Equipment Question

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jake
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Re: Equipment Question

#26 Post by jake » Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:14 pm

Ed,

You're Welcome Partner! Any time. D.W. and myself have some pics on the forum of our pre-holing technique too. Try a search!

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#27 Post by erickgeer » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:39 am

Does anyone know about the FROBANA BARMEN portable sole stitcher? I've heard of them, but I never hear about them. There is one on E-bay I'm looking at - it seems like a good alternative to a big curved needle stitcher.

Thanks,

Erick

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Re: Equipment Question

#28 Post by das » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:36 pm

Erick,

I have a Frobana, as does Carl Lichte. They are like Swiss clocks--two revolutions of the flywheel to one stitch. A joy to watch operate. Having said that, spare parts are the biggest problem. Goetz used to carry the needles for these, but I never found any parts suppliers for other bits. So, I just restored mine as best I could with help from my dad (watchmaker) and the local machine shop. When it runs, it runs great. When it don't--which is most of the time--it just don't :&#62Image

I wouldn't bank on it as your primary stitcher, just a neat older one, a back-up, or "curiosity".

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#29 Post by erickgeer » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:15 am

Is the Frobana the only hand-cranked sole stitcher out there?
My interest is in something that doesn't take up so much space. The studio I am in at this time probably would not support the weight of a landis type machine - I was a little iffy on having that sutton 296a here. As much as I love old machines, if I can't use it for primary, I can't put the money into it.


Erick

tomo

Re: Equipment Question

#30 Post by tomo » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:47 pm

Erick,
Some years ago I had a Gritzner(sp) and that was very small, and I think that was a hand crank machine?? It was about as big as the monitor screen (15 inch) in front of me and stood on a pedestal which bought it up to about chest height. I think from memory there was a bits and pieces draw under the head. I think it was maroon in colour.
More power to y'awl.
T.

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Re: Equipment Question

#31 Post by das » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:55 am

Erick,

Yes, that's the machine. As far using it as a "primary"--if it's in top notch shape it should work like a dream. The problem is, as I said before, is getting spare parts. From the eBay description it's hard to say, as the seller was not actually using the machine, nor knew how well it was going before it went for auction. It's going to be a gamble.

If you're looking for a small hand-operated outsole stitcher, the other one that comes to mind is the Junker & Ruh model 88(?), I think it's 88 anyway. I have one in my shop, and it works fine--very few moving parts. It's half the size of a Frobana, and works on a pull/push lever like a Tippman "Boss". These are ancient too, pre WWI in most cases. But the good news is, Pedersen in Denmark was making a copy of this machine in the 1980s (maybe still?), and the parts interchange with the Junker. I got mine in England 'round '83 for $50, where they were the rage for sandal makers in the 60s and 70s. It's only maybe 15 lbs., and I brought mine home bundled in dirty clothes in a suitcase. I bought another one to use as a parts machine. Goetz sells the needles, thread, and a few small parts.

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Re: Equipment Question

#32 Post by cmw » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:06 am

I talked to the man responsible for my training at the new job today. He said that as far as he knows, it is still possible to find the smaller version of an outsole stitcher in production here in DK. He was not sure because we do it all by hand. If you wish to use some time on it there is a supplier here that might know where to find the machine and the parts.

http://www.sl-online.dk/default.asp

The man that has this company does a lot of business with my boss and seems to carry quite a lot of different thing.

Hope this helps
CW

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#33 Post by erickgeer » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:49 am

I would very much like to find either the Junker and Ruh, or the Pederson machine - are they curved needle machines? I do not know when I would buy, but if I can get concrete information as to how to aquire one, it would be appreciated. I can be e-mailled at: riotgeer@ameritech.net

Thanks

Erick

das
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Re: Equipment Question

#34 Post by das » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:32 am

Erick,

Just checked. The Junker & Ruh is marked model number "SD-28". Yes, both use a curved needle--the Frobana is more curved however. The Frobana has a feed-dog/channel-cutter that feeds the shoe and cuts a channel. BTW, the old electrical cord the eBay one powers the bobbin heater, to keep the wax soft. Mine runs well on Solari's non-heating stitching wax, just be sure there are rubber wax strippers installed the sockets (Landis ones trimmed down will fit), else you'll get wax all over the thing.. The Junker & Ruh is strictly needle-feed--the needle jumps over and pulls the shoe through, and it has a wax pot for liquid wax (Solari's works fine). Both stitch with the shoe right-side up, that is piercing down from the welt as in hand-stitching. This is the reverse of the big, powered, curved needle sole stitchers like the Landis, Goodyear, etc., in which the shoe is presented to the machine sole up, welt down.

The Pedersen knock-off of the Junker & Ruh I remember seeing in the Goetz catalogue back in the 1980s was selling then for around $4,000 USD! Lord knows what they'd go for new today. I'd hunt up a used one if I were you, in the $50-$100 category.

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#35 Post by erickgeer » Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:38 am

I think I found a picture of the junker and ruh sd-28, it really small though.
2831.jpg
2831.jpg (10.56 KiB) Viewed 2578 times


Is this the right machine?

Erick

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Re: Equipment Question

#36 Post by das » Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:43 am

Erick,

That's the one. Looks in good shape. Don't let the size fool you, for my money it is more reliable than the Frobana, and has a deeper throat too. I've stitched pancake holsters as well as knife sheaths on mine.

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#37 Post by erickgeer » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:00 am

I actually meant the photo is small, I can't see any detail.
That photo came from a web-page that seems to be just someone in Europe who restores machines as a hobby.

If you or anyone else knows where to start looking, I would love the help. I've done a bunch of searches, and I've only found the one reference, nothing for sale. Are they known by any other name? A pedersen search was even less sucessful.

Erick

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#38 Post by erickgeer » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:49 pm

So, I found a guy in the Toronto area, that refurbishes both the Junker and Ruh, and Frobana machines. Acording to him, the Frobana is the second choice in Holland (? memory going), and parts are still available. He sent me pictures of a Pedersen machine, here is a close up of the needle:
2973.jpg
2973.jpg (214.28 KiB) Viewed 2578 times


I really like the idea of a simple and levered machine - but - is that gentle curve going to cut it for outsole stitching on an enclosed shoe? I am basically wanting to bottom like a western boot, I'll post a picture of an experimental boot in the gallery.

Al,
He has given me a quote for either the Frobana or the Junker and Ruh, would you be able to give me an idea what is a good price for these, outside of the forum?

I also have a question about last design, which I'll post elsewhere.

Thanks,

Erick

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Re: Equipment Question

#39 Post by das » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:42 am

Erick,

You can send me PM at:

dsaguto@cwf.org

I'll tell you what I can. Heck I might even like to get some Frobana parts for mine from the same guy :D

Joseph Zifer

Re: Equipment Question

#40 Post by Joseph Zifer » Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:00 pm

I need a Maintenance book for a Landis Model2 Outsole stitcher. My email address is jzifer1@verizon.net. Joe

uncle_bob

Re: Equipment Question

#41 Post by uncle_bob » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:42 pm

Joseph, or anyone that needs a copy,
I've got some laying around, if I'm not mistaken your looking for a manual to a Number 12, if you could identify the Model, be it an Aristocrat L, an LB, or K or other. It's an instruction book and parts catalog, the standard issue with the unit, "operators manual" if you will. The only maintenance book "complete overhaul" that I'm aware if is the one by the Department of the Navy, for the older F and G units. I could probably get you a photocopy of it if your tackling a rebuild! Or if you just need a general guide for making the standard operational adjustments that are standard on most of the units, there's a section in the Shoe Repairing book, or a handout from one of the new machine companies that I've got extra photocopys of.
Regards,
Bob

zoroff

Re: Equipment Question

#42 Post by zoroff » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:04 am

Hi all.

I am a complete newbie in this kind of hardcore leather sewing equipment, but...

A friend of my neighbour's grabbed some stuff from an old shoemaker who closed business,
to stop the things from getting scrapped. one of the things is a Rapid-E.
Do I want it? I'm not quite sure what I can do with it, I mean does it basically sew ordinary straight stitches in thick leather?
that Curved Needle Outsole Stitcher stuff sounds so 'special equipmentish'.

Also, it has been in storage, dismantled and not tested for a few years, what might it be worth?

I need to make a decision pretty soon if I am going to get it.

/ New and confused, Jani Sahamies

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Re: Equipment Question

#43 Post by dw » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:06 am

Jani,

First, welcome to the CC.

Second, a Rapid E is a decent stitcher. If you've got the desire to make shoes or boots...or even repair shoes and boots....it is a good piece of equipment to pick up. But like all of this, it *is* "hardcore." It requires a commitment both in terms of money, space, and dedication. If you're not really interested in shoemaking, the Rapid E is near worthless to you--it's not a good substitute for a harness machine, and is, as you say, pretty specialized and limited in its application.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

guy_shannon

Re: Equipment Question

#44 Post by guy_shannon » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:35 pm

Hello Jani.

My name is Guy Shannon and I use a Rapid E. The Rapid E in decent running order will fetch between $3500. to $7500. Candian. I'm not sure what it will get in the States.

When I was working at Alberta Boot in Calgary they were using 2 Rapid E's for manufacturing cowboy boots.

I am sure if you contact a supplier where you are they will be able to help you with either putting it back together or selling it.

Guy

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#45 Post by erickgeer » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:27 pm

Anyone... Al?

I am still trying to figure out which machine would be best for sewing a stitch-down shoe. I've had my eye on a Junker & Ruh for a while, but I'm not sure it's what I need (needs dictate more than wants these days).
Here are the options I'm considering:

Junker and ruh
Frobana
American Straight needle
MacKay Stitcher (not sure about that one)

I have a Landis K - could it be set-up for it?

Some choices would be more versitle (MacKay), but if it doesn't do what I *need* it to, versitility doesn't do me any good at the moment.

Any help would be appreciated,

Erick

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Re: Equipment Question

#46 Post by dw » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:42 pm

Erick,

As I'm sure you know I don't specialize in stitch-downs...but I have repaired them somewhere in the dimly remembered past.

I just don't see what is preventing you using a Curved needle to do stitch-downs. Provided you use a mid-sole and provided you cement the glue to the midsole, it's simply a question of trimming the midsole, setting the guide to stitch deep and running a line of stitching around the shoe. then set the guide to stitch not so deep, add your outsole and stitch it on. Two lines...like most stitch downs I've ever seen...and the outsole stitch buried in a channel in the sole. With the Straight-needle, or any other machine which stitches with the operator viewing the work from the top, your outsole stitching will be proud of the sole and probably bordering on unsightly.

I'm sure (I hope) someone with greater experience or a more refined approach will correct me...and I welcome it...but it's one approach, at least, if you don't get any other advice.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#47 Post by erickgeer » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:23 pm

DW,
I've experimented, but nothing too thorough, on the Curved needle. I removed the guide to get as much depth as posible, but it drops the stitch just shy of the "flange". If there is another adjustment I need to do, I'd welcome it.

Thanks,

Erick

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Re: Equipment Question

#48 Post by dw » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:51 am

Erick,

I'm not sure what you are referring to with the word "flange." But if you can't get the first line of stitching in deep enough it may be that you are trying to leave too much "welt". You could trim everything up just a bit--after you glue your vamp to the midsole, just trim it a bit closer. [BTW, in my previous post I said "provided you cement the glue to the midsole"...I meant to say "provided you cement the vamp to the midsole"]

Again, I'm no expert, but I seriously doubt that contemporary stitch-downs...such as Whites (these are logging boots, etc)...use anything but a curved needle.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

erickgeer

Re: Equipment Question

#49 Post by erickgeer » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:10 am

I mean the feather. I'll do some more experimenting today - it's been a while since I've touched it.

I'm moving over to the Curved Needle topic for my other question.

Erick

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Re: Equipment Question

#50 Post by walrus » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:03 am

Erick
The machine you are looking for is a Stitchdown Thread Lasting Machine-Model-B I would scan the page from the catalog but my scanner isn't working with this computer.I took this shot with my camera if you send me a fax number I will fax the whole page to you. Hope this helps.
3622.jpg


Larry
Walrus Shoe & Leather Co,LLC

(Message edited by Walrus on July 22, 2005)

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