apprenticeships and schooling

[courtney]

Marcell,

You are amazing and I am not trying to be disrespectfull of your years of knowledge and dedication to the craft but,

I think that people without access to be able to train under a master can learn to do this.

It will undoubtedly take longer, with more frustration, and more trial and error. but there are lots of books that can give you a basis to learn from. You would definatley have to have a sincere driving interest.

In my own real job I am a pinstriper and do gold leaf lettering and ornamental gilding. These are crafts that date back to the romans who decorated thier carriages with scrolls etc.

I never trained under a master to learn this but have picked up what I could from talking to others and books, etc.

I have gilded and striped the Leland Stanford mansion and Cathedral of Blessed Sacrement, two very historically significant places in California, gold leafed and striped a half million dollar 32 roadster and had my work featured in books, magazines and on television.

I am only saying that I think I can learn to make shoes if I keep at this, and that others with a driving desire should not be discouraged to at least give it a try if they really want to and are unable to find a master to teach them.

In my own work there are many things that could be shown to someone in only a few minutes but to actually be able to do them and understand what your doing and why could take years.

All that being said, I dont claim to be any kind of shoe or bootmaker yet, but I believe that desire, drive, and practice are the keys to learning anything.

Django Reinhardt the great gypsy jazz guitarist didnt even know what a c note was, only had two fingers that worked on his left hand and was one of the best jazz musicians of all time.

Courtney

[marcell]

Lisa: I realle appreciate your post. Thanks for that!

DW and Courtney: I don't have any problems using videos, books, whatever.. but please try learn the craft the traditional way! There are pleanty of things, what you just can't learn from books - like basics. No book will teach you that. Someone must help you how to keep the knife, how to hold the sharpening stone, how to hold the last, tell you if you make a mistake etc.. That is 2-4 days in my courses, but at least 1 day - even if the whole course is only 3.

We have at least 4000 years of continous tradition! You will get that knowledge from "frustration, and more trial and error" and books???

I teach shoemakers - total beginners, half professionals, sometimes even masters and.. many times self taught people. They don't know the very basic things, using pleanty of leather, time and efforts and usually they produce garbage. That is much more expensive than find someone and make a few weeks internship. Don't tell me is someone really want to find a master - she/he can. If you don't want - that is another case.

Would you trust a self taught dentist? A self taught policeman or electrician? Why a shoemaker is different? A shoe is responsibile for supporting holding, balancing and moving the entire body. It is not a bag or a wallet. If you make a bad shoe you can seriously damage your customers (friend, relatives - whoever you make the shoes for) health. Makign a shoe is a responsibility. It is not improvisation with a guitar.

In my coutry and I believe most of the European countries you can claim that you are a shoemaker, if you have a proper certificate. It is very difficult to get now. Taking the master exam is even more difficult - 60-70% fails - but I am happy that it is protected like this here.

Please accept it from me - and forgive me for this post. If I could express myself softer I would. This is not my mother tongue, so I just wrote what I think about my lovely, beautiful craft.

[luckyduck]

Marcell,et al.

I see your point that it is best to learn from a master, if you can. In fact I did a 6 month apprenticeship with a person who has been making shoes for 30 years. Unfortunately it was a terrible experience with very little teaching of techniques and no appreciation of history or even much quality. (I would get yelled at for asking why we did stuff the way we did and how it was better than described in Golding or some other dead guy book.)

Combine that experience with stories of the European model of testing and makes me wonder if there is something we could do here in the US to signify that a person really knows what they are doing? The pedorthist route does not seem applicable, but maybe there is something I am missing. It would be great to be able to get some sort of certification to show we know enough to make a sound shoe that probably won't hurt anyone.

Discuss, please.

Thanks
Paul

[artzend]

Marcell

I understand your concerns about self teaching, but even going to college doesn't guarantee that you actually know what you are doing when you finish a year there.

Add to that the fact that there are not that many teachers around, and the distances that are involved and if someone wants to at least get a feel for the craft to see if they want to pursue it, then self teaching is worthwhile.

The ideal would be for enough teachers to be able to travel constantly to far away places, but that is pretty unlikely.

If anyone is keen enough to start, then their experiences will help them when they find that there are blocks to their learning and they seek out a teacher. Then, what they have learnt will help to understand better what the teacher is saying and their time with him will be much more valuable than if they had gone in for a few day's course with no understanding.

Tim

[jkrichard]

Marcell, DW, Lisa, Tim, et al,
I agree that an apprenticeship under the right master (my assumption being that they are truly a master) can be a wonderful, amazing experience... however, let's assume that most aspiring makers cannot afford to take off from work, live in a location far from their home, and take little to no pay for a long term apprenticeship, or afford the price of many of the private week/two week apprenticeships that are offered.**
What would your advice be to the average aspiring maker with an average (not so inspiring) income...?

-Jeff

**I am not knocking the price of private apprenticeships offered by masters here. I fully understand the costs associated with teaching boot/shoemaking. I understand that time teaching takes away from time earning as a maker. I also personally believe that a person should be compensated for their time---and truthfully most masters are undercompensated trying to meet income demands of their students.

[niksag03]

Wow, I feel I started a heated discussion over training from a master vs. learning from a book. I fully agree on what you guys are saying and I understand. I only wanted some suggestions on what books are out there to begin learning the skills before taking a course with a master. ))

[artzend]

Jeff

I was in that position. I did a year at college and then moved to Australia and settled in the far north of the country. There were very few teachers that I could find. I knew about George Koleff for a few years but when you add, a relatively low income, wife and two kids, then going to the other end of the country, South Australia, (Australia is around the size of the US), for any length of time was not really viable. In the end, the learning that I had done made it really easy to go a long way further with relatively little extra tuition.

Mind you, I probably did much more research than most and had a good pattern cutting background, which gave me a good understanding of what I was trying to achieve.

I agree with Marcell that it would be perfect to work with a master full time, so when my circumstances changed I went back to George. I do think that once you know some of the answers, a little bit more information pulls things together. It also makes it easier for the teacher too, once they work out what you know, it's easier to teach what you need to know.

Tim

[jkrichard]

Tim,
I am not in that position, I have been very fortunate that my life's unfortunate events led me to living close to our nation's only public school for bootmaking... I am also fortunate that I never touched a Western saddle as I had originally intended to learn to make... because once I started on boots, and later shoes... the doors for me were swung wide open for me. Having the ability to attend a school for a year, under a very competent bootmaker has been crucial for me to be able to take the basics and apply them to things we don't normally do (i.e. men's dress shoes, high heels, etc), without the fundamentals, someone else's experience to rely on, and an instructor that was willing to guide and direct but not force...
But not everyone is that fortunate---and I try to be mindful of that. Not everyone is in the position to study under a master full time, or even part time, so I don't blame them for clinging on to the resources that they do have.

Sue,
This isn't a heated discussion...if you want 'heated,' mention the word 'celastic.' O.o

-Jeff

[artzend]

Jeff

I was going to be a saddler too. I was a leather carver for most of the 70s. I wanted to do cowboy saddles but got accepted on the shoemaking course at Cordwainers the day before I was accepted on the saddlery course. For which, I am eternally grateful.

Tim

[sorrell]

This isn't a heated discussion...if you want 'heated,' mention the word 'celastic.'

Jeff,
You crack me up. You sure catch on quickly!

Lisa

[qiana_markham]

All,

This is an interesting topic that makes me curious. What advice can some of the more seasoned makers offer to someone genuinely interested in learning this craft? Any suggestions on how to make a living while seriously learning to make footwear?

By definition, If you are doing something that is not your main occupation it is a hobby. How can I make this craft my occupation, make it generate a living?

Are there opportunities to work within the traditional methods of this craft for someone starting out in the US? How about abroad?

If so, I would love to know of them.

Any feedback would be truly appreciated.

[artzend]

Qiana

You ask a very tricky question. I originally bought a craft shop (1981) when things were probably much simpler, and worked in there with my wife. It meant that I was an attraction and sometimes had to do shop stuff, but not all the time.

It meant that there was a main income stream while I got established and learnt a lot.

When I took on a protege, I was running my own shop and she worked only on shoes but I was paying most of the work related bills until she got established. That worked out ok too. She took pressure off me in the shop and we worked together for over 10 years. She took over the shop then and still runs it.

If you can find someone to let you work in their shop and pay by either being an attraction, or tending shop occasionally, it's as good as any other way I can think of. I have no idea how I would do it today.

Tim

[janne_melkersson]

I might add that this forum is about to preserve the trade and I am sure that all info saved here plus books, videos, other forums and shorter classes wherever they can be found is a good start for an enthusiastic student.

I was apprentice for three years in an orthopedic shop. Even though I had a couple of masters around me the first pair ended up as a piece of junk! In Wichita Falls I have seen boots on the newbie table that where the makers second and third pair and they had done it by books, videos and a couple of shorter classes. They where fantastic and even more when you get to know how the maker starter the career!

Having said this I want to encourage all who is about to learn the trade by saying congrats, it will be an exciting journey and like those of us who have been around sometime you gona improve pair by pair.

[marcell]

I wish I could be a nice person like you Janne!

[janne_melkersson]

Marcel,
don't worry you are a nice guy, didn't I invite you to Sweden a second time :-)

Seriously, I think that it is a risk we raise the bar to high regarding our trade. It is a tricky business indeed but it is not impossible to learn it the autodidact way. It might not be the best way but it is one way.

Also, I think that making shoes and boots very well can be a hobby or a not full time work. I know because I am not a full time maker. We have three kids who I take to school and all that comes along with kids. We also have two milk cows who need to be milked twice a day. Twice a week I make cheese of the milk we can not drink so I guess I am not in the shop more 3-4 hours a day. Sometimes I think of it as a hobby and I am quite comfortable with that.

ps this will be changed next spring because we are about to move towards Stockholm so I guess I will be back in front of the bench full time pretty soon

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on December 02, 2009)

[qiana_markham]

Tim,

I did ask a tricky question. But this is a tricky craft and it requires it. I quit my full time job about 2 years ago to learn this trade on a serious level.

I wholeheartedly agree that it takes a serious commitment and respect for it to truly learn this craft. In reality though I worry, that if I desire to make this craft my occupation that it won't pay the bills. Does that make me a hobbyist? How can I make it pay the bills starting out without an another stream of income be that retirement, spouse or military.

So last night I asked the seasoned makers how this craft can be an occupation? I asked because surely there is someone here who has made this craft their occupation and can offer some words of wisdom on how to do this professionally starting out.

I appreciate your feedback and suggestion of being an attraction. It could be a great idea in the right place and I am pretty sure I'd be a good one too!

@qianamarkham

[marcell]

Janne... You are a master, one of the bests of this time. You are definetely not a hobby crafter I can tell you.

I think if you learn the craft the autodidact way, you just miss a lot and spend much more money if you would find someone, who can help you.

[janne_melkersson]

Marcel,
thank you for the kind words but I think you exaggerates a bit!

In Sweden you can still make a test and apply for a master diploma. I have not done that so literally I am not a master. But I do have a journeyman's diploma in the orthopedic trade and that is fine with me because I'm still on a journey. I don't work hard to get that masters diploma because it doesn't say much today. What's counts is if the clients like the shoes I make or not.

By autodidact I meant not that you had to invent all things from the beginning but to search for knowledge where you can find it.

It could be found here on this forum, in books, in your videos on youtube and a week or two with an experienced maker for mention some places.

But I agree with you, going autodidact you could miss a lot and it will cost money but I think that all kinds of learning cost if not money so hard work but mostly both.

[dw]

Janne, Marcel,

I agree with both of you. However, although I do believe that one can teach themselves the rudiments of shoemaking or bootmaking...and even push the envelope beyond the basics....I think that somewhere along the line you'll reach a point where you simply cannot get any better without access to someone who is truly a master. And if you are really dedicated you'll know when that point arrives.

Moreover, I believe...as Marcel implied...you can't get any better unless you know where the Trade came from--the Traditions, in other words. And respect them. And of course, the best way to do that is to learn and if possible master them.

I may not use boars bristles and linen yarn anymore but I have done and it has made me a better maker at the deepest levels. And what's more it has given me insights both into the genius of the elder makers and the traditional techniques, as well as allowed me to modify some of those techniques to accommodate more readily available materials without significantly compromising the very genius of them.

It begs the question though, doesn't it...what is a master? Who is a master? (once upon a time "master" simply meant that you owned the shop) And, more importantly, how do you gain access to him/her?

Truth to tell, books can give you access to that master. I am not sure that reading Golding or Thornton can really take you from the student level to the next level. But I suspect that if you are already a "journeyman" (for lack of a better term) they can at least take you closer to the the next step.

And books and videos can surely take you from absolute beginner to student.

A wise man once said that the student must be ready to learn. In my experience even if the student has years of experience, a great deal of what the teacher presents will be missed.

As an example, look at how long it has been since the book Hand Made Shoes for Men was published and how long it has been since it came to the attention of members of this forum. Yet we are still picking up small tips and techniques just looking at photographs....albeit over and over again.

Imagine how much more is lost when you take a course with a teacher and cannot review his words--you only have one shot at absorbing everything he/she is trying to pass on. Time and distance make that almost the default in this day and age and if you don't know what you missed you can't even frame a question to recapture it.

Even if the student is a master maker himself...if he is presented with techniques that he cannot understand or doesn't believe are possible or, more to the point, worth learning...the likelihood that he will miss or dismiss those techniques or tricks, rises exponentially.

But ultimately...and I think it a notion that is worth bearing in mind...learning this business is always fundamentally autodidactic for the simple reason that it always comes back to the energy, passion, and determination of the student. Without that even a seven year apprenticeship with a master shoemaker won't make a competent journeyman.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[j_johansen]

From what I have understood of trades (goldsmithing, carpentry, & bootmaking) and arts(martial) that I have been a part of, a person becomes a Master by furthering their students learning to the point that they (the learning student) becomes a skilled teacher in their own right.
I also want to note that I think it is important to learn from a master because he or she will teach you all the names of the elves, so they don't get cranky and break your machines instead of finishing the work at night.
Over the last 3 years learning to make boots (shoeschool & twice at DW's) I have discoverd that I personally have not been able to make a living solely from bootmaking. However I expect that will change over the next 30-40 years.

J.

[marcell]

DW,


Well we can start a semantic conversation (please don't!) but I can easily answer to your question with my simple Hungarian brain (I believe Janne will 100% agreee with me)

Master is someone who completed a master exam and get a certification about it from a Chamber, which granted to give this title by the law. These are the normative requirement to call yourself "master". If you just use this title without certificate - this still counts to be literaly a crime in Europe.

Master exam is pretty difficult even now - more than 50% of candidates fails. (I recently passed and I was the only one from 3). In Europe (I don't know how was in the States) "master" never ment that you have a shop - you must have been accepted as a master, and that exam was even more difficult than now. Sorry to contradict you.

(Message edited by Marcell on December 02, 2009)

(Message edited by Marcell on December 02, 2009)

[marcell]

Let me post a photo about the " Budapest Chamber of Shoemakers" building. "We" got this secession style building built in 1905. This was one of the authority which was responsibile to controll the shoemaker-related businesses, like master certificates, education.. etc.

I would like to state that I call people MASTER - like Janne - who I rescpect because of his work, his career and personality, but it doesn't mean that you can call youself if you are not. This is like beeing a DR. Phd, etc.. I just wanted to extend my last post with it.

So Master Janne and Master DW, what do you think about it?

[mw73]

Hi all,

I'm new around here, and I thought I'd stop lurking, say hi and introduce myself and ask for some expert opinions.

I'm not currently trained as a cordwainer, but I would like to begin a career one - specifically as a western bootmaker. I live in Austin, TX and I know there are about 2-3 custom bootmakers in town, but I don't know if any of them will take me on as a student/apprentice without any experience. So I would like some professional opinions on what the best and most cost effective way to get into the business would be.

I know there are a few people who offer 2-3 week courses in beginning bootmaking across the country, some even in Texas. In your opinion, is taking one of those classes a better option than going to the school for a year in Okmulgee? Obviously cost is a factor, because even after training I will need to buy equipment and materials. I am 36 years old and wanting to make a career change, and I don't want to waste any time or money floundering around while doing so. I want to get the best training that I can, as quickly as I can.

Could I ask some of you to weigh in?

Thank you in advance,

MW

Edit: Just to be clear, I am assuming that I will need to find an apprenticeship somewhere regardless of what training track I take. I love boots, I have a strong desire to learn, am very dedicated and have a great attention to detail. But I know it will probably be years before I could make a living solely from bootmaking.

(Message edited by MW73 on December 03, 2009)

[admin]

This isn't a heated discussion...if you want 'heated,' mention the word 'celastic.

I think the problem is a misunderstanding of what a "discussion" really is.

In the mind and intent of admin, any subject is fair game as long as it is broached and discussed in a mature and objective manner.

There have been any number of people who have expressed their opinion about subjects--techniques and materials--that are not part of the Traditional lexicon. No harm no foul.

The key is to be willing to provide a rationale for use and preference...and one that goes beyond "my teacher did it that way, so it's good enough for me." Such statements are conversation stoppers...and I suspect they are intended that way.

But the Crispin Colloquy is about conversation and discussion among colleagues--that's what "Colloquy" means. It is not now, never has been, and never was intended to be a p***ing contest. And it is not ever gonna become one.

Will you get questions, feedback and even argument if you cannot provide a rationale that makes sense? Yes, probably so. Again, that's what conversation is about.

But mature, objective disagreement doesn't have to turn into flame wars or denunciations of other people's character, competence, or credibility. It doesn't have to be disagreeable. All it takes to avoid "heated discussions" is to respect the other person and where they are coming from.

Now having said all that, please understand that admin is addressing an issue and what is apparently a common misconception. Admin is not addressing any particular individual nor taking any individual to task. Please understand that. And understand that no offense is intended.

Emmett

[janne_melkersson]

DW,
I believe that Marcel have answered you question about who is a master "Master is someone who completed a master exam and get a certification about it"

But I know there are many who have masters competence without the diploma and that is something to strive for even though you can not for some reason get the diploma..

In Sweden the old Guild system come to an end 1846 and the title master lost it's juridical meaning. From the year 1941 it is still possible to receive a masters diploma. In fact it was regulated by the law 1995. But somehow it has lost it's attraction.

Marcel,
That said it still can be very attractive in other countries and I am glad to know you got your diploma, congrats!

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on December 03, 2009)