OK. So I still don't really understand you point clealy. You explained a few thing, but still don't know you opinion about this: (and please you, silent reader - join and answer!) Let me start a small survey:
So:
1. Do you think that a someone, sho call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade? (yes/no)
3. If "Mater Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
And a final one:
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now? (yes/no)
______________________
Please take a minute to answer these questions. It seems that only 3 people in this forum are interested in this topic, but it is surely not true. Maybe we are just too loud, or talk too much - so you can't hear your voices.
apprenticeships and schooling
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das
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling
DW,
Oh I know well your feelings about "business", and the "factory" mentality versus the "artisanal". To me it's a sliding scale from one extreme to another, but with many settings in the middle. Maybe another way of looking at this is: most one-man-band shoe/bootmakers I have asked admit that around 50 pairs a year is their comfortable maximum output--one pair per week with 2 weeks off for vacation I guess. At that level of production, each pair (clear profit on) needs to represent 1/52 of your annual weekly income. Depending where you live, living costs, and the standard of living you aspire to...... This places the price per pair so high relatively, that your products are a luxury, so consequently you are forced to make, or try to make, "Luxe" quality shoes/boots for the wealthy client. And as we see on the Forum Gallery all the time, there're are quite a few highly talented makers in the several areas of footwear made today. My fear is, if we set the bar that high for all, shoe/bootmaking in the Western World will end up merely a bespoke "Luxe" trade, employing only a tiny handful.
If you trained your husband/wife to assist (like Randee does your tops), a few of your children and family members (all non-waged), could you treble your output? If you then added an apprentice-helper trainee, or a wage-paid journeyman? But all this takes volume greater than 50 pairs a year, plus some business sense.
I dunno, I just think there're more shades in the middle than your either/or approach that can increase volume/profit without compromising quality. If the only acceptable quality shoe or boot must be made from measurements to final buffing by just one pair of hands (your own), we're not only rejecting thousands of years of our own tradition, multi-worker shops, divisions of labor that allowed a high degree of achievement in, say, closing (e.g. Devlin), but trying to make a romantic working model that never succeeded in the past succeed today when the tide has turned further against us.
I'm thinking more of the newbees here just getting started, or flirting with the idea of getting into our trade. Necessarily only a tiny few will ever make it to the highest levels/standards to begin with. Are we aiming at making 19th-20thc "prize-work" or "High Street" standards the 21stc. bench-mark standard across the board? Anything less and you've betrayed the philosophy?
Oh I know well your feelings about "business", and the "factory" mentality versus the "artisanal". To me it's a sliding scale from one extreme to another, but with many settings in the middle. Maybe another way of looking at this is: most one-man-band shoe/bootmakers I have asked admit that around 50 pairs a year is their comfortable maximum output--one pair per week with 2 weeks off for vacation I guess. At that level of production, each pair (clear profit on) needs to represent 1/52 of your annual weekly income. Depending where you live, living costs, and the standard of living you aspire to...... This places the price per pair so high relatively, that your products are a luxury, so consequently you are forced to make, or try to make, "Luxe" quality shoes/boots for the wealthy client. And as we see on the Forum Gallery all the time, there're are quite a few highly talented makers in the several areas of footwear made today. My fear is, if we set the bar that high for all, shoe/bootmaking in the Western World will end up merely a bespoke "Luxe" trade, employing only a tiny handful.
If you trained your husband/wife to assist (like Randee does your tops), a few of your children and family members (all non-waged), could you treble your output? If you then added an apprentice-helper trainee, or a wage-paid journeyman? But all this takes volume greater than 50 pairs a year, plus some business sense.
I dunno, I just think there're more shades in the middle than your either/or approach that can increase volume/profit without compromising quality. If the only acceptable quality shoe or boot must be made from measurements to final buffing by just one pair of hands (your own), we're not only rejecting thousands of years of our own tradition, multi-worker shops, divisions of labor that allowed a high degree of achievement in, say, closing (e.g. Devlin), but trying to make a romantic working model that never succeeded in the past succeed today when the tide has turned further against us.
I'm thinking more of the newbees here just getting started, or flirting with the idea of getting into our trade. Necessarily only a tiny few will ever make it to the highest levels/standards to begin with. Are we aiming at making 19th-20thc "prize-work" or "High Street" standards the 21stc. bench-mark standard across the board? Anything less and you've betrayed the philosophy?
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das
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Marcell,
I wasn't sure whether we were supposed to reply on-line on the Forum, or privately to you, so here're my thoughts:
As I said yesterday on the Forum, The HCC is in discussions with our parent-guild, The Worshipful Company of Cordwainers (London) on the possibility of us acting as a remote testing agent for The City & Guilds of London certificates in hand-shoemaking, opening that level of training and certification up to all of those in North America. And if this works out, we will be using the C&G skill levels, titles, etc. I'm not sure whether they have a "masters" degree as their highest rating.
1. Do you think that a someone, sho call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
Yes, but only if there is a legal requirement/implication to the title in the country in question--in US currently there is none.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade? (yes/no)
Since there are no legal requirements/implications here, there is no way to control this. But "yes" if the person has demonstrated a high skill level (judged by peers), and trains others.
3. If "Mater Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
"Use existing model" of The City & Guilds, London. If our discussions with London fail, we would consider other European models, sure. Inventing a new US one from scratch is unlikely to happen. Then there's the question of who will enforce it--prevent non-certified "masters" from calling themselves masters anyway? It would need legal clout to be of any value, and the American mind-set is perhaps too free-thinking to support the European level of licensing ("we don't need no stinkin' badges!"
.
And a final one:
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now? (yes/no)
It depends on the credential, title, etc., privileges conveyed or restricted without it. If it was just a feather for my cap, or an award to hang on the wall, probably not.
I wasn't sure whether we were supposed to reply on-line on the Forum, or privately to you, so here're my thoughts:
As I said yesterday on the Forum, The HCC is in discussions with our parent-guild, The Worshipful Company of Cordwainers (London) on the possibility of us acting as a remote testing agent for The City & Guilds of London certificates in hand-shoemaking, opening that level of training and certification up to all of those in North America. And if this works out, we will be using the C&G skill levels, titles, etc. I'm not sure whether they have a "masters" degree as their highest rating.
1. Do you think that a someone, sho call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
Yes, but only if there is a legal requirement/implication to the title in the country in question--in US currently there is none.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade? (yes/no)
Since there are no legal requirements/implications here, there is no way to control this. But "yes" if the person has demonstrated a high skill level (judged by peers), and trains others.
3. If "Mater Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
"Use existing model" of The City & Guilds, London. If our discussions with London fail, we would consider other European models, sure. Inventing a new US one from scratch is unlikely to happen. Then there's the question of who will enforce it--prevent non-certified "masters" from calling themselves masters anyway? It would need legal clout to be of any value, and the American mind-set is perhaps too free-thinking to support the European level of licensing ("we don't need no stinkin' badges!"
. And a final one:
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now? (yes/no)
It depends on the credential, title, etc., privileges conveyed or restricted without it. If it was just a feather for my cap, or an award to hang on the wall, probably not.
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dw
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Marcel,
Some interesting questions...
I have to set the stage by saying that to some extent, to call yourself a "master" is to place yourself above others. Without some sort of certification to validate that status and the legal constraints to legitimize that title, the question of arrogance becomes paramount. Self-indulgence certainly.
Second, to be brutally honest, I doubt that I could pass any truly fair or comprehensive masters exam. I am good at what I do. And I am getting better in shoemaking...enough that I think I can confidently call myself a shoemaker. And a fair one ...as far as it goes.
But that "as far as it goes" is the issue. I don't have the range in shoemaking that a master should have. On the other hand, I wonder if some masters in shoemaking have the range in bootmaking to really consider themselves masters. Certainly either scenario would make me uncomfortable and feeling a little like a fraud.
So to answer the questions:
1) Yes, but...I don't call myself a master...I let my work speak for itself.
2) No. Others might call him one but a certain sense of decorum should make one hesitate to toot one's own horn too much.
3) I don't see a real necessity. The responsibility for quality and refinement lies in the hands of the maker regardless of any certificate or title. The perception of that quality lies in the minds of the client...regardless of any title or certificate. If the cache of the title "master" is going to influence the perception of quality...as fashion, advertising, and class does in Europe...then most of us are in big trouble anyway because despite our best efforts and even a skill level that might rise above 99.9% or our peers, we will never garner enough media attention to really "break through."
4] No. I'm too old for it to matter and as mentioned, I doubt I could pass.
Finally, in deference to the Traditions that Marcel mentioned...and make no mistake, I agree with him one-hundred percent...I think every successful candidate for a master's certificate should have to do a sample of 64-1".
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Some interesting questions...
I have to set the stage by saying that to some extent, to call yourself a "master" is to place yourself above others. Without some sort of certification to validate that status and the legal constraints to legitimize that title, the question of arrogance becomes paramount. Self-indulgence certainly.
Second, to be brutally honest, I doubt that I could pass any truly fair or comprehensive masters exam. I am good at what I do. And I am getting better in shoemaking...enough that I think I can confidently call myself a shoemaker. And a fair one ...as far as it goes.
But that "as far as it goes" is the issue. I don't have the range in shoemaking that a master should have. On the other hand, I wonder if some masters in shoemaking have the range in bootmaking to really consider themselves masters. Certainly either scenario would make me uncomfortable and feeling a little like a fraud.
So to answer the questions:
1) Yes, but...I don't call myself a master...I let my work speak for itself.
2) No. Others might call him one but a certain sense of decorum should make one hesitate to toot one's own horn too much.
3) I don't see a real necessity. The responsibility for quality and refinement lies in the hands of the maker regardless of any certificate or title. The perception of that quality lies in the minds of the client...regardless of any title or certificate. If the cache of the title "master" is going to influence the perception of quality...as fashion, advertising, and class does in Europe...then most of us are in big trouble anyway because despite our best efforts and even a skill level that might rise above 99.9% or our peers, we will never garner enough media attention to really "break through."
4] No. I'm too old for it to matter and as mentioned, I doubt I could pass.
Finally, in deference to the Traditions that Marcel mentioned...and make no mistake, I agree with him one-hundred percent...I think every successful candidate for a master's certificate should have to do a sample of 64-1".
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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qiana_markham
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Marcell,
Here's a thought from someone who can't stitch straight or rather a youngblood opinion.
I think that the term "Master" should be a part of the trade as it is practiced here in the States. I also think that without:
1. viable, open and equal opportunities to learn this craft
2. a system of matriculation
3. some form of exam and
4. renewal based on active practice,
the title is self-serving.
This craft deserves regulation, matriculation and publication in my opinion, where ever it is practiced. "Master" should signify something consistently when a client walks into an establishment to have shoes/boots made. In my opinion, the customer should know what "Master" means.
1. Do you think that someone, should call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
Yes. I wholeheartedly agree that there should be some certification. A degree is a great way to acquire knowledge, but does not guarantee practice, which in my opinion is a requirement for being a "Master" by declaration or certification.
It would take a system of checks and balances to make this type of process work, but I believe it would change the opportunities available in the craft here in the US in a very positive way.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade? (yes/no)
Whether they should or not is I think the issue. Currently anyone ballsy enough can declare themselves a "Master" in the trade here. That is the problem and it hurts the craft in professionally in my opinion. Even if a small group comes up with a set of guidelines, that would only applies to that group and there is already a great deal of dissonance within the small group of makers here in the US.
3. If "Master Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
Yes. I think there should be a system. I think that the foundation of the system could be European based, however, life here isn't like life there and that has to be considered. Tradition must meet modernization or death happens. Personally, I think a system should be created by a third party with the help of some of the top practicing makers from around the world. It would be very difficult, but like I said above, I think it would offer something positive for the craft. Access to learning and continuing the trade perhaps... just a couple of great benefits.
And a final one:
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now? (yes/no)
No. I would not. I don't have the credentials. I probably never would apply or call myself a "Master." I've always been a rebel, I like that title best.
@qianamarkham
Here's a thought from someone who can't stitch straight or rather a youngblood opinion.
I think that the term "Master" should be a part of the trade as it is practiced here in the States. I also think that without:
1. viable, open and equal opportunities to learn this craft
2. a system of matriculation
3. some form of exam and
4. renewal based on active practice,
the title is self-serving.
This craft deserves regulation, matriculation and publication in my opinion, where ever it is practiced. "Master" should signify something consistently when a client walks into an establishment to have shoes/boots made. In my opinion, the customer should know what "Master" means.
1. Do you think that someone, should call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
Yes. I wholeheartedly agree that there should be some certification. A degree is a great way to acquire knowledge, but does not guarantee practice, which in my opinion is a requirement for being a "Master" by declaration or certification.
It would take a system of checks and balances to make this type of process work, but I believe it would change the opportunities available in the craft here in the US in a very positive way.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade? (yes/no)
Whether they should or not is I think the issue. Currently anyone ballsy enough can declare themselves a "Master" in the trade here. That is the problem and it hurts the craft in professionally in my opinion. Even if a small group comes up with a set of guidelines, that would only applies to that group and there is already a great deal of dissonance within the small group of makers here in the US.
3. If "Master Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
Yes. I think there should be a system. I think that the foundation of the system could be European based, however, life here isn't like life there and that has to be considered. Tradition must meet modernization or death happens. Personally, I think a system should be created by a third party with the help of some of the top practicing makers from around the world. It would be very difficult, but like I said above, I think it would offer something positive for the craft. Access to learning and continuing the trade perhaps... just a couple of great benefits.
And a final one:
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now? (yes/no)
No. I would not. I don't have the credentials. I probably never would apply or call myself a "Master." I've always been a rebel, I like that title best.
@qianamarkham
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marcell
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
You know what? Let me post my opinion - to be clear.
1. Do you think that a someone, sho call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
Definitely NO.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade? (yes/no)
No. Again.
3. If "Mater Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
Both is fine for me. I would just suggest to take an old and alter it to your demands. But as "last mohicans" you haver duties to do.
On the other hand having a shoemaker certificate is a MUST here - as you don't have that, you have to modify those rules anyway, so practically put together a basic and a advanced level exam. Will be very difficult..
And a final one:
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now? (yes/no)
Yes
Al, It is a nice feather anyway, isn't it? But it isn't just good for decorate a wall - in Europe you can only teach if you have a master degree. If you just can't agree the English guys, feel free to contact me, and maybe I can give some ideas for that exam.
DW, I made some expriment about those 64 spi. If this is in the exam, nobody will pass. I will post the photos later.
1. Do you think that a someone, sho call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
Definitely NO.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade? (yes/no)
No. Again.
3. If "Mater Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
Both is fine for me. I would just suggest to take an old and alter it to your demands. But as "last mohicans" you haver duties to do.
On the other hand having a shoemaker certificate is a MUST here - as you don't have that, you have to modify those rules anyway, so practically put together a basic and a advanced level exam. Will be very difficult..
And a final one:
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now? (yes/no)
Yes
Al, It is a nice feather anyway, isn't it? But it isn't just good for decorate a wall - in Europe you can only teach if you have a master degree. If you just can't agree the English guys, feel free to contact me, and maybe I can give some ideas for that exam.
DW, I made some expriment about those 64 spi. If this is in the exam, nobody will pass. I will post the photos later.
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Marcel,
Not to quibble, but Duncan might. He might even do it so beautifully it will knock our socks off--these were just his preliminary, proof-of-concept experiments.
And although I haven't been in the shop for several weeks, I haven't given up hope to try it myself.
I think as Al suggested, the key is the leather...and several magnifying glasses. Even so, I don't have young eyes anymore...it worries me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
If this is in the exam, nobody will pass.
Not to quibble, but Duncan might. He might even do it so beautifully it will knock our socks off--these were just his preliminary, proof-of-concept experiments.
And although I haven't been in the shop for several weeks, I haven't given up hope to try it myself.
I think as Al suggested, the key is the leather...and several magnifying glasses. Even so, I don't have young eyes anymore...it worries me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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jkrichard
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling
1. Do you think that a someone, should call himself "Master Shoemaker" should have an appropriate degree? (please choose: yes/no)
I'm skeptical of anyone who refers to themselves as a 'master' anything. I've known doctors who shouldn't be practicing despite their several degrees, and 'master' martial artists who were more concerned about cranking out black belts than being true to their art's traditions... so I'll ride the fence on this one, and like many here have echoed: let their work speak for itself.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade?
I don't think anyone should call themselves a master, unless like in Europe, it's a requirement by law to practice the art of teaching. It's terribly pretentious. However, if your peers call or refer to you as a master that is another story entirely.
3. If "Mater Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
I don't think it should be mandatory. Similarly, there are guilds and organizations such as The Association of Authors' Representatives, Inc. which allow members who abide by their standards of ethics, quality, and treatment of their authors etc... I think a body such as the HCC should consider having optional membership catergories, determined by a panel of peers, who will help to educate the PUBLIC on what it means when a member is a certified journeyman, master, etc...
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now?
Now? Me? Goodness no. I'm a youngin' in this trade. This is my yearling year and I'm hardly fit for the title of journeyman, much less master.
I like Janne's philosophy that he will always be a journeyman, because he is always on a journey.
Similarly, in martial arts, despite having a black belt in several disciplines (oh, once upon a time, in a younger body...), I always felt that the only difference between a white belt and a black belt was that a white belt was a student, and a black belt was a more serious student. Black belt wasn't the end of a journey, it was having all the basic tools and essentials readily available to continue that journey.
If you could sell me on a system that approached mastership of this craft as a philosophical beginning, rather than an end to life-long learning, then I would be receptive to it.
-Jeff
I'm skeptical of anyone who refers to themselves as a 'master' anything. I've known doctors who shouldn't be practicing despite their several degrees, and 'master' martial artists who were more concerned about cranking out black belts than being true to their art's traditions... so I'll ride the fence on this one, and like many here have echoed: let their work speak for itself.
2. Do you think that anyone in the USA, can call himself a master after a certain time in the Trade?
I don't think anyone should call themselves a master, unless like in Europe, it's a requirement by law to practice the art of teaching. It's terribly pretentious. However, if your peers call or refer to you as a master that is another story entirely.
3. If "Mater Craftsman" system was never really in fashion in States - do you think that US makers should invent their own one, or just use one of the European one? (make a new/use an old)
I don't think it should be mandatory. Similarly, there are guilds and organizations such as The Association of Authors' Representatives, Inc. which allow members who abide by their standards of ethics, quality, and treatment of their authors etc... I think a body such as the HCC should consider having optional membership catergories, determined by a panel of peers, who will help to educate the PUBLIC on what it means when a member is a certified journeyman, master, etc...
4. Would you apply for the "Master Shoemaker" title now?
Now? Me? Goodness no. I'm a youngin' in this trade. This is my yearling year and I'm hardly fit for the title of journeyman, much less master.
I like Janne's philosophy that he will always be a journeyman, because he is always on a journey.
Similarly, in martial arts, despite having a black belt in several disciplines (oh, once upon a time, in a younger body...), I always felt that the only difference between a white belt and a black belt was that a white belt was a student, and a black belt was a more serious student. Black belt wasn't the end of a journey, it was having all the basic tools and essentials readily available to continue that journey.
If you could sell me on a system that approached mastership of this craft as a philosophical beginning, rather than an end to life-long learning, then I would be receptive to it.
-Jeff
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marcell
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Wow! Thanks for the opinions!
In Germany you get extra appreciation if you are a master - you can even sell your shoes for much more. On the other hand appreciation is an imoportant word - you can be a certified master, but you must prove it.
I cannot agree more wuth this:
"I think a body such as the HCC should consider having optional membership catergories, determined by a panel of peers, who will help to educate the PUBLIC on what it means when a member is a certified journeyman, master, etc... "
I really believe that having ranks in this craft would mean a help from a lot of aspects to the American shoe- and bootmakers.
In Germany you get extra appreciation if you are a master - you can even sell your shoes for much more. On the other hand appreciation is an imoportant word - you can be a certified master, but you must prove it.
I cannot agree more wuth this:
"I think a body such as the HCC should consider having optional membership catergories, determined by a panel of peers, who will help to educate the PUBLIC on what it means when a member is a certified journeyman, master, etc... "
I really believe that having ranks in this craft would mean a help from a lot of aspects to the American shoe- and bootmakers.
-
das
- Seanchaidh
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling
DW,
You were kidding, right, on making 64 spi a test requirement? Why set the bar higher today than it was in the 1600s, 1700s, or 1800s, when as Marcell, June, and others have pointed out, the craptastic leather we have now is not even a shadow of what it was in centuries past? Duncan has my full attention, and if he manages to neaten his 64 spi up, or do it on a welt, he will single-handedly have recreated something not seen since the 1800s! Quite a feat.
Qianna touched well on my other point--the American mindset tends to roil at "titles" and "aristocratic" hierarchies--we prefer to be "rebels" indeed. Jeffery also points out that even well established professional degrees, titles, and licenses do not always guarantee that a professional here is any good. And while this sets us apart culturally from many (especially some of our British friends), it must be taken into account. And, as I pointed out in my long-winded essay, creating a skill certification, now, for shoe/bootmakers that includes a "master" class has little or no basis in tradition in Anglo-America or the UK. There used to be legal ramifications for being a "master" in the past: 1) freeman, proprietor owning your own shop; 2) legally contracting/taking in minor apprentices; 3) training others, but no exams or skill tests except to succeed/excel in the business, not get sued by your apprentices for their maltreatment, neglect, etc., and "make" competent journeymen as well as superb shoes and boots.
If we can use the analogy of the medical professions, strict licensing after intense certified training makes sense--I sure wouldn't want to have my appendix removed by an un-licensed or self-taught surgeon. Would I let an un-licensed, self-taught electrician re-wire my house? Hummm.... And while it could be argued that shoes and boots are appliances that can cripple and maim, I just don't think in this day and age that our trade (bespoke artisanal making) is pervasive enough, mainstream enough, to warrant that same sort of formality. Our certified pedorthists should weigh-in here, as they must be certified/licensed in order to legally make medically prescribed footwear.
Unless every shoe/bootmaker needed such certified training and licensing in order to go into business legally, and un-trained un-licensed makers would be busted by local authorities, like quack doctors, it's probably not feasible to implement. When I visit European friends I am also quite amazed at the level of licensing and state controls imposed over various professions there. Also some very well-established, long-term professionals are now required to get PhDs just in order to meet new EU licensing requirements to keep doing the same business legally they have done fine for decades without being "doctors". Imagine my (lack of) shock when I heard the state did not pay them a stipend equal to their income to take the years' off from earning a living in order to attend university (tuition free?) just to get this new state-required PhD. How many shoe/bootmakers would be put out of business overnight if suddenly they were required to do a 4 year degree at university (or its equivalent training) in order to get a license to legally practice their trade? I think we'd see pitchforks and torches and angry mobs storming city hall
Marcell,
I hear you brother, I really do. "Feathers", "diplomas", and "appreciation" are nice, absolutely, but a lot depends on where you are in your career. At 53 years old, with 37 years at this, padding my resume is no longer a high priority for me, so accept what I say on this with a grain of salt. For younger folks like you and Qianna, it's different, that's all. Since there is no longer any absolute, legally enforceable, or precise meaning to the title "master" in the English language, the horse is already out of the barn on the loose usage of the word, and no way will we ever get him back in. Some will sadly advertise and promote themselves to the public as master craftsmen who ought not to. Others will eschew the title out of modesty. More legitimately, peers will use the term glowingly when speaking of others' work they admire--"Wow! He's a master of that....".
If the City & Guilds thing does not pan out, I'd like to see (English please) copies of any European shoe certifications, tests, etc. PM on that. Thanks.
You were kidding, right, on making 64 spi a test requirement? Why set the bar higher today than it was in the 1600s, 1700s, or 1800s, when as Marcell, June, and others have pointed out, the craptastic leather we have now is not even a shadow of what it was in centuries past? Duncan has my full attention, and if he manages to neaten his 64 spi up, or do it on a welt, he will single-handedly have recreated something not seen since the 1800s! Quite a feat.
Qianna touched well on my other point--the American mindset tends to roil at "titles" and "aristocratic" hierarchies--we prefer to be "rebels" indeed. Jeffery also points out that even well established professional degrees, titles, and licenses do not always guarantee that a professional here is any good. And while this sets us apart culturally from many (especially some of our British friends), it must be taken into account. And, as I pointed out in my long-winded essay, creating a skill certification, now, for shoe/bootmakers that includes a "master" class has little or no basis in tradition in Anglo-America or the UK. There used to be legal ramifications for being a "master" in the past: 1) freeman, proprietor owning your own shop; 2) legally contracting/taking in minor apprentices; 3) training others, but no exams or skill tests except to succeed/excel in the business, not get sued by your apprentices for their maltreatment, neglect, etc., and "make" competent journeymen as well as superb shoes and boots.
If we can use the analogy of the medical professions, strict licensing after intense certified training makes sense--I sure wouldn't want to have my appendix removed by an un-licensed or self-taught surgeon. Would I let an un-licensed, self-taught electrician re-wire my house? Hummm.... And while it could be argued that shoes and boots are appliances that can cripple and maim, I just don't think in this day and age that our trade (bespoke artisanal making) is pervasive enough, mainstream enough, to warrant that same sort of formality. Our certified pedorthists should weigh-in here, as they must be certified/licensed in order to legally make medically prescribed footwear.
Unless every shoe/bootmaker needed such certified training and licensing in order to go into business legally, and un-trained un-licensed makers would be busted by local authorities, like quack doctors, it's probably not feasible to implement. When I visit European friends I am also quite amazed at the level of licensing and state controls imposed over various professions there. Also some very well-established, long-term professionals are now required to get PhDs just in order to meet new EU licensing requirements to keep doing the same business legally they have done fine for decades without being "doctors". Imagine my (lack of) shock when I heard the state did not pay them a stipend equal to their income to take the years' off from earning a living in order to attend university (tuition free?) just to get this new state-required PhD. How many shoe/bootmakers would be put out of business overnight if suddenly they were required to do a 4 year degree at university (or its equivalent training) in order to get a license to legally practice their trade? I think we'd see pitchforks and torches and angry mobs storming city hall
Marcell,
I hear you brother, I really do. "Feathers", "diplomas", and "appreciation" are nice, absolutely, but a lot depends on where you are in your career. At 53 years old, with 37 years at this, padding my resume is no longer a high priority for me, so accept what I say on this with a grain of salt. For younger folks like you and Qianna, it's different, that's all. Since there is no longer any absolute, legally enforceable, or precise meaning to the title "master" in the English language, the horse is already out of the barn on the loose usage of the word, and no way will we ever get him back in. Some will sadly advertise and promote themselves to the public as master craftsmen who ought not to. Others will eschew the title out of modesty. More legitimately, peers will use the term glowingly when speaking of others' work they admire--"Wow! He's a master of that....".
If the City & Guilds thing does not pan out, I'd like to see (English please) copies of any European shoe certifications, tests, etc. PM on that. Thanks.
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Al,
Yes, of course. I was kidding. Witness the extravagant use of two...two..."smilies."
On the other hand, since Duncan has not only tried it and come near-as-nevermind to achieving it, maybe asking applicants to at least try--to test their patience, skills with the bristle and thread, and their knowledge of leathers, might not be a bad idea. No harm, no fowl. Buk buk...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Yes, of course. I was kidding. Witness the extravagant use of two...two..."smilies."
On the other hand, since Duncan has not only tried it and come near-as-nevermind to achieving it, maybe asking applicants to at least try--to test their patience, skills with the bristle and thread, and their knowledge of leathers, might not be a bad idea. No harm, no fowl. Buk buk...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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jesselee
- 6
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
- Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
- Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Marcell and all,
Firstly, I am typing blind as I await eye surgery so forgive any typos. In all early Gyuld systems there were 3 base degrees: apprentice, journeymn and Master. This was recorded in the shop records. along with the lineage of who taught who. Above this were 2 more degees: pPast Master and Grand master, similar to Masonic lodges. To pass each degree you made and submitted an apprentice piece and a Master piece, a word still in use. The criteria was set by the shop. There was no journeyman piece as its a transitional degree where you can be a Master in your own right if you become an 'itinerant\ journeyman, meaning you travel and work but don't have a shop. I adhere to 19th century standards and in that aspect I am a Grand Master, and registered in the shop book by my shop Master and I inherited the shop when I was 155 when he died and had been entered the year before. While I would be as dumb as a box of hammers beside DW or Lisa for instance as I know nothing about their style and techniques, I could pull up a stool and sit with Al as his tecvhniques are familiar to me. So mastery is within a particular genre of boot/shoe making. If it were to be government certified I would reject it on principle and the grandfather law. I do feel it important that each Master, whether you are by lineage or work, teach your style to apprentices to carry on the trade. I am also a Master book binder and have made a Master who has his own shop. As DW says, the work speaks for itself. The way one of us does it will differ from the way another does it as the Trade moprphs into different styles ie. the original cowboy boot bears no resemblance to the artistic beauty of todats cowboy boot. I can't blow up the screen here to read much so private emails are encouraged and God willing I invite any who wish to learn mid-late 19th century boot making to apply to my shop befoe I become one of the dead guys.
Firstly, I am typing blind as I await eye surgery so forgive any typos. In all early Gyuld systems there were 3 base degrees: apprentice, journeymn and Master. This was recorded in the shop records. along with the lineage of who taught who. Above this were 2 more degees: pPast Master and Grand master, similar to Masonic lodges. To pass each degree you made and submitted an apprentice piece and a Master piece, a word still in use. The criteria was set by the shop. There was no journeyman piece as its a transitional degree where you can be a Master in your own right if you become an 'itinerant\ journeyman, meaning you travel and work but don't have a shop. I adhere to 19th century standards and in that aspect I am a Grand Master, and registered in the shop book by my shop Master and I inherited the shop when I was 155 when he died and had been entered the year before. While I would be as dumb as a box of hammers beside DW or Lisa for instance as I know nothing about their style and techniques, I could pull up a stool and sit with Al as his tecvhniques are familiar to me. So mastery is within a particular genre of boot/shoe making. If it were to be government certified I would reject it on principle and the grandfather law. I do feel it important that each Master, whether you are by lineage or work, teach your style to apprentices to carry on the trade. I am also a Master book binder and have made a Master who has his own shop. As DW says, the work speaks for itself. The way one of us does it will differ from the way another does it as the Trade moprphs into different styles ie. the original cowboy boot bears no resemblance to the artistic beauty of todats cowboy boot. I can't blow up the screen here to read much so private emails are encouraged and God willing I invite any who wish to learn mid-late 19th century boot making to apply to my shop befoe I become one of the dead guys.
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chuck_deats
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Is there a model for North American shoe/boot makers in the Gunmakers Guild? Not sure exactly how it works, but believe one must submit a body of work (Maybe 64/inch) to a committee of peers to be accepted. Being a member does hold some prestige. Conversely, a member can be expelled for shoddy work or bad business practices.
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fred_coencped
- 3
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:32 am
- Full Name: Fred Coen;Foot Comfort Center
- Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
- Contact:
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Al,and others,
With appreciation of all viewpoints expressed,and as an orthopedic shoe maker,self ordained leather craftsman and designer,certified pedorthist,now Reflexoligist,student in Structual Integration,Tai Chi practioner,at best I will say after 37 years of making a meager living I confess at 62 no need to be master of anything.
I humbly and gratefully help others.Certification in pedorthics within our medical system has become so diluted with Medicare and HMO`s[Healthcare Medical Organizations] that I am forced into private paying clients and sliding fees to help poor people.
I often wonder about myself and others like all of you on this forum journeying in practice and learning in our changing world.I think our values and ideals are very beautiful and intentions are both with higher aspirations and fantastic intentions.
We are in struggling times in this life and try to support ourselves in all ways as well as each other.
Many of you are highly skilled in the craft of shoe and bootmaking and truly inspire the rest of us who regard you in high esteem.
We all strive for perfection and try to pass on what we know and even what we think we know[and that is more about myself]in an effort to share our accumulated knowledge and experience.
Overall I would not concern myself with master titles or certificates, only with my continued developing skills and further holistic practical knowledge in structual integration in an effort to help others walk.
Also I wanted to expess to others new and old to shoemaking my concern that biomechanics in the foot and entire lower extremity is important and there is an incredible need in the world for pedorthists and orthopedic shoemaking
.
Being a certified pedorthist has not meant much to me it is only the continuating education and deeper levels of the entire biodynamic living processes of bodily systems that hold my interest and impoving my abilities in biomechanics.
Marcell.
Your guild building is very impressive and your skills are pretty impeccable.Your teaching others is very noble.I was fotunate to study handbag design in only one course at Parsons School of design with Judith Lieber and Ivan Halmos in shoe design and patternmaking both I believe from Budapest[in the early 1980`s].They are both extremely refined exceptional teachers, along my journey.
I think we are not as fortunate as you and your neighbors in Europe and I am happy to say that many others in my quest have helped me.
Gratefully that includes you.Thank you, sincerely.
Peace,Fred [another one of those "one man bands" we all heard about].
With appreciation of all viewpoints expressed,and as an orthopedic shoe maker,self ordained leather craftsman and designer,certified pedorthist,now Reflexoligist,student in Structual Integration,Tai Chi practioner,at best I will say after 37 years of making a meager living I confess at 62 no need to be master of anything.
I humbly and gratefully help others.Certification in pedorthics within our medical system has become so diluted with Medicare and HMO`s[Healthcare Medical Organizations] that I am forced into private paying clients and sliding fees to help poor people.
I often wonder about myself and others like all of you on this forum journeying in practice and learning in our changing world.I think our values and ideals are very beautiful and intentions are both with higher aspirations and fantastic intentions.
We are in struggling times in this life and try to support ourselves in all ways as well as each other.
Many of you are highly skilled in the craft of shoe and bootmaking and truly inspire the rest of us who regard you in high esteem.
We all strive for perfection and try to pass on what we know and even what we think we know[and that is more about myself]in an effort to share our accumulated knowledge and experience.
Overall I would not concern myself with master titles or certificates, only with my continued developing skills and further holistic practical knowledge in structual integration in an effort to help others walk.
Also I wanted to expess to others new and old to shoemaking my concern that biomechanics in the foot and entire lower extremity is important and there is an incredible need in the world for pedorthists and orthopedic shoemaking
.
Being a certified pedorthist has not meant much to me it is only the continuating education and deeper levels of the entire biodynamic living processes of bodily systems that hold my interest and impoving my abilities in biomechanics.
Marcell.
Your guild building is very impressive and your skills are pretty impeccable.Your teaching others is very noble.I was fotunate to study handbag design in only one course at Parsons School of design with Judith Lieber and Ivan Halmos in shoe design and patternmaking both I believe from Budapest[in the early 1980`s].They are both extremely refined exceptional teachers, along my journey.
I think we are not as fortunate as you and your neighbors in Europe and I am happy to say that many others in my quest have helped me.
Gratefully that includes you.Thank you, sincerely.
Peace,Fred [another one of those "one man bands" we all heard about].
-
das
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 1635
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
- Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
- Has Liked: 149 times
- Been Liked: 136 times
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Jesse,
Sorry to hear about your eyes man! You need those. Hope your surgery goes well, and that your surgeon is not a self-taught rebel or un-licensed.
Can you share these "shop records" you mention? What century and what locale are they from? While apprentices and journeymen are amply recorded in most places (court records, apprentice papers, indentures and the like), and all were obviously employed my "masters", or "caused to be trained" (as usually phrased) by "masters" (though training often fell on journeymen), I have as yet never uncovered an example of a master's test per se. Their test was simply rising to the point they could buy bulk leather and supplies, manage/operate a shop-business, and afford to hire journeymen or take-in apprentices (like foster children to feed and clothe) for 6-7 years--that's test enough in my book! Furthermore, double-check what a master-piece was historically--usually it was the apprentices' final work project done with no supervision or instruction to insure that he "got it", hence not necessarily scary-good work. It showed his mastery of skills before he was promoted to journeyman, it did not, however, qualify him to be called a "master".
Itinerancy is another can of worms. Frankly I'd be hard pressed to call a shop-less wandering 'maker (usually not a high-class workman historically) a "master" even figuratively, as he had neither property, a proper shop, or employees/apprentices. "Going out on the tramp" as it was called was usually the lowest rung on the ladder before descending into completely abject cobbler-hood (repairmen). As to journeymen and roving, see my post from the other day. The Germans and other Europeans did have a tradition of shuffling *apprentices* around between several masters to increase their exposure to different skills, but the "journey" in journeyman derived from the French word jour (day), as they were casual day-workers, usually paid piece-work.
The common confusion today over these terms is wide-spread (master-piece, journeymen, etc.). Let's please not add to it here--the HCC is supposed to be educational after all
My "master" Captain E. W. Peterkin (who formally trained me 1975-1981) was trained by his "master" Fredrerisch Engleke (bootmaker to the Kaiser Wilhelm, in a long lineage of bootmakers). When my apprenticeship was over, Peterkin penned (calligraphy was his hobby) me a nice letter which hangs on my wall, saying that I: "having successfully achieved the proper skills in the Art and Mystery of a Cordwainer, and having served faithfully, is hereby granted the title of Master Bootmaker from this date forth." I am also an admitted Freeman-Citizen of the City of Glasgow (Scotland) and a Burgess Cordiner (cordwainer) of The Trades House (guildhall) of Glasgow--but I don't tout it--and yes I did have to formally petition, pay fees, submit my cv, have my boot-work examined/judged, etc., etc. in order to get in.
Two notes: 1) "mystery" in the common apprenticeship phraseology "art and mystery" does not derive from the Greek (something mysterious/hidden/obscure), but rather from the Latin, meaning the "practice of...", before we get all bogged down over that word; and 2) him granting me the title "master bootmaker", in lieu of any official bodies who may use the term (like Freemasons, etc.) was purely his endorsement of how he felt about my skills--nothing legal/official. The job description at the museum I've worked for 20+ years says "Master Boot & Shoemaker" in black and white, but when I introduce myself to strangers I NEVER say I'm a "master". It's too puffy for my temperament. If asked about where I work, I do say "I'm the Master Boot & Shoemaker for The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation... I run their shoemaking shop."
On my wall also hangs a late 18thc. pewter ceremonial (Dutch?) guild flask in the shape of a buckle shoe, with a guild "summoning tablet" dated 1795 hanging below it. It has engraved a name, followed by "uberzeckmeister" (grand-master?), with a list of names below it--presumably just bog standard guild wardens. So the term grand-master has some precedence in European trade guilds, but not in England or the US. Now there's a topic needing some in-depth research: shoemakers' (secular) fraternal/trade organizations after the demise of the Medieval (religious-occupational fraternities) guilds, their officers, structure and history. Our parent-guild's history and organization, The Worshipful Company of Cordwainers, London, has been well-documented from 1272 onward, most recently by the WCC's past-master Clive Wilcox in 'Cordwainers' (ISBN 978-1-903025-69-7). Another interesting monograph 'The Outwith London Guilds of Great Britain' by R. F. Lane, covers as the title says, UK trade guilds outside of London.
Frankly I'm not too worried either "grandfather" Jesse. Even if a recognized international body of shoemakers could be convened and unanimously agree(!) on a skills-test for "master", and all countries provide the preparatory training up to standards for free in order to qualify, much less support us each in the manner to which we are accustomed while we "went back to school" for this, at the end of the day unless there're were strictly enforced laws to prevent un-certified "masters" outside the system from going into business or calling themselves "masters", I do not think this idea would "grow legs" as they say. Of course I might have felt very differently when I was 16
I can see it now, G-men coming into our workshops saying, "Let me see your papers please....we're from the government, we're here to help you!". *Bwahahaha*
Sorry to hear about your eyes man! You need those. Hope your surgery goes well, and that your surgeon is not a self-taught rebel or un-licensed.
Can you share these "shop records" you mention? What century and what locale are they from? While apprentices and journeymen are amply recorded in most places (court records, apprentice papers, indentures and the like), and all were obviously employed my "masters", or "caused to be trained" (as usually phrased) by "masters" (though training often fell on journeymen), I have as yet never uncovered an example of a master's test per se. Their test was simply rising to the point they could buy bulk leather and supplies, manage/operate a shop-business, and afford to hire journeymen or take-in apprentices (like foster children to feed and clothe) for 6-7 years--that's test enough in my book! Furthermore, double-check what a master-piece was historically--usually it was the apprentices' final work project done with no supervision or instruction to insure that he "got it", hence not necessarily scary-good work. It showed his mastery of skills before he was promoted to journeyman, it did not, however, qualify him to be called a "master".
Itinerancy is another can of worms. Frankly I'd be hard pressed to call a shop-less wandering 'maker (usually not a high-class workman historically) a "master" even figuratively, as he had neither property, a proper shop, or employees/apprentices. "Going out on the tramp" as it was called was usually the lowest rung on the ladder before descending into completely abject cobbler-hood (repairmen). As to journeymen and roving, see my post from the other day. The Germans and other Europeans did have a tradition of shuffling *apprentices* around between several masters to increase their exposure to different skills, but the "journey" in journeyman derived from the French word jour (day), as they were casual day-workers, usually paid piece-work.
The common confusion today over these terms is wide-spread (master-piece, journeymen, etc.). Let's please not add to it here--the HCC is supposed to be educational after all
My "master" Captain E. W. Peterkin (who formally trained me 1975-1981) was trained by his "master" Fredrerisch Engleke (bootmaker to the Kaiser Wilhelm, in a long lineage of bootmakers). When my apprenticeship was over, Peterkin penned (calligraphy was his hobby) me a nice letter which hangs on my wall, saying that I: "having successfully achieved the proper skills in the Art and Mystery of a Cordwainer, and having served faithfully, is hereby granted the title of Master Bootmaker from this date forth." I am also an admitted Freeman-Citizen of the City of Glasgow (Scotland) and a Burgess Cordiner (cordwainer) of The Trades House (guildhall) of Glasgow--but I don't tout it--and yes I did have to formally petition, pay fees, submit my cv, have my boot-work examined/judged, etc., etc. in order to get in.
Two notes: 1) "mystery" in the common apprenticeship phraseology "art and mystery" does not derive from the Greek (something mysterious/hidden/obscure), but rather from the Latin, meaning the "practice of...", before we get all bogged down over that word; and 2) him granting me the title "master bootmaker", in lieu of any official bodies who may use the term (like Freemasons, etc.) was purely his endorsement of how he felt about my skills--nothing legal/official. The job description at the museum I've worked for 20+ years says "Master Boot & Shoemaker" in black and white, but when I introduce myself to strangers I NEVER say I'm a "master". It's too puffy for my temperament. If asked about where I work, I do say "I'm the Master Boot & Shoemaker for The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation... I run their shoemaking shop."
On my wall also hangs a late 18thc. pewter ceremonial (Dutch?) guild flask in the shape of a buckle shoe, with a guild "summoning tablet" dated 1795 hanging below it. It has engraved a name, followed by "uberzeckmeister" (grand-master?), with a list of names below it--presumably just bog standard guild wardens. So the term grand-master has some precedence in European trade guilds, but not in England or the US. Now there's a topic needing some in-depth research: shoemakers' (secular) fraternal/trade organizations after the demise of the Medieval (religious-occupational fraternities) guilds, their officers, structure and history. Our parent-guild's history and organization, The Worshipful Company of Cordwainers, London, has been well-documented from 1272 onward, most recently by the WCC's past-master Clive Wilcox in 'Cordwainers' (ISBN 978-1-903025-69-7). Another interesting monograph 'The Outwith London Guilds of Great Britain' by R. F. Lane, covers as the title says, UK trade guilds outside of London.
Frankly I'm not too worried either "grandfather" Jesse. Even if a recognized international body of shoemakers could be convened and unanimously agree(!) on a skills-test for "master", and all countries provide the preparatory training up to standards for free in order to qualify, much less support us each in the manner to which we are accustomed while we "went back to school" for this, at the end of the day unless there're were strictly enforced laws to prevent un-certified "masters" outside the system from going into business or calling themselves "masters", I do not think this idea would "grow legs" as they say. Of course I might have felt very differently when I was 16
I can see it now, G-men coming into our workshops saying, "Let me see your papers please....we're from the government, we're here to help you!". *Bwahahaha*
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jesselee
- 6
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
- Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
- Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Al,
That was a most inspiring post. It opens doors for much research. It seems our Americasn way is more laid back than what the Europeans did ie. such as your shop Master writing your script of achievement. I think we are more personal here than over the great pond. Mostly I feel its about the Gentle Craft, not just the free-man who practises it. I am sure there are university trained clasical musicians who are Masters, yet unknown, yet Jimi Hendrix is considered a Master guitarist, yet self taught. So again, our American system seems to be self reliant and falls upon us to seek those whom we feel are Masters of a given shoe/boot genre. In the end, it is the work we produce that speaks for itself. Personally, I feel Mastery is when the work is so second nature that it is effortless and all aspects of the making are covered.
That was a most inspiring post. It opens doors for much research. It seems our Americasn way is more laid back than what the Europeans did ie. such as your shop Master writing your script of achievement. I think we are more personal here than over the great pond. Mostly I feel its about the Gentle Craft, not just the free-man who practises it. I am sure there are university trained clasical musicians who are Masters, yet unknown, yet Jimi Hendrix is considered a Master guitarist, yet self taught. So again, our American system seems to be self reliant and falls upon us to seek those whom we feel are Masters of a given shoe/boot genre. In the end, it is the work we produce that speaks for itself. Personally, I feel Mastery is when the work is so second nature that it is effortless and all aspects of the making are covered.
-
jesselee
- 6
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
- Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
- Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Al
Forgot to adress the book issue. I will be photographing pertinent pages to this discussion when I get it from the safety deposit box. If I ever host a HCC gathering I will put it on display. PMHO it portrays one shops an American perspective as vs a European one.
Forgot to adress the book issue. I will be photographing pertinent pages to this discussion when I get it from the safety deposit box. If I ever host a HCC gathering I will put it on display. PMHO it portrays one shops an American perspective as vs a European one.
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marcell
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Fred,
Thank you! Well, there are plenty of Hungarian leathercrafters in the States I believe. I am happy that you met some. I hope we will also meet one day.
Thank you! Well, there are plenty of Hungarian leathercrafters in the States I believe. I am happy that you met some. I hope we will also meet one day.
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marcell
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAM 2011 - 2 free ticket for two weeks are available to Koronya Workshop
Hi, I tought let's give a nice seasonal surprise to 2 forum members. I try to invite every year 2 THEHCC.ORG forum member to learn shoemaking or just want to spend 2 weeks in my workshop.
Here is my plan and the conditions:
1. Anyone can apply for the course who is a member this moment.
2. I would like to ask a small comittee to help me decide who should come. I invite to jury (random order):
DW,
Craig Corvin,
Janne Melkersson,
Lisa Sorell,
D.A. Saguto,
Tim Skyrme.
I would be honoured if you would accept my invitation, if not - no problem. I will send all applications to anyone, so we can discuss and vote. Everyone can vote to 2 people with one vote - I keep myself 2.
3. We don't judge your previous experience, your level in shoemaking, so feel free to apply even if you never touched any tools.
4. I try to announce the results in a few days.
5. If you get a free card to the course, maybe you can come in 2010 - if there will be any free spots left.
Send your application here: info@koronya.com
And as I wait applications from active members there is a time limit: 72 hours. Sorry for that. You can also post it here - that will count to be a valid application.
Good luck!
Hi, I tought let's give a nice seasonal surprise to 2 forum members. I try to invite every year 2 THEHCC.ORG forum member to learn shoemaking or just want to spend 2 weeks in my workshop.
Here is my plan and the conditions:
1. Anyone can apply for the course who is a member this moment.
2. I would like to ask a small comittee to help me decide who should come. I invite to jury (random order):
DW,
Craig Corvin,
Janne Melkersson,
Lisa Sorell,
D.A. Saguto,
Tim Skyrme.
I would be honoured if you would accept my invitation, if not - no problem. I will send all applications to anyone, so we can discuss and vote. Everyone can vote to 2 people with one vote - I keep myself 2.
3. We don't judge your previous experience, your level in shoemaking, so feel free to apply even if you never touched any tools.
4. I try to announce the results in a few days.
5. If you get a free card to the course, maybe you can come in 2010 - if there will be any free spots left.
Send your application here: info@koronya.com
And as I wait applications from active members there is a time limit: 72 hours. Sorry for that. You can also post it here - that will count to be a valid application.
Good luck!
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tia_brun
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- Full Name: Tia Simmons
- Location: Durham, NC, US
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artzend
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- Full Name: Tim Skyrme
- Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
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- Contact:
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Marcell
I am honoured that you would include me on your committee. Thanks.
You have my email
Tim
I am honoured that you would include me on your committee. Thanks.
You have my email
Tim
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sorrell
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- Full Name: Lisa Sorrell
- Location: Guthrie, OK
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- Contact:
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Marcel,
I really admire the way you want to pass your knowledge along so freely. I'd be happy to serve on your committee.
Lisa
I really admire the way you want to pass your knowledge along so freely. I'd be happy to serve on your committee.
Lisa
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marcell
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
Update: DW declined to be in the committee as the HCC admin, so I would like to ask an other member for jury. Any suggestion?
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corvin
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- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:13 pm
- Full Name: Craig Corvin
- Location: Seattle, WA
- Been Liked: 1 time
Re: apprenticeships and schooling
I'm honored and humbled to be asked to be on this committee!
As shoemaking goes, I do not deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph as the others, but I will do my best to add to the committee a perspective of someone who has spent some time in Marcell's workshop.
For those who are interested, it's a fantastic opportunity, so apply already!
Thanks,
Craig
As shoemaking goes, I do not deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph as the others, but I will do my best to add to the committee a perspective of someone who has spent some time in Marcell's workshop.
For those who are interested, it's a fantastic opportunity, so apply already!
Thanks,
Craig