apprenticeships and schooling

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jkrichard
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#51 Post by jkrichard »

Melissa,
If you are talking about the pure economics of learning bootmaking then yes, Okmulgee is probably your best bet. The tuition is middling and the first tuition payment is higher because it includes your basic toolbox. There are shop orders aplenty, which means you'll never be out of pocket as long as you stick with shop orders. It's our nation's only public school---it received federal funding---potentially you could receive a Pell Grant which would cover your tuition...

However, let me be objective here...*caveat emptor*
Okmulgee is in the middle of nowhere somewhere on HWY 75. You'll need a place to stay, which the school does NOT cover. You'll likely need a job, which the school might help you with...but finding employment that will work around you attending school full-time might not be that easy in such a small town.
The instructor, Mike Dewitt, will teach you how to make a solid boot. He doesn't have a problem with you incorporating new (or more traditional) techniques or trying different approaches to bootmaking...or shoes for that matter (he would have given me the 'boot' a long time ago if that were the case...), however, this might NOT be the way that another maker would have you make a boot.
There are a few folks, for whatever reason, that do not hold the program at Green Country in high regard. You may find that by attending the technical school that you may limit to which makers may take you in as an apprentice because of their personal opinions.

My recommendation is to find the bootmaker that makes boots exactly how you want to make them, and ask them what it would take to consider you as an apprentice...
...just stand by for answers such as:

"Don't have time to teach."
"Don't have time for an apprentice."
"Apprentices are costly, you'd cost me money."
"Can't afford to pay you."

You can also check with some of the makers here whom offer courses. But, if you want to learn from some of the best, stand-by to pay for that training.

"I am 36 years old and wanting to make a career change, and I don't want to waste any time or money floundering around while doing so. "

I hope you aren't wanting to make a career change overnight. It takes time to learn and develop the skills necessary to survive in this trade. It's going to take money as well, whichever route you chose. This career change while likely take you a few years to gather the tools, materials, and knowledge to be successful, so having a plan is a good thing.

-Jeff

(Message edited by JKRichard on December 03, 2009)
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#52 Post by dw »

Janne, Marcel,

We'd need Al Saguto to jump in here and provide a definitive answer, but I don't believe that there ever was a master's exam or a certification in this country...not in shoemaking.

So...I guess we've never produced a master in the US. Sad isn't it? Image


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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#53 Post by qiana_markham »

Melissa,

I like you made a career change. I quit my job working in advertising and moved to Okmulgee from LA. It was no fun. I must agree with Jeff that as far as having access to equipment and the ability to experiment and see if this is really for you, Okmulgee is good economically for that.

In my opinion the program itself could hardly prepare anyone for a career change. It can only prepare you for a career choice, which is important. If you know you are sure you want to make boots, skip Okmulgee and go for an intensive course and/or apprenticeship with a western bootmaker.

I left Okmulgee about 8 months ago after being offered an apprenticeship in Guthrie, OK with Lisa Sorrell. Studying with a maker who is operating as a business is definitely the way to learn this craft. The business side of this craft is just as important as the technical and traditional skills, especially if you want it to be your career.

If I were you I would trek around and meet some bootmakers face-to-face. Start with Lee Miller since you are in Austin. He is one of the best bootmakers and an all around amazing person in general. Just ask questions and observe. I spent several days with Lee and Carrlyn and really learned a lot. They are always willing to share. Lee and Carrlyn have an employee her name is Julia. She is awesome. Talk to her about how she got her job there.

If you don't mind traveling come to Guthrie and meet Lisa Sorrell. She is my teacher and operates a very successful business making amazing western boots. Lisa has been in the business for nearly 20 years and not only does she make award winning boots, she is an artist and has a unique approach to the craft. As a teacher she is tops and always welcomes up and coming makers.

If you have the means to pay a maker for their time, by all means do that. It is the best way and it is worth it, but be selective and make sure that not only you like their work, but you also mesh with their personality.

Take your time and interview everyone you meet.

If you are leaning toward Okmulgee, I would consider quality of life coming from Austin. Let's just say it will be extremely compromised. Okmulgee as is like living in 1956. If you happen to be on the correct side of the color line, political line, gender line, religion line well then it is a great fit. If not, you better have pretty thick skin. I was on the wrong side of them all.

Most importantly if you move to Okmulgee, Walmart will be the new Whole Foods... however, there is a WF in Tulsa. 45 miles, I drove there 3 times a week just for food and to satisfy my occasional need to see people with teeth.

@qianamarkham
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#54 Post by artzend »

So you won't be putting Okmulgee forward for the Michelin guide then Qiana?

I guess I will cross it off my list of places to go when I do get to the States.

Tim
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#55 Post by marcell »

I forgot to post that photo, but maybe it is better like a link:

http://theskyoverbudapest.blogspot.com/2008/11/shoemakers-guild-czipesz-ipartest ulet.html
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#56 Post by janne_melkersson »

I was talking to one of my students today and I want to quote a sentence of the conversation;

"I long for a master. I am inefficient, wasting time and materials in a pitiful miserable stream! Worse, it is a constant battle to keep my spirits and confidence up because I make such a mess of so many things. I regularly ask myself what did I think setting out to do such a difficult thing on my own?"

Well, been there done that! I remember one day during my apprentice time when I had screwed up a pair and was extremely unhappy my master encourage me to struggle on saying that my next pair will be better. That is something that have kept me going every time there have been a mess in the shop becasue next pair is going to be if not much but better. Mr "mistake" is a hard teacher but he is a good one.

I agree that the best way to learn the trade is to find a master with or without diploma but what is available today seems for most be books, videos, shorter courses, internet and as the quote above it will be a tough way but it is a possible way.

Tough it will be even though you have had a master. After apprentice time I ended up in a orthopedic shop and suddenly I was alone with the patient and had to make decisions and be responsible for what I was doing with no master around. The first years was kind of scary every time I meet a patient with feet problems I never faced before. It felt as I had to invent the wheel 100 of times!

I agree with DW that "learning this business is always fundamentally autodidactic for the simple reason that it always comes back to the energy, passion, and determination of the student. Without that even a seven year apprenticeship with a master shoemaker won't make a competent journeyman."

So you guys and gals who struggle alone out there keep up the good job, next pair will be better!
marcell

Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#57 Post by marcell »

this could be one of my students also (is it?)... Image I told you Janne: you are nicest shoemaker I have ever met.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#58 Post by frank_jones »

All

Can I first say thank you to Sue Brown and Melissa for setting this topic alight. Please remember boot/shoemakers are a very independent group of people, that is partly what makes them so interesting. We all tend to do things (and think) in our own very personal way.

Many of the Colloquy regulars know me but not all. So, before I comment perhaps I should say where I am coming from. Since 1995, I have been running my own business but my last “regular” (meaning salaried) job was as Head of Footwear at one of the dwindling few colleges in the UK that taught shoemaking. Also, many years earlier I worked for two years as a tutor at Cordewainers’ Technical College in London.

I know very little about Okmulgee but would like to comment from the “front of the class”. I really do believe that college tuition can be very useful to a Boot/Shoemaker but it is always limited in what can be achieved. I truly think that you cannot teach people anything. A teacher’s job is to encourage students to learn. That includes picking up mistakes or bad work.

I visualise a teacher’s job as being in a room with the student which has no doors or windows. The only way to proceed in life is out through a trap-door in the ceiling. The teacher’s role is to act as a ladder and help the student to climb upwards and onwards.

As has been said above, one of the big benefits of being in a good well-equipped college environment to use the facilities and so gain experience without costing you large sums of money later. Make your mistakes at college, that is why you go there. Obviously you hope to have wonderful tutors but that will be a bonus. When I went to Cordwainers as a student, I was like a child in a candy shop. I could not believe how lucky I was to have the use of such a range of tools, machines, lasts, etc.

Having said that do make sure the college is good. I regularly get asked to give an opinion about colleges by people looking to study at various locations in Europe. I always suggest they visit the college to check out the facilities and talk to the tutors, before they commit to going there on a course.

The students that get the most out of any course are those who put the most in. If you take a course at college or even with an individual maker, always remember it is not their course - it is your course. The harder you work, the more you will learn and there is so much to learn. Make every minute count.

Thanks again to Sue and Melissa. Beginner’s questions are often fantastic, because you so want to know the answer. Hopefully some of the above will be useful.

Frank Jones - HCC Member
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#59 Post by paul »

Thank you Frank! I think that was very useful,

And I know I'm not the only one who believes that your passion and committment to the trade is worth more than a few rungs on that ladder you mention. And what a great analogy, thru a whole in the ceiling, I like that.

I've mostly worked thru the feelings I've had about myself coming to making by way of repair(thanks for that too).
And I don't know what kind of teacher I could ever be.
But I have figured out that learning how to learn, is a key piece to the puzzel that is this boot/shoe making journey.

For some it would be in a school environment, and for others it would be sitting proudly on top of a pile of mistakes. Just remember, practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

But I think we can all agree that the the HCC and the Colloquy are also worth a couple of rungs on that same ladder.

Emmett's comments above show what a safe environment for learning this forum is. And thankfully, it is jealously gaurded. I hope we all appreciate that it is for the benifit of all that such difficult words are spoken/typed.

Thank you, Admin/Emmett/DW. And thanks to all posters for what you contribute to the greater good.

Back to the bench,
Paul
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#60 Post by qiana_markham »

Melissa,

I have to agree with Frank Jones 100%. Make your big mistakes in college. I just wish there was a better option here in the US for making western boots.

If it's the program at Okmulgee, an intensive course or apprenticeship, your experience will be what you make of it. The town of Okmulgee however is completely out of your hands.

If you find that you decide to test the waters there, I am happy to connect you with a guy on that owns and rents the nicer apartments in town. He does no advertising and is on the city council.

If I can help in any other way, let me know.

Best of luck,

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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#61 Post by niksag03 »

Your welcome Frank! Thank you all for your inputs I am learning a lot on this forum.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#62 Post by chuck_deats »

Frank, Well put. A wise man once said, "Education will not teach you how to do anything, but it should teach you why you are doing it." Figuring out the "Why's" is what takes so long if you are self taught from books, etc. The people on this forum have been superb at explaining why. A Master is one who understands why they are doing each step.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#63 Post by mw73 »

Wow, thanks to everyone for your input. It really does help my thought process as I am still in the planning stages.

Jeff - I do realize that this is a career change that will take a few years probably. I don't view training dollars as a waste, it's more that I don't want to flounder and waste my time. No matter whether I go to the OK college program or do an intensive program with a master bootmaker, I will need to save up some money first and because of scheduling it will likely be a few months before I can get into a program. That means keeping my current day job for a while. Image

Qiana - Thank you for the personal perspective, and I hear you on the awkwardness of moving to Okmulgee! I think if I can work out an apprenticeship closer to (or in) Austin that would be better, and I am preparing myself to probably do an intensive training session or sessions with a master either way. The college school year doesn't begin until next August anyway, so going that route would mean I have to wait longer to start. My plan is to stop by and meet the Millers within the next week or so. I would love to make a trip to Guthrie sometime to meet you and Lisa Sorrell - I've seen her website and love her work. Maybe that's what I need to do - a custom boot shop roadtrip!

Jan-Erik - Thanks for the encouragement. I am sure that there are a lot of mistakes along with the way to becoming a competent bootmaker, much less a master. But a committment to continual improvement is the key.

Frank - Thanks for the teacher's view - your point about making the costly mistakes in college is well taken. Maybe I should be playing the lottery. Image Like Qiana, I just wish there were more college options in the US.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#64 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

Melissa.
You have got a lot of good advise here. I'll tell how I got into this trade. I got a job as an Othotic/Prosthecic Tech age 18, with the Canadian Government. We did most work for the WW !! Vet's. We also had two old shoemakers who did the orthopeadic shoe work. In my spare time I learned how to make a few pairs of shoes. They fellows had little formal training but were Good thinkers.

I developed a sever allergy to the plastics, so had to switch professions , I had a chance to work with a Master from Holland. He was a good craftsman, But a terrible teacher, His son was not bad shoemaker and thought a little more out of the box. When were were forming the Canadian Orthopeadic Footwear Association 1981. He could not wrap his mind around and Trade Union or a Professional Association.

I wanted to take a class in Toronto, He got all mad and made live a PITA, so I quit. And started on my own shop in another city and Province. Well COFA developed very well till we amalgamated with the "other Association".

Well all perked along well we were developing exams and then a wack of polotics arose, and the old real shoemakers got pushed out. They do offer a Masters designation but I could not qualify , financially and due to the conflict of interest, because I used to sit on the certification board and developed most of exam they wanted me to pay to write it. ????? Mind numbing at best. Nuff said have to keep the blood pressure in mind.

So I had a good background in many types of manufacture and used the best of new and old methods. I would look and something and try to work it back. Make a couple prototypes, My training was for the Ortho stuff but I did everything from fancy ladies pumps, kids shoes for friends first born, western boots, Packers, ropers, Ethic dane boots and slippers, wrestling boots, clown shoes. All sorts of modifications.
Misc leather work from saddle bags to things best not mentioned in a public forum. WINK.

But it is a tough living at best. I also worked as an RN for many years and am considering taking my refresher course Tuition and time about 10 grand Ouch.

I mostly do construction now but it is feast and famine and darn sickening. So think hard at shoemaking for a living. Perhaps your markets are different? As you see it can be done, but it is not like making kitchen cabinets, What is it you do now?

My.02 cents worth.

As for the term "Master" It is a term that is thrown round, in North America. Far different than european terms.

For what it is worth I shall give my definition of a master Shoemaker.
They can make any kind of shoe from a ballet slipper, Wellington, heavy duty work boots and dress boots and shoes.

They should understand why they are doing things, not just mindlessly performing a task. Know when to say not good enough and start over, and correct the lead up to the failure.

Which brings up understanding were the craft came from and yet be able to adapt to new materials and methods.

Can adapt materials and practise for the same end result.

Can do this wether attending school or an apprenticeship. Ideally both.

Run a business

Teach well. This takes people skills. Something sadly short in this day and age.

I welcome any additions to this defention.!!

In Canada I don't know of any course for shoemaking even shoe repair. I wrote the shoe repair program for our tech school 1985, but it got shelved soon after it started due to political means.

This is sad, that one of the oldest professions is not considered a real trade anymore. The lack of North American education is a disgrace.

As far as a "Heated Discussion" go to the Wood Work forums and ask if you cut your dovetails tails or pins first. Now that is a flaming war!!!

Regards
Brendan
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#65 Post by mw73 »

Brendan - Sounds like you took the long road. But you are passionate about what do you, I can tell.

As for me, I currently work in the high tech industry. I am great at my job, but I don't have a passion for it. I have been involved in the arts my whole life, though not as a professional. I can draw well and my painting is so-so but I prefer fabrication anyway - it is just much more satisfying. I have worked in mosaics and various sculpture media and not in leather. But I absolutely love boots and the challenge of form/fit/function - making something that is beautiful yet fits well and lasts a long time is what drew me to bootmaking. Oh, that and growing up in Central Texas. Did I mention how much I love boots?
marcell

Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#66 Post by marcell »

My additions:

- Master also means the highest achievable level of a craft. (I think it is quite international.)

- has a certificate.

I really believe that you can still find possibility to make a master exam in London, which is in English.. and I not just believe, but sure: you can find European countries - like Germany - where they organise courses for beeing a master. Unfortunately in German... but. This is an other addition for your definition:

in the good old times you HAVE to make a 3 years trip attending at least 10-12 workshops and learn a few months to became a master. All European master did that. This way masters spoke at least 2-3 languages. They counted to be really educated people in their times. Let me mention an example: we, Hungarian shoemaker still use german terms for tools. So when I was in Sweden, we could easily understood each other with Janne, if we didn't know a name for a tool - luckily Swedish shoemakers use those terms too.

So:

- A master should speak some extra languages to extend her/his kowledge continously.

And let me ask you a question my American friends: who do you think should organise a certification/course/degree for you for beein a certified shoemaker or moreover master? Why don't you make it for yourself? That's what guilds also did. (unfortunately it seems we have to start from that time)
Anyway: you are full with lawyers, consultants, politicians - at least once they should do something useful.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#67 Post by das »

DW,

Having followed this thread's dizzying growth, I've wanted to reply several times, then more posts would come with more twists and turns that wanted reflection, etc. Finally it's Saturday morning early, sun's not up yet, and I have some keyboard-time and a good cup of tea. Since you asked me to "weigh-in" on whether, under the definition(s) of "master" being bandied about, the USA ever had/produced a "master" boot/shoemaker?

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word "master" has meanings including these as the most relevant::

I. A person or thing having control or authority.
1. a. gen. A person (predominantly, a man) having authority, direction or control over the action of another or others; a director, leader, chief, commander; a ruler, governor. Now arch.
In later use chiefly applied to a king, prince, etc., in relation to his ministers or officers, and as such hard to distinguish from sense A. 2. [followed by examples from King Aelfred-1888]

c. The manager, overseer, etc., of a shop, factory, or other business. Now hist.

c1400 Burgh Laws (Bute) c. 71 in Dict. Older Sc. Tongue at Maister, Master, Nane sal hafe in his ovyn ma servandis na iiii the maystyr and twa servandis & aknafe. 1627 in J. H. Macadam Baxter Bks. St. Andrews (1903) 87 James Broun and Patrik Walker, maisteris of the said James his baikhous. 1652 in Rec. Mass. Bay (1854) III. 261 John Hull, master of the said Mint. 1662 J. LAMONT Diary (1830) 143 William Lundy..measter of the mille. 1794 E. BURKE Speech in Impeachment W. Hastings in Wks. (1827) XV. 365 Employing military men..as masters of markets and of gunges. 1798 Monthly Mag. 5 395 Mr. Munday, late master of the Falstaff inn. 1859 DICKENS Tale of Two Cities I. v. 20 The master of the wine-shop..in a yellow waistcoat and green breeches. 1954 W. WALLACE Pedlars 12 In the spring of 1773 he conceived the idea of carrying his furs down to York factory... The master at York factory was not receptive to this idea. 1992 J. RULE Vital Cent. (BNC) 198 Child labour recommended themselves [sic] to the early factory masters.

2. a. A person who employs another; (formerly esp.) the employer of a servant or apprentice (cf. sense A. 14). Also: the owner of a slave (see also MAS' n.1, MASSA n.).
The extended S. Afr. use (now rare) to denote any white male may belong here; cf. sense A. 20a.
lord and master: see LORD n. 2a.
eOE KING ÆLFRED tr. Gregory Pastoral Care (Tiber.) xvii. 108 Hit is nidearf æt mon his hlaford ondræde, & se cniht his magister. c1300 Body & Soul (Laud Misc. 108) (1889) 47, I olede e..To be maister and i i cnave. c1390 CHAUCER Cook's Tale 4399 This ioly prentys with his maister bood. c1390 (a1376) LANGLAND Piers Plowman (Vernon) A. III. 211 Seruaunts..Take Meede of heore Maystres. a1500 (?c1450) Merlin (1899) i. 3 The heirdes..tolde their maister the mervelle. 1526 Hundred Mery Tales (1866) 146 Here is nother mayster nor man. 1600 SHAKESPEARE Merchant of Venice V. i. 47 My Maister will be heere ere morning. 1623 KING JAMES VI & I in J. Rushworth Hist. Coll. (1659) I. 127 He is a happy man that serves a good Master. 1711 R. STEELE Spectator No. 107. 1 The general Corruption of Manners in Servants is owing to the conduct of Masters. ?1746 ‘T. BOBBIN’ View Lancs. Dial. 3 Meh Measter had lik't o kill meh. 1765 W. BLACKSTONE Comm. Laws Eng. I. xiv. 416 A Master may by law correct his apprentice. 1788 W. COWPER Negro's Compl. iii, Think, ye masters iron-hearted. 1833 J. G. WHITTIER Abolitionists in Prose Wks. (1889) III. 64 A majority of the masters..are disposed to treat their..slaves with kindness. 1833 Graham's Town Jrnl. (S. Afr.) 6 June 2, I know that they beat the old master, and that he fell. 1843 G. BORROW Bible in Spain II. xvi. 345, I have lived in many houses and served many masters. 1880 J. MCCARTHY Hist. our Own Times IV. liv. 171 The masters and the workmen. 1914 J. M. BARRIE Admirable Crichton I. 65 The same person might not be master; the same persons might not be servants. 1962 S. WYNTER Hills of Hebron vi. 81 His master..made his mother a house-slave so that Cato could grow up in the big house. 1980 Capetonian Jan. 26 Jus' cos I worked for a otta masters and merrems [i.e. madams] doesn't mean to say I'se a rondloper wot cannot hold down a job. 1991 Investors Chron. 16 Aug. 17/2 His employees are known as ‘Sugarlumps’, slavish devotees of their master's no-nonsense work ethic.

14. A skilled workman or craftsman; a workman who is in business on his own account, as distinguished from a journeyman (now merged with sense A. 2). Originally: a workman qualified by training and experience to teach apprentices (chiefly in appositive compounds, as master carpenter, etc.: see Compounds 1d). Now chiefly hist.
Also in extended use, merging with sense A. 16.
c1300 Childhood Jesus (Laud) 1196 in C. Horstmann Altengl. Legenden (1875) 1st Ser. 41 wan e maister was i go, Jhus tok alle e cloes o. c1390 CHAUCER Cook's Tale 4399 This ioly prentys with his maister bood Til he were neigh out of his prentyshood. 1417 in M. Sellers York Mem. Bk. (1912) I. 182 If any man..will occupy here in this cite in girdelercrafte als a maister, he sall pay..x s. 1490 CAXTON tr. Foure Sonnes of Aymon (1885) x. 265, I sholde goo gyve you suche a stroke..that ye sholde saye it is a stroke of a maister. c1540 (?a1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 8733 o maisturs gert make a meruelous toumbe. 1585 T. WASHINGTON tr. N. de Nicolay Nauigations Turkie IV. xxiv. 140 An ingenious maister..proposed vnto him [sc. Alexander] that..he would make to be cut in humain figure, the mount of Athos. 1693 Humours Town 35 Masters in their Profession. 1707 E. WARD Wooden World Dissected (1708) 27 In this kind of Billingsgate Clashing he's a much greater Master, than [etc.]. 1759 JOHNSON Prince of Abissinia I. vi. 35 He..found the master busy in building a sailing chariot. 1829 R. SOUTHEY Sir Thomas More II. 174 A craft in which any one may commence master, without having served an apprenticeship. 1840 R. H. DANA Two Years before Mast 470 A parent may correct moderately his child, and the master his apprentice. 1991 Dance Res. 9 15 Whether a master ‘found’ for his apprentices or expected them to house, feed, and clothe themselves varied from man to man.

Since this post just got huge, I'll try to be succinct in closing. Yes DW, There have been millions of "master" boot/shoemakers in the USA from 1610 onward, however the system of advancing here was (had been) different than 1800s-today's vocational training/certification schemes in Hungary, Sweden, Germany, cited by others here. Universally apprentices (minors) were trained and became journeymen (derives from French jour=day, hence day-workers) at or around their age of majority. In Germany and German-influenced regions, at some periods, apprenticeship usually required that one move around and work under multiple masters, but the "journey" in journeyman comes from jour=day, not journeying around. In Britain and the US this swapping service under different masters was unknown.

If, rather than when, a UK/European journeyman decided to set up his own shop and shift his legal status from mere employee to employer his legal status had to change to "master". Freedom of the city or town had to be sought, and permission granted by the authorites (guilds in their day, later municipal governments or overseeing bureaucrats).

It's probably legitimate to say that this is pretty muddy--legal stuff is. "Master" means many things, but in our case it means/meant: 1) legally the shop owner, employer of others, who was responsible to see that apprentices in his charge were trained; 2) a workman of advanced skills qualified to do the later. There're "masters" and then there "masters"--masters of a shop, and simply masters of "their trade". One could/can be the second without being the first IOW.

From 1610 into the 1800s, shoe/bootmakers in America came predominantly from all over Britain, especially London at first, but other cities and towns were well represented, and their pedigrees confess they were quite legitimate Cordwainers in most cases. By the 1800s the USA was not really a place for Old World master shoe/bootmakers anyway, as the drum-beat of mechanization of the "Industrial Revolution" was underway, and shoe/bootmaking was being simplified (dumbed-down?) by pegging, and then machine sewing. Makers of high-end, bespoke footwear were a minority here, and the lion's share of workers faced going to work in factories or going out of business. It's worth noting that US apprentice contracts and "indentures" well into the 19thc. differed little in their stipulations and requirements from their Old World brothers. In early America you had no guilds per se, and while almost anybody could hang out a sign and go into business, only the highest caliber of workmen thrived in the cities, and the lesser skilled either moved to the country, frontier, or were left in the dust--the market controlled, not guilds or bureaucrats, and your own skills and ingenuity either made you or broke you IOW like that movie phrase--"we don't need no stinking badges". The courts still exercised oversight of apprenticships, orphans in many cases, but in other cases these were less formal.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#68 Post by marcell »

I think this conversation is getting too much for my English level - as I mentioned I am not so good in semantic conversations. Good luck!
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#69 Post by das »

Ok, with the mini-history lesson over, I'll change hats here and offer just my personal thoughts on issues raised in this thread.

Bull-headed(?) Masters--
Having been raised in an artisan family, and growing up around my dad's workbench, I've heard my share of this "my way or the highway" mentality. After 37 years in this trade, having trained 11 apprentices (5-6 of whom were six or seven year formal apprenticeships), I was glad dad took the time to clarify this. It's natural and good for learners to question everything, and want to wander and explore--and I've done my fair share of experimenting and dabbling too--it's just not the best way to teach. If the goal is to get someone from point A to point B, the journey is methodical, structured, and based on rudiments--building blocks What I usually say is: "over the centuries there have been many different ways to do this task, but I'm going to teach you the one that has worked best for me. When you are on your own you're free to try anything you like...". Shoemaking skills, like learning a language, have to be imparted step by step. First you learn the alphabet, then complete words, then sentences and punctuation, and then prose. Or, as with certain musical instruments, complex flourishes can be done any of several ways with the same effect, but when learning you must pick one and drill in that. If you constantly change from one to another, that particular fingering will always be "rough". It's the same in our trade--experimenting with the umpteen ways to attach a bristle to a thread is counter-productive after a while, when you need to be making shoes. Teachers can only teach what they themselves know best. Also 99.9% of all long-term apprentices go through a cock-of-the-walk phase where they think they know more than the teacher, God, and anybody, or like to assert their new-found self-assurance by arguing and challenging everything. This is part of the process, and it's the teacher's responsibility to use this fledgling energy creatively, but at least not allow it to derail the whole process of getting from A to B. Like raising kids, it's all about progressively breaking away and eventually leaving. In this day and age the trendy codswallop about various "learning styles" and "learning disabilities", I'm afraid, has escaped the public school classrooms and is pervading every training endeavor. For the teachers out there, read everything you can on education by Jacques Barzun.

Self-taught vs. Formally Trained--
There are many paths up the same mountain, some are well-trodden, smoother and full of companions; others are rocky, dangerous, and lonely "off the beaten path". I say choose whichever appeals to you; however, you're more likely to fall off a cliff or never be heard from again going it all alone. But then, too, the reward is perhaps greater if you reach the summit entirely on your own. These are just things everybody must weigh for themselves. Also, not anyone can become an exceptional bespoke shoe/bootmaker no more than they can become a concert pianist or Olympic athlete. There are shoe/bootmakers and then there are shoe/bootmakers, which leads me to one other thought. Is it entirely fair to define a "Cordwainer" or shoe/.bootmaker today strictly in terms of the very few (very!) who, possessed with exceptional eye and talent (and business acumen) can single-handedly get a living measuring, making or fitting-up lasts, draughting patterns, clicking, closing, making and finishing all by themselves? All through the 10,000+ year history of our trade there have always been exceptional artisans who, no doubt, like many in the HCC and on the Forum do it this way, but they have always been the few, the proud, the brave. Just as prize-work at 64 spi was historically never the benchmark standard, neither was/is one-man-band shoe/bootmaking. Look at history... bottom end, in the one-man-band homely family shop, you had the "master", his wife, all children of handy age, every family member able to wield a tool, plus the apprentices and journeymen. To scrap this model would be to scrap most of our known trade-history. And to abandon the advantages of task specific division of labor (think the shift from hunter-gathers to agriculture) would be to chuck the past 2,000 years of shoemaking. Sure, one person can make jaw-dropping boots and shoes working alone in today's artist-studio workshops like many of us, but this "Luxe" level making would have been entirely out of the question in most places 100 years and more ago. John Dacres Devlin, of 64 spi "shamrock" boot tongue fame was a trade-closer allegedly--all he did was close uppers.

Good Hobby?--
Not to put too fine a point on it, but shoe/bootmaking (at any level of sophistication that is) as a hobby "sucks". Besides the fact that it's brinkmanship at best--you can really hurt or cripple yourself and others with footwear, the better materials and tools are nigh impossible to find anymore, and not cheap when you can. It's also very difficult to dabble in shoe/bootmaking on your own and not be constantly beaten down by failure after failure. I'm going to duck for cover after this one, but: ever wonder why hobby-woodworking is so universally popular? The tools and materials are readily found everywhere in great profusion, "successes" are easy for a beginner, and a crooked set of shelves never crippled anybody. If one can manage to assemble a fully equipped shoe/boot workshop on a hobbyist's (versus an obsessed maniac's) budget, one is still likely to be left in the dust trying to make a product to compete with the "pros" out there.

Skill Levels Real or Alleged--
At maybe the second HCC meeting back in the mid-1980s there was discussion of admitting members to the guild according to their demonstrated skill levels, and using titles like "apprentice", "journeyman", etc. We even discussed calling our officers "master" and "wardens" after the Worshipful Co. in London, until the more Presbyterian-minded Sons of Liberty screamed bloody murder. We even held a few prize-work competitions, but these did more to intimidate less advanced members than inspire advancing skills. Whether it was the opprobrium of the membership at large, or the prevailing winds of the post-modern, post-industrial world of that day, rather than set up the HCC as an old boys club where only the elite meet to pat themselves on the back, we went this opposite direction--what you see today, a democratic community of shoe/bootmakers from around the globe. The HCC has renewed some discussions with the WCC, and one item I keep putting forward is to explore the possibility of the HCC acting as a remote testing agent for The City & Guilds of London certificate in hand-sewn shoemaking. So, for those lusting for a framed certificate, there may be one down the road. Stay tuned.

This has been a really invigorating thread to follow. Sorry I had to wait 'til now and "dump" lengthy posts. And on the "what is a master?" thing, don't let the intervening centuries, and the peculiarities of law/customs in various countries/regions confound you. We all see shoe/bootmakers who should probably not be doing it, as well as self-styled "masters" who probably shouldn't breathe the title. But that is all so archaic now; what we have here, the open support and encouragement amongst peers does far more to "preserve our trade" than reviving and doling out hoary titles that conveyed different meanings in various places and times, and which if followed to the letter would only, legally, include those of us in the English-speaking world who have apprentices/employees, no matter how high our skill-level Image
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#70 Post by das »

Marcell,

Not trying to "semantic" you to death, but DW asked for my straight forward input on "masters" in the US/history. I was just replying to his request. Obviously in Hungary and elsewhere in Europe, since the decline of the Medieval trade guilds as such, various and varying bureaucracies have grown up to cover the certification and licensing of various trades including ours. In some cases these overlapped what the old guilds did (scotch competition from outsiders, set prices/wages, protect the monopoly of local masters, and insure some level of apprentice training was maintained). In other ways these organizations were creatures of their day (the 19thc) trying to preserve and protect the traditional hand-worker's status from being lost to the factory and industrialization of the age.

It's worth pointing out again, most of the "prize-work" that survives, and the competitions held at the various expositions (in Europe and elsewhere) mostly date from the 19thc, when the traditional hand-workers were defiantly still showing the world that they could do by hand incredibly fine work what no machine could ever imitate. They were in direct competition with machine-made made footwear. You could say that the mechanization of our trade in the mid-19thc. (late compared to many other industries) almost did more to inspire shoe/bootmakers into higher standards of excellence than any other factor before that. Hand-shoemaking was under severe pressure, and if it was to survive at all, it had to re-invent itself. Thus it became the "Luxe" bespoke tradition we see surviving today. Before that, good, bad, or indifferent, by-hand was just the way all shoes were made--mass-produced ready-made in sizes for the masses, bespoke only for the wealthier class or hard-to-fit feet.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#71 Post by dw »

Al,

Wow! Maybe it is the thoroughness (and length) maybe it is the articulation, maybe it is the straight-forward but relaxed way in which you expressed yourself but I thoroughly enjoyed this essay. It is one that, if the forum software allowed, I would make "sticky" (here forever, in other words.

That said...I still don't know whether master's exams and certification was ever offered here in the US...maybe I missed or overlooked your answer?

And in passing I offer this one wee bit of...not really disagreement but maybe other angle:

On another forum the thought was offered that every shoemaker must strike a balance between being an artisan and being a businessman (of course it was a businessman who made that observation). It's not that I disagree...as far as it goes...but I think it misses the essential issues. Hence my response:
With all due respect...and zero crankiness...this is not a judgment that someone who is not an artisan can make. (parenthetically, I would say "shoemaker" and "shoe manufacturer" to make the distinction)

Especially in today's world. In this thread alone we have seen that the "market"--the consumers--have been so habituated to the idea of cheap shoes, and have so bought into the factory mentality that it is nearly impossible for a shoemaker to reach them--there is little common ground. A bespoke shoemaker needs to appeal to a different, perhaps unique, market...one that values quality and the "humanity" of hand work above all else.

No shoemaker can possibly compete with a manufacturer who has a "name" (I would say unwarranted in some cases) and can buy leathers that are not commonly available simply because they can buy them in freight car quantities...and at astoundingly low prices; and, further, can put out literally thousands of pairs of shoes a day.

To compete on any terms the shoemaker must offer something absolutely unique in the way of skill and fit and service.

Perhaps he needs a sense of the possible and, marginally, a sense of business. But what he is selling is not so much a commodity but an artifact...maybe even something more remarkable--

"...he steps up to his workbench and opens up a vein. He puts himself in every pair that's why they bear his name."

There's no room for "balance" in the sense you mean.


I believe this is the essence of what you are terming "Luxe," if I am understanding you correctly. I also believe that now more than ever before...with the advent of the Internet...it is possible to hold to the implied standards and ideals that inform this "Luxe" maker and never look backwards.

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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#72 Post by marcell »

I think we lost the focus, and this was partly my mistake. My grandfather always said: let your work speak instead of you. It think he was right, and I can just use these words in to this situation: it seems that I overestimate certificates and papers, but I don't. Even if we think different things about beeing a master shoemaker (and not just "master" generally), I think we can agree one thing - your work is the real proof.

So let's get back to the workbench, close those lexicons, and make your master certificate there! Image
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#73 Post by dw »

Marcel,

Well I'm feeling a little contrary so I am going to disagree with you.

I think you have to know what you think about things...even things that don't have direct bearing on the work at hand. If you don't know what you think, then it is very hard to know what to do. Very hard to establish standards for yourself...whether they relate to the Traditions you, yourself, mentioned early on in this thread or some other.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly with your grandfather. Ultimately the work is the final proof. Even someone who is a "hobby" maker can sometimes surpass those who consider themselves professionals. I know someone who fits that description to a tee. And if their work is that good, the "professionals" only demean themselves by suggesting otherwise.

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(Message edited by dw on December 05, 2009)
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#74 Post by das »

DW,

Yikes, I figured that was implicit. There never was any masters' "certification" in the old days. Your apprenticeship ended with journeyman (day-worker) status. "Master" was merely legalese for being the business proprietor and taking in apprentices. In the UK you had to be declared a "freeman" of your city/town first. In the US we white guys were all "free" Image

No "certification", but like Marcell's g-dad and common sense tells you, you can't be a "master" if you're a crappy shoemaker. I suspect any skill certification as "master" per se was a 19thc.post industrial revolution thing.

As to "balance", look, either you can chase after great wealth (merely mass producing), or after great quality (rogue artisanal making), or any shade in between. It's never been either/or, black or white. It just depends on your temperament and where you set the bar for yourself. The quote you cite from another forum is interesting, albeit, but you can make the best damned shoes/boots in the world, but if you can't get your goods out he door to market in sufficient quantity, or keep accounts, you are up the chute. There have been too many outstanding "starving artist" shoe/bootmakers in the world the past 30 years who've all gone by the board. And while perhaps not quite as obsolete as buggy whip-makers, bespoke shoe/bootmakers are forced to either learn the ropes of the "Luxe" fashionista market, or perish--what we're making is by today's standards a luxury product more than at any time in the past.
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Re: apprenticeships and schooling

#75 Post by dw »

Al,

Thanks for that. I thought I had read, or heard you say "never..." before, sometime in the distant past. i guess I just needed to have it reiterated.

You know that whole concept of business is overplayed in my book. I think it is just commonsense that if you have made a product that you want to market, you'll market it at the most advantageous level you can. I doubt it really has anything at all to do with "business." Particularly, when I think about all the much touted strategies that business employs.

How many business models advocate spend needless dollars on substitutes for materials that they are literally throwing out the door? At the same time how many business models propose educating the public as a way to create interest and generate sales?

Yet addressing both of those considerations is essential to "get the goods out the door" especially in this day and age. Don't do the first and do do the second.

The traditional business model has always been to "minimize costs and maximize output." The desired goal being the widest possible gap between cost of production and profit.

But I suspect...and have tailored my own career in this fashion...that it is far more important to offer something that is demonstrably unique in its quality and resonant with human sensibilities. People want there to be a "someone" behind the product...not a machine. And more importantly a someone who cares and is passionate about the work.

Especially with access to, and judicious use of the Internet, all of this can be done without much recourse to studying utils and analyzing profit margin ratios. I've seen it come about just in my years in the Trade--many people who before-time would have laboured in obscurity have emerged as leading lights.

If we insist on following the old models, I think we risk, well...labouring in obscurity, if only because we end up competing in a market characterized by "sameness." And there we will always be at a disadvantage for lack of capital to promote our products and too high a cost of production resulting, at least in part, from paying ourselves a living wage, rather paying some piece-work peon minimum wage.

There are far more people who will brook no compromise in this world...and you have to think in global terms, these days...than we know. They are our legitimate market. But only if we can offer them what they want.

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