the "how much padding is too much" question a lot. After having worn mostly running shoes for years because of an overuse foot injury (fallen met arch) I am now wearing western boots with no padding (made using DW's recipe) almost exclusively. It took about 2 weeks for the bones in my foot to line back up, but now my feet rarely hurt and they did pretty much all the time before. Weird.

Maybe one of us should try out the new Vibram Five Fingers "shoes". (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/ ). My yoga teacher loves them, but I haven't had the nerve to try them yet

Paul.

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#248 Post by j_johansen » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:19 am

Paul,
After reading about running shoes in "Born to Run", Last night I went for a four mile run in my Addidas slip-on skate shoes. They are flat soled, no padding, rubber sole about 3/8 thick. This morning my legs are sore a little, and my feet feel fine.
J.

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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#249 Post by romango » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:08 pm

I recently posted my version of the huarache running sandal modeled on those worn by the Tarahumara Indians described in "Born To Run".

I have been running in them and they work great. You have to run landing on your forefoot rather than heel. This seems to eliminate any issue of pronation and jarring heel strike.

But it take a lot of getting used to. You have to build up slowly.
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Re: Correcting common foot problems

#250 Post by fred_coencped » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:36 pm

Jenny,
I see studies like this one a lot.Running is excellent for health.Barefoot on the beach is the best from my experience.Walking and running with any heel height above 0 is not natural like barefoot.

I wish the study included a O inches heel pitch with and without custom insoles.There exist what I call fudge factors in a Brooks Adrenaline with their 55 to 60 duromoter midsole and outsole materials that breakdown and compress on high impact.

Maybe, truth be told overall in nature we are barefoot and I have always felt from the early 70`s that the flat hippie sandal evolved from Egypt and the american Indian mocassin were our healthiest ever footwear.

I would suggest the new and innovative revolutionary running shoe designs follow the sprinting shoe, flat in design and good for heel,midfoot and toe strikers.The insole of course vegetable leather and the outsole 75 to 80 durometer.Then the comparative study might show a different outcome.

Jenny,I would concede to the study and your expession"bad for everything else".
Thanks for sharing this study.
Fred

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