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All,

Some thoughts...some may be reasonable, some may not:

I am not sure where the distortion is in a forme. If we use paper to make our formes, it seems that the most distortion is where the slots are cut. Indeed visualizing the paper being applied, I see the side of the last being nearly flat and the paper conforming to what discrepancies are evident fairly easily. The real problems begin when we try to deviate from that (relatively) flat surface and bend the paper over the dorsal surface of the last; or under the arch, or around the heel.

So...that leads me to wonder if springing the formes in an area that seems to not have much distortion is really addressing the problems of distortion.

When I look at the sprung formes posted above, I see the vamp being cocked upward and an bit of extra substance being incorporated into the distance from the heel seat to the toe. The first...the springing of the vamp...might make it easier to last the forepart but I'm not sure what the second does.

If a pattern (or a drape) lies on the last such that the featherlines are already congruent..."dead on"...then when the shoe is lasted it would seem to me that components that are already in their proper place and alignment, will be pulled askew and out of place.

My biggest reservation is that when patterns are drawn on the last the very distortions that we talk about will affect the symmetry of the finished shoe.

I'm still fiddling with the Adelaide patterns and if I draw them on the last, the facings, when cut off, will have one shape...and generally a mirror image of each other...but the quarters will have another shape that doesn't correspond to the facings. This makes me hesitant because if the quarter pieces are cut to the patterns and the facings are cut to the patterns, the quarters will have to be stretched to fit the facings, which, in turn, will distort the facings....OR the facings will have to be compressed.

Either way, symmetry is destroyed.

I understand that a flat form doesn't reflect that contours of the last. But it seems to me that flat components "sprung" to emulate some minimal aspect of those contours doesn't really address the issue especially when you factor in the lasting process. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any answers. I'm "questing" for one.

Maybe this whole issue would be a good subject for presentation at AGM?

Someone?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Hi DW,
Your'e worries are over if you lay out a "shell" to create patterns, with all the components built into the shell. Then you "split parts" from the shell. The parts will always fit together however you as the pattern maker decide, whatever the shoe you build, with close seams, lap seams, folded edges,lasting allowances..etc...If split from the shell, which derived from your draft, your base.
Lines distort a little when you lay out a 2D pattern to be fitted over a 3D last. First lesson ever is that to make a shoe with a straight tip, you make the line slightly curved, from your vamp score line. These things just started making sense to me after about 10 years of doing it day in and day out. Then it starts to just come naturally.
See Ya,
Tim

Tim,

Thanks for the reassurance but as I mentioned...it hasn't worked for me.

If you make a tape shell and design your components on it then cut those pieces out, flattening them so that you can cut leather from them distorts them such that pieces no longer line up or fit together easily. By easily, I mean without stretching or compressing of some seamlines or parts.

It's not clear to me how to go about compensating for such distortion. The example on the oxford is clear enough but it's not immediately clear that it will apply to all styles. Nor is it clear that stretching a seam line to make it fit isn't just adding more distortion.

I guess I need to see it done.

Will you be coming to AGM this year?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

To my way of thinking, we want to get the upper to be 'undistorted' when it is on the last/lasted. If the two edges don't marry up perfectly when they are 2D/flattened, I think that is because they are distorted by the flattening. If we can manipulate the leather so that, when closed, it is consistent with the sprung lines, I believe that the upper will be 'undistorted' when it is put back into 3D by the lasting process. That seems desirable to me.

So, if I were doing the 'shell' cutting, I would add a consistent stitching margin to the underlying piece of leather and sew to the where the edge of the flattened pattern piece was before the margin was added. Any manipulation you have to do when sewing is, IMO, because the pattern is still basically 2D, not 3D. If somehow you could lay the unsewn pieces on the last before sewing, then sew them together while they were on the last, wouldn't the pieces fit back together pretty much perfectly?

When Terry springs his pattern on the last, he is using the line that you will see 'as is,' and springing the underlying piece. This minimizes the distortion of the line when the upper is lasted. So, for example, if you were to spring the adelaide shield on the last, you would cut the vamp piece first (since it is the overlapping piece whose edge you see in the finished upper), then spring the facing piece. Assuming the vamp piece is symmetrical when the pattern is cut, I would think this would yield a pretty symmetrical finished product. However, YMMV.

Lance

Lance,

This sure seems like a good subject for an AGM presentation. Will you be there this year?

I was think about all this last night and it seems to me that I recall someone--Thornton perhaps, suggesting that the components be placed on the last as they were being assembled. In other words...if I understood correctly...the patterns pieces would be outlined on the last and as the quarters were finished it would be attached to the last such that it was in the same place as the design line indicate. Then the vamp would be cemented/glued to the quarters...in its original position...and the quarters and vamps gently removed from the last intact. Then they would be closed.

Might be worth a trial run anyway.

I guess I just don't have the confidence to design off the last and trust the resulting cut-a-ways. So far, none of them have matched up...but more importantly, as I indicated, some parts would need to be compressed or stretched to match up with other parts. That's almost the definition of distortion in my book...and if I did stretch or compress, I would be the one adding the distortion.

Hey, I'm still working on it....


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Gents...
I think if you saw a set of patterns, a simple one, like a plain Oxford, with all the parts of the shoe, and the shell from which each part was "split"...then all would be clear as day how simple it really is.
Lance...while I was cleaning out my office, I know I pulled a couple pattern bags out of my trash and gave them to you to look over. Inside these bags, (actually these are 10" x 13" envelopes) just they've always been called "bags" were each part ie; toe cap, Qtr, Foxing, tong, counter..etc...and even though I was working from these patterns myself, I still marked them up with my instructions, be it folded edge, eyelet size, stitch and turn, whatever. Well also inside the bag is the shell of that shoe. This shell has everything representing the shoe to be made. It's a blueprint really. You see the draft, the seam allowances, where the markers go, how much lasting allowance I gave it, score lines for uppers and linings. Everything. So when I hand off this job, there better not be anything missing. And when my shoe comes back from sample room, any problems that might arise, can then be fixed on a new shell, made form the first shell. Of course I got away with murder in my own shop. I was doing all the hand cutting, sciving, stitching, lasting blah blah blah. I did take shortcuts, lots of em. But I always cut all my components out before I started. Sometimes I'd have 5 or 6 jobs cut, in shoe boxes, waiting to get stitched. This saves a lot of time, and guess work. All engineered from the beginning. Sounds like a lot of work,and it is, but it's the right way to do it. Especially if your'e in a production environment. If one fit notch is missing, a job gets graded, and dies get ordered, you are in deep trouble man!!
See Ya,
Tim

Once more into the breach....

Okay, so I did basically like DW suggested -- I made a quarter and a vamp piece in a fairly firm 4 oz. leather from my forme, with the quarter a bit long and including a 'sewing margin'. I marked on the quarter where the vamp seam would be when the two pattern pieces are laid flat -- this line is shown on the quarter piece in black.

Here is the quarter piece of leather under the original quarter pattern and the vamp pattern adjacent. This shows how the two lines are entirely parallel, as they should be since they were cut from a single forme which was flat on the cutting surface when the vamp/quarter line was drawn and cut.



Then, I traced a line with a black pen where the vamp met up with the quarter when the two pieces were laid flat.


Then, I placed the quarter in its appropriate location on the last and 'lasted' it into position, then did the same with the vamp piece. Here is the pattern 'lasted.' I traced in red the location of the vamp on the quarter with the pattern lasted. The leather was pretty tight to the wood.





Then, I took the pieces off the last, and compared the quarter piece to the 'sprung' quarter paper pattern I did a few days back. A pretty darn close match, even though the paper effort was pretty 'quick and dirty.' (The original vamp/quarter line is shown on the paper pattern in black; the cut edge is the 'sprung' pattern's edge.)



To me, this shows the value of springing the pattern, whether that is done by cutting directly on the last then flattening, or by springing the two paper pattern pieces on the last after cutting the desired shape of the top piece.

Lance

(Message edited by lancepryor on June 09, 2010)

Lance,

You've really gone the extra mile! I, for one, appreciate it immensely. Thank you.

I have to give this a try. I don't know how it will work with the Adelaide pattern or whether it can be applied as the shoe is actually being assembled but you have convinced me.

Thank you again for the time and energy.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Excellent demonstration. I know nothing of pattern making, but doesn't this address the same issue as over crimping in boot making, i.e. Cruel crimping boards,etc. The leather fits snuggly down on the cone of the last and pulling the toe down puts tension along the top of the vamp as opposed to compression if the toe is low. Compression would tend to cause wrinkles.

All,

Slept on this overnight...and woke up with this question:

Why not adjust the vamp line rather than the quarter line?

which component has more intrinsic distortion?

Chuck,

I do see that to some extent and I wonder if...as we (I) do when making a boot...lasting "seats up" doesn't mitigate some of that?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

Because you draw the vamp line as you want it to look on the shoe. If you adjust it, it no longer looks the same way. Plus, if the springing affects the inside and outside quarters differently, then adjusting the vamp would render the inside and outside asymmetric in appearance, since the vamp line would be different. (To reiterate a previous point, on a derby the vamp is adjusted/sprung, since the quarter line is the edge that you see.) Finally, I'm not entirely sure how you would adjust the vamp line to achieve the same effect? If you simply cut it longer toward the heel and sewed to the original line, I don't think it would actually put any spring in the upper(?).

Of course, you still could adjust the vamp instead, if that is your preference.

Lance

I have a customer that is interested in having me make a shoe of their own design. Well, not really their own design - more a derivative design. It is basically a saddle shoe as shown:



I haven't made a saddle shoe but I think I can figure that part out. I'm wondering about this seam up the middle. It doesn't seem to be a real seam but rather that the leather has been scored from above then pulled together to give this effect.



Can anyone tell me about how this is done?

Rick,

I can see why you think it is only scored from above...and it may be some variation of that...I see an uncut area right where the toe seam meets the vamp shield. That's tricky.

But I think (and I could be wrong) that the leather is cut and given a 45° bevel on the fleshside of each edge. Then a grain-side piercing stitch is made to come out just edge-wise of the bevel and entering edge-wise of the bevel on the other piece.

Tightening the stitch draws the bevel together. Flattening the two pieces along the seam makes the ridged seam. Don't get too far away from full substance with your stitches.

I'll be very interested in other approaches to this technique.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Has anyone made the jockey or coachmans boots from Golding volume 1 pg. 108?

I started laying it out and then it gets to, " at the front of the calf E1 make a 1/4" to the left"

but He doe say how far to draw the line, I am sure your supposed to measure your self or customer but you must have to add some extra, cuz you dont want it skin tight.

anybody have any input on this?

I am trying to make engineer boots w/ a side zipper, Tom Mattimore has givin me alot of help but I would like to be able to draft the patterns so I understand what i'm doing and how to adjust it.

Courtney

Rick,
I get to see lots of hand sewn seams so I may be able to help.
I think the shoe you featured has the seam done in the following way.
You lightly score the surface of the leather with a sharp knife.Your only looking to just cut the surface and if your too heavy handed it will weaken the seam.
You can pre mark your stitches or stitch free hand and depending on how you place your awl the seam will lay in different ways.The desired look is for the cut to be on top of the seam or slightly to the inside.Picture 1 shows this method on a scrap piece of leather.
I suggest you close the apron seam first and then cut and close the toe seam, this is how you get the uncut part that DW mentioned.
Picture 2 shows the same kind of seam but without the cut and picture 3 shows the seam DW talked about .This uses seperate pieces of leather and is better done with heavier leather and is much harder to do.
Hope this sheds some light on your approach to this job.
Mack.

Jim & DW,

Thanks. That's very helpful. I guess it is easy enough for me to try on some scraps too.

I'll keep you posted on my results.

- Rick

Rick,

I may be wrong...it's hard to tell with the photo, but I suspect Mack's last photo is of a technique that Lance used on his split-toes (in the Gallery) some time ago. The "apron" (?) is pierced from the grainside as a tunnel stitch which emerges on the straight-cut edge of the piece. The awl then pierces the fleshside of the quarter and emerges on the grainside.

A little different than what I was describing...and much more difficult and elegant.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW and Rick,
Yes the last photo is the same technique as DW describes.You see it on a lot of Edward Green and G&G shoes, they call it 'skin stitching'.
If done well it does look very good.The type of leather you choose will help your result.With this stitch the toe is usually seamed blind.
My first picture shows a similar seam to your original shoe, it will stand out more if done on heavier leather than I used.
Mack

DW or Jim,

Something like this?

More like this, I suspect..



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Rick,
DW's diagram is a good explanation of how it is done.Its pretty tricky to do well, but have a go
nothing ventured as they say.The stiffer hog bristles may make it easier.
Mack

Could anyone recommend a pattern making book other than Frank and Koleff books?

My teacher taught me how to make a pattern for "wholecut" using the forme, but I forgot how to do it. Any help? I just remember need to hold a point, then rotate the forme, then hold another point, and rotate the forme again till the vamp to be straight.
Sorry for my poor english. I really don't know how to say it better in english, just try my best to express myself.

Alexander

(Message edited by fishball on September 01, 2010)

Alex,

I would like to see a book that included a pattern for whole cuts. I don't think it exists. I am somewhat familiar with most of the literature out there but I have never run across a pattern book that covered whole cuts, or adelaides or chelseas or split toes, etc....

A lot of us on this side of the pond use a crimping board to shape the vamps (quarters, etc.) for whole cuts. It just seems a lot more predictable and over-all easy.

You can easily derive a crimp board from the mean forme. I might spring the toe a little on the board, however, simply because the leather will relax a little once it comes off the board.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Alexander

If you have a look at the springing in my book, it uses the method that you have described. You will need to do pretty much the same as the example I used for the front of the boot.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Thanks DW & Tim.

Sorry, Tim, I don't have your book.

Alexander

What has worked for me is using franks method(Patrick book)I find B-X divide in thirds for V. Set the form on the fold of piece of pattern paper from A-B. I put a 3 oz shoe tack (I do this on a cutting board) at V and trace the vamp from A to past X. I then rotate the form until B-I is on the edge of the paper fold and trace the rest of the shoe.
Two things to keep in mind. Depending on the angle of the last cone the point v you rotate on may rise closer to b On some lasts with a high cone and a high heel ( 1 inch+) I have rotated on B.
The second point is I have found that this tends to elongate the top line and you need to shorten it at the heel curve.

Also I find that adding the seam allowance after springing helps. This has worked for me other opinions may vary.
Tom

Alexander

Sorry mate, I thought you did.

Tim

Tom,

Thanks. I think my teacher taught me something like that, I still have to digest what you said.
If some one can so me pics, then it will be more easy to understand.

Tim,

That is alright, I bought the Koleff's book from you, IIRC. May be you just mix it up.

Alexander

I will try to take some pictures this weekend.
Tom

Thanks a lot, Tom!
Looking forward to your pics.

Alexander

I know I originally posted the Jodhpur standard that was given to me by another member of the forum but,
Now that I am really thinking of making some I see that it is pretty blurry.
Would anyone be willing to either repost or email me a clearer scan?
Now that we know its in the Patrick pattern cutting book.

Thanks if anyone can help.
Courtney

Courtney:

Done.

Lance

Thank you.

Courtney

For you shoemakers out there, I am curious what you have settled on for the height of your quarter pattern (relative to the feather line) for the inside, outside, and back of your shoes?

Thanks,
Lance

Lance,

Well, I don't know that I am qualified to answer this but I am using 1/5 SLL for the medial top line height, (1/5 SLL) plus 5mm for back height, and (1/5 SLL)minus 5mm for lateral topline height.

I arrived at this after making FM adjustments for several customers.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on September 13, 2010)

Lance,

If you refer to the top line of the quarters, I place this according to the ankle height. Many people have low ankle bones on the lateral side. There's nothing worse than having the top line cut into your ankle. Usually around 5.5cm.

The medial side usually can be higher by as much as a cm.

The back of the heel I usually put at 7cm, with some adjustment for very small or very large feet.

- Rick

Lance,

Not fair! You haven't told us how you do it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:


I'm still trying to figure that out!

I think for some of my shoes, I've made the quarters too high, so that is why I'm revisiting the topic.

I think Terry uses 1 3/4" for outside quarter height, 2 1/4" for inside, and 2 1/2" for back height, but I may be mistaken, as I have some other notes that seemed to indicate something different.

I need to find my Sharpe, but I've misplaced that.

Lance

Lance,

See, I don't understand that. I'm not doubting Terry but unless proportions such as those are indexed to the size of the last (and foot) then they are bound to be too high on some shoes and too low on others.

I used Sharpe...and Patrick and Golding too if I recall correctly...to establish the formulae I gave above. In fact I used them nearly unaltered from Sharpe except I added one for doing the lateral topline, as well.

The real problem that no one seems to address...and I've had to fudge together a work-around for...is Standard Last Length. Frank gives a small table in the latest pattern book but it's UK sizes. It's hard enough to convert to US sizes but it really gets complicated if the lasts you're using are not sized to a (universally agreed upon) US Standard. Or if you're using an extended toe last.

Without a reliable SLL all the rest begins to fall apart.

I suppose if you're trained to make patterns directly off the last, it would be a lot easier. But I'm groping my way in the dark on that score and need something like Frank's pattern book...at least for the time being.

Are you gonna be at Delavan?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

I agree with your reasoning and logic. On the other hand, if a single size is 1/3 inch, and the formula for the quarters and back is essentially 1/5 of the last length [with a standard variance therefrom], then we're talking about a change of only 1/15 inch per size, or less than 2 mm per size. Terry may increase these measures by 1/8" for every 2 sizes, though I'm not sure about that.

Terry also does all of his work directly off the last with a paper forme, and so I'm sure he also eyeballs his marks to make sure they look good to him. For example, for someone with a very padded outside heel, perhaps he would add a bit to the outside quarter to bring up the quarter a bit on the last, since the last would have a longer circumference than someone with a bony/non-fleshy heel. A standardized approach wouldn't do this, since the SLL wouldn't change between these 2 types of feet.

In terms of 'SLL', I would think perhaps you could take the foot length and add 2 sizes (2/3 inch), since I believe the standard last would be 2 sizes over the foot length. Alternatively, I think if you add a 1/2 size to the UK size you will arrive at pretty close to the US size, ie. a UK 8E is about a US 8.5D. Technically, this might be off by say 1/6th of a size (perhaps a UK 8E would equate to a US '8 1/3D'), but any resulting error in quarter/back height would be trivial in terms of quarter height -- less than 1mm by my estimation. At the end of the day, these are aesthetic judgments, so there is no absolutely right or wrong answer. That is part of what motivated my initial inquiry -- i.e. curiosity about what others have found to work best.

Yes, I plan to be in Delavan; haven't booked things yet, but will do so soon. When do you plan to arrive and depart? I might go a few hours earlier if you'll be around on Friday afternoon, and we could arrange a rendezvous.

Lance

Lance,

Yes, I see your point regarding the minimal differences. My next question is "is it easier to have a formula you can rely upon, or a set of arbitrary(?) measurements that you fudge with every shoe?" [By arbitrary I just mean not indexed to size but based entirely on observation--something like my "passline."]

I suspect that when you get good at this, some fudging goes on, or ought to, no matter how you approach it.

On the other hand, from talking to lastmakers, I have come away convinced that SLL is not really a standard last length even in a particular size. I've been told that an 8E is necessarily longer than an 8A.

And to make matters worse, especially in American lastmaking, lasts don't grade geometrically--there is a greater difference in those two full sizes for small lasts than for large lasts. We talk about 1/3 of an inch or "one barleycorn" but that's mostly just a rough approximation of the reality. The difference between the length of a size 11 and a size 12 will be closer to 3/8in., scaling down through the range such that the difference between a size 5 and a size 6 will be less than 1/3in..

We intend to be in Delevan Friday afternoon through Monday morning. Because of the dog, we are staying at the Super 8(?) rather than the Comfort Suites. But I suspect registration will be at the Suites and we'll show up there shortly after we get in.

Looking forward to it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I am following the mean forme construction via taped last from Pattern Cutting. The picture below shows that SLL for Vamp Point (Counter Point is OK i think) is quite a bit off, when doing the first measure before removing the tape. Vamp point comes to my fingernail, which is well forward of the cone.

I then checked the VP, CP and Back Height measurements for a Derby pattern (adjusted for a size 10 English, since the book gives measurements for a size 8) and things line up proportionally.

Mean Forme:
- English 10 (USA 10.5) is 296.3mm
- VP = 3/4 of SLL = 222.2mm (way too far forward in picture)
- CP = 1/5 of SLL = 59.3mm (actually OK, when you add 10mm more for final Back Height)

Derby
VP = 206mm (size 8 = 195mm*1.06 to get size 10) as stated in the book. I didn't get a pic of this measure, but it's right at the front of the cone where it should be if following the books rules.

I noticed that Tim's book states VP for the mean forme as 70%, which would be 207mm, which seems like a more accurate visual proportion of Vamp Point being at the front end of the cone.

Is there an error I made somewhere? Style, and thus, guidelines, changing over time? Non-standardized USA lasts (I am using Jones & Vining), as mentioned in a post above?




(Message edited by producthaus on September 29, 2010)

Pattern Cutting doesn't mention to what a Balmoral vamp line is referenced to when constructing. Is it parallel to the floor? If drawn straight on the flat pattern will it deform when lasted - if so, are there any tricks for ensuring s straight line?

I wanted to post this here instead of de-railing lance's thread in lasting...

I don't have access to a zig-zag machine to sew up medial and lateral patterns for draping. What are some other elegant solutions? Would adding a seam allowance and sewing a chain stitch affect the draping?

I was talking to Janne about a particular stitch that, when sewing two pieces together grain-to-grain, looks like this on the inside when flattened "| | | | | | |". Janne instructed to make one stitch, then remove the leather and maker another stitch; rinse and repeat. Does anyone have a picture of this, as I am just not following.

Nick,

While you don't really need one, you can sew up medial and lateral patterns using a "patcher." Most of them come with a device or you can rig one to do a "jump stitch." You simply put the pieces grainside to grainside aligning the edges and "jumpstitch" over the edges.

When flattened, the drape will have "X X X X's" on one side and "| | | |'s" on the other.

Lots of good applications for this technique.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 10, 2010)

DWFII,

This is a separate machine, or something I can do with my post-bed machine?

Like I said, I am blanking on this technique / failing with tests, a picture would be great.

Thanks for the quick response.

Nick:

I just add a seam allowance and sew the two pieces along the seams (vamp and back) with my post machine. Assuming the seam is sewn accurately, it should still give you a good feel for your draft, although I do this to make fitters, rather than to test my draft.

Lance

Nick

Just looking at you question about VP above, you should be looking at making US sizes 1 size up from UK sizes, not .5 of a size, that may help you.

For the stitching question, I have done a sort of zig zag by loosening the top tension a lot, not adding a stitching allowance, and then close seaming close to the edge. When finished, pull the two pieces apart lightly and then lay them flat with the two edges butted together. It's not very strong though.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Nick,
you can do this with the postmachine or a flatbed. One stitch through the tops, lift the presser foot remove the tops and next stitch down in the shuttle lift the presser foot put back the tops and so on.

It is not as complicated as it may look but it takes some time though. But I can assure you it is fast compare to doing it by hand. I am using this seam on shoes and boots where a backstrap will be sewed on because it creates a flat seam if done right.


Janne

If you got a stapler with a long throat, you can staple the thing together. If you close seam like Lance does, be sure to rub the seam out nice and flat. Don't use leather if you can help it. Use something like canvas, with no stretch at all.
We even put fit notches into the pattern, so's the stitcher makes an excellent butt seam. Like all the pattern work we do, we hand the project off, and hopefully don't hear another thing until the finished model is ready to last. Then I just go watch the shoe get lasted. The allowances better be right where I layed them out to be. So if you see you have too much material over the toe, or it's hitting hard at the back, or whatever, you just know where you are in reference to the draft. And without an excellent draft, and how your pattern is built aroud that base,there is no way to know if you are right on the money. I understand real well the difference between custom made, and engineering shoes for the masses...I got away with murder when I did it all myself. But last draft is one shortcut I can not take, and wouldn't know how to make a shoe without one. Get a zig zag machine...endless good uses. Lance, you shoulda grabbed mine while I was giving stuff away.
Have Fun,
Tim

Janne,

Yeah, that's what I do too...I was at a loss to explain how to do it, though. It's essentially the same thing as a "jump stitch" as done on the patcher but easier to close curved edges.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
I glad to know my posting maked sence, I wasn't sure about that.

Janne

I was wondering if someone could post a picture or elude to the making of a whole-cut pattern. I am looking at an oxford pattern I made (where the faces cross the crease-line) and I don't understand how a whole-cut makes room for facings and folding allowances.

Nick,

It can be done as a flat vamp pattern but I crimp the vamps/shoe.

Either way I think it would be difficult if not impossible to fold the facings. You're pretty much stuck with bead.

What I did for my first pair...which not only turned out successful but I'm still wearing...is layout the "standard" and make a crimping board the same size and shape. Well, I take that back--I made the board somewhat bigger but the "centerline" was the same. No, I lie...I actually made the angle between the facings/instep and the vamp on the board a little smaller than the standard was(decreasing the number of degrees between the vamp and the facing lines). The idea is to have a bit more "spring" in the vamp/instep so that after the blockers come off the board and begin to relax, the angle can slip a little and still be the same as on the standard.

Then make a pattern for the "blocker"... a little like a big "U". Don't cut for the facings. Make the pattern bigger than the standard.

Crimp.

When the blocker is dry and off the board, fold it along the center fold and mark a centerline.

Add seam allowances and the standard/now pattern free and use it a a cutting pattern. Align the pattern on the blocker with the centerline. Cut each side separately. The facing edge(s? are cut free last thing.

Close and line.

Just one way of doing it but so easy I generally line all oxfords with a whole cut lining.

Hope that helps.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thanks DW.

As mentioned in the Lasting forum, I had trouble with the heel, in part because I had the lining seam and upper seam right on top of each other. In the shoe below, you can see a bulge at the heel in the back where the seams are bunching up...how would I make a pattern that moves the lining seam to the side?

As drawn below, there is now an excess of material at the counter point of heel, so not sure how to deal with this issue?

Nick,
I use the same pattern for the lining as for the upper on one piece shoes with one change. I add about 1" on the out side and take away the same amount on the inside. Doing this the seam will not end up on top of each other.

Nick

Mark your lining as usual, in 2mm at the top, and rule a line straight from there to about half way down to a mark placed in 5mm from the upper, so you can start to fit a stiffener in. Rule a straight line between these two marks,this is your fold line.

Now draw in a curve from the lower mark to a point 7mm in from the bottom of the upper. Add a 2mm allowance starting from the bottom and tapering to nothing at the top of the vee, don't make the seam allowance go all the way to the top or you will have a lump.

When you have cut out your lining, fold the two open edges of the vee together and sew from the bottom to the top of the vee. Rub the seam down and you should be right.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Thanks, Janne. I think this new image is the correct way to pivot the lines, with +1" on the outside and -1" on the inside. It was a little misleading to show the pattern as a regular quarter, when, as you mention, it will look the same as the whoe cut upper.



Tim - thanks, I will try this 'vee' technique on the next pair of oxford or derby.

Nick,

I'm not sure I understand entirely what you're wanting, but if you simply want to move the seam from center back to the, say, medial, side, I don't believe either of those patterns will work--not for lining nor for quarters.

The most important thing is that the topline be continued with no break and no additional material being added. On the last pair of shoes I posted in the Gallery, I used a side seam for the quarters. One of a number of pair I have done like that.

Fundamentally, the pattern has to be designed such that the line from the topline towards the featherline at the back of the heel, is straight...not curve the way the last and the formes are. That straightline then becomes a fold line and the wrap-around part of the medial side is designed as an addition to the lateral pattern.

Does that make sense?

If it is the lining the same concepts apply but of course you must design to make enough room for a heel stiffener. Making room is ordinarily done on the standard by making the curve at the back of the heel on the quarter pattern stand away from the curve on the form and the liner is done such that the curve is inside the forme curve.

If you replace these curves with a straight line, again you must respect both the length and the angle of the topline first and foremost.

Sure it will be harder to last the quarter or the liner around the heel--you'll have excess that you wouldn't have with a centered seam that curves to match the last. But if you keep all that excess down by the insole and featherline it is easy to last out.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Nick,

If you followed the above let me add one other tip--if you feel like you just have to have a fitted heel/counter...either for the liner or for the upper...you can create a bit of a curve at the bottom by altering the pattern along these lines:

oops...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on December 21, 2010)

Try again...



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Gotcha, that is what Tim was also describing, right?

Here is a better picture for a whole cut lining, with +/- 1" as Janne described. Is this the correct fold line?

Nick

Yes, the image DW put there is exactly what I meant.

I am not sure about the whole cut lining pattern, the seams are straight and the back of your last isn't. It would be better to use a counter lining like DW's, overlapping the lining for the front of the shoe. 1" is more overlap than I would use, 10mm is enough. And skive the lining where it overlaps/underlays.

Tim

Nick,

There are several other way to solve the back seam bulge problem as well...

A moist, reasonably thick, veg-tan heel counter will allow you to hammer the seam so it sinks into the thickness of the counter. Make sure your seam has been trimmed as close as possible and then you can soften the jutting raw edges by scraping with a knife.

You can eliminate the seam all together using a backstrap approach (left) and/or minimize the seam with a larger back foxing (right).

In the middle example, the bulge is eliminated by skiving the ends before sewing, then folding back the edges, adding reinforcing tape on the inside and sewing up either side. There is a name for this kind of seam but I don't remember it off hand.

Rick,

I like the middle method, I will try this. Does this picture look about right? Red lines are stitching.

EDIT: The tape should be between the lining and upper, sorry.



(Message edited by producthaus on December 21, 2010)

Nick,

Close. Do the outer and the lining separately. Or just do the outer. The lining bulk is usually much less.

Nick,

I happen to have a series of photos that show this pretty well..









and a bonus,,, off centered liner heel.

I am having a hard time figuring out how to make patterns for a vamp with an apron.

In the past I've measured up the side of the wall of the last following the wall exactly.

This works but makes a very asymmetrical pattern.

Jan-Erick Melkersson posted some shoes in pattern making 825-850 that show a pretty symmetrical plug but you can see the outside of the shoe on the lateral side does not follow that shape.

I have seen this on alot of shoes but dont know how to do it.

Do you just ignore the shape of the last on concentrate on making a symmetrical apron?

I know Rick Roman made those kind of shoes before but couldnt find a pic.

I have my lasts taped up right now but dont want to do this wrong.

I need to make these pretty quick for a wedding.

Any help so much appreciated!

Courtney

Just draw your pattern on the last and when you are happy with it cut it out. You may need to shorten the sides and toe of the plug by 2mm so it doesn't stretch out over the edge of the wall during lasting.

You can make it any shape you want really. Away from the toe you probably don't need to follow the shape of the last if you don't want to.

Tim

Courtney:

When I did my apron derby, I did a symmetrical plug by using a folded sheet of paper and cutting through the two sheets, then transferred the unfolded shape to the taped last when I was happy with how I thought it would look. I then cut the pieces off the last after I transferred/traced the plug's shape.

Don't forget to add a bit of sewing margin to the apron and the vamp (depending on how you're going to sew them together).

My shoes are in the gallery archive #426 - 450.

Lance

Thanks so much Tim and Lance!

So, when you do this kind of stuff, I guess cutting the pattern pieces directly from the last is more common than drafting them on a standard?

Lance, did you pretty much just ignore the outside of the shoe?

I would still love to hear anyone else's input.

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney:

I generally draft off of the formes (though not a standard, I keep and use the inside and outside formes separate), rather than right on the taped last, since once I have a forme I can re-use it, whereas taping the last is a bit of a pain.

However, in this case I wanted to make sure the pattern worked, and I hadn't previously done a shoe with an apron, so I did the pattern on the taped last. I worked on modifying the symmetrical vamp plug til I was happy with how it looked when laid on the last, then took things from there. I guess I did 'ignore' the outside of the shoe, except that it did figure into my assessment of how the modeled apron and resulting vamp would look. Also, remember that the apron needs to end at the bottom of the facings, and most lasts will not be so symmetrical that the inside and outside of the shoe where the facings start will be symmetrical, so somehow marrying a vamp plug that keeps the outside consistent while also meeting the bottom of the facings seems challenging. (hope that makes sense).

Finally, it was my thinking the standard has a straight center line down the front, and thus incorporates some excess material above the hollow of the last. When you last this excess material, where does it go? To the sides, which, it seemed to me, would result in the apron/vamp seam moving further to the sides than I had designed. I'm sure one could accommodate this in the pattern making, but I didn't want to have to do so.

Lance

Courtney,

My suggestion is to tape the last and draw the pieces onto it. Depending on your last the apron may need to be asymmetrical to look right, and sometimes it will need to be asymmetrical in order to appear symmetrical. Take your inside and outside formes and create a mean forme with different lines for the pieces of the inside and outside of the upper.

Then make a test upper and pull it over the last and make any adjustments. I make a test shoe for clients to try on before I work on the finished shoes and use this as an opportunity to test the pattern, with new or unusual designs I often cut an upper (from cheap leather) just to pull over and check my pattern.

Lance, have you seen the tutorial that Janne posted about how to take a forme from the last, it works great and because it's made from scrap leather it takes into account the extra dimension that an upper has over a paper forme. That said, I have gone back to taping the last, for me I find it is the most reliable way to make precise patterns.

Thanks Jon,

So, after I draw the pieces on the the taped last, cut it down the middle and make a mean forme?

How do I transfer the apron from the mean forme to the final pattern?

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney

Just fold a piece of paper in half and put the cut top edge of each side of the formes in place and transfer the pattern to the folded paper. Make sure the pattern from one side is transferred to the other side of the folded pattern, open it out and smooth out any apparent glitches. Add your allowances or remove material and you should be good to go.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Courtney,

Tim said it right, in the picture below you would place the folded edge in line with the top edge of the vamp and trace the inside and outside lines onto it. This pattern is different then the apron type shoe that you want to make but it illustrates how to make inside and outside patterns from the same forme.

Since you are talking about apron shoes,i like to share with you this invention of shoemaker Teofil Luzenski of Berlin Wisconsin from1914,(Victory to the brave people of Wisconsin).

"The invention contemplates the formation of a seam by overlapping the edge of the vamp by means of the edge of the upper(apron) and stitching through the two thicknesses of the upper and the edge of the vamp therebetween so that the line of meeting of the two pieces of leather is protected by the overlapping edge of the upper(apron)".

The invention/technique was intended as an improvement to Moccasin of 1914, As far as i know all apron shoes are derived form the moccasin.


Nasser

Thanks Tim and Jon,

Would you use tracing paper then?

It looks like if you folded a piece of paper to the straight line of the vamp you would not get the area of the vamp below the quarters?

Jon, I am not sure exactly how you got to the picture you posted,

You taped the last, drew your pattern on the tape, cut the forms, made a mean forme, and then traced the pieces from your formes onto that?

I actually used a piece of slotted paper to get the apron shape off my taped lasts before I read these posts, seems like it will work.

I made some modifications to my lasts before I started working on these patterns and I keep wondering if I could get away with modifying my old patterns. I think its probably a bad idea, but it sure is a hassle starting from scratch every time. someday I'll hopefully get this all dialed in and then I'm gonna be cooking.

I really respect you guys who do this for real, I've been trying to fit myself for about 2 years now and its still not right. Each pair was kind of like a new customer though because each time I found out some new problem I've got.

Courtney

Bristol board. Score it with an awl, using a straight edge and fold along this line.

You are correct in describing how I got to this pattern.

As for modifying patterns, it may seem like a chore to make new ones, but every time you make a new pattern you will learn something and get a little faster, it is time well spent.

Thanks again Jon,

I'm now risking coming off a little slow maybe, but.

How can you trace through bristol board? the only thing I can think of is doing a heavy pencil outline on your pieces and then rubbing the backside of the paper and maybe it will transfer?

Also, I dont see how you can get the full vamp pattern with the folded paper,I guess you could cut it where the vamp meets the facings?

It's hard using words to ask visual questions.

Courtney

Jon,

What I don't understand is why or how you altered the patterns for each side...or even, for a certainty, which side is which.

For instance, what tells you to make the inside curve of the toe cap wider for one side than the other? And how much? And if you do that, won't the inside curves be different?

And why and how much to alter the quarter curve?

Finally, why is it necessary? Can't you control the placement and even the shape of the quarters or the inside curve of the toe cap by how the shoe is lasted?

Like Courtney, I admire your work and wish I had the insights that seem to come so easily to you.

Perhaps a presentation at AGM on the ins and outs of pattern-making?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

It depends on the style and the last. Some lasts are more symmetrical than others, and the same goes for some patterns.

With this pattern and last combination, in order for the lines to appear in the same as well as "right" place on each side it required an adjustment, otherwise the line where the quarters meet the vamp would ride high on the outside or low on the inside (or worse yet, both) the same is true for the toe cap. The higher lines are the inside lines, as for how much, it's all subjective.

This toe cap is an example of a pattern made asymmetrical in order to look symmetrical. I can't see making up this difference during lasting.

I'm hoping Courtney is finding this information transferable to his project. In the next couple of months I have a project to make a lakes and apron type shoe and I'll be relying on some of the information that Janne has posted on the subject.

Thanks for your compliments. If some thing seems to come easy to me, I assure you I work hard to achieve these results, but thanks.

Courtney, cut through the pattern along the lines, leaving uncut spaces so that the pattern will hold together, then use an awl, or fine leaded pencil and transfer through to the pattern paper.

I don't have the writing skills to tell you how to manipulate your pattern where it begins to rise at the base of the tongue except to say you need to lower it a bit and mark it, repeating this process until you've reached the top of the tongue/apron piece. Then make test upper, then repeat the whole thing again, and again and try to learn something every time until you become comfortable with the process.

That's a record, my longest post ever.

thanks again Jon,

the cut lines is the answer I was looking for.

I didnt mean how to spring the tounge down, I just meant if you folded a piece of paper and layed it along the straight edge of the vamp you wouldnt get the wings of the toe cap or the part of the vamp under the quarters unless you cut like a"L" in the paper.

Yes, I'm finding all of this very helpfull. thanks.

Courtney

DW
"What I don't understand is why or how you altered the patterns for each side...or even, for a certainty, which side is which."

I am not sure if I understood your question to Jon or if you already got it answered so if I out in the blue please forgive me. In most cases on bespoke shoes I use the lateral side of the left last when making a pattern (habbit only) even though the medial side is mostly a coupple of millimetre or even longer. But when the inside gets much longer you can not compensate that by lasting techniques only. The upper will not fit right either will the back seam or the facing end up of track. I seldom cpmpesate for the toe cap though but for a lake you will need to copy the medial side too.

Jon,
I am glad to hear my posting about the Derby lake shoe could be helpful. Please ask if there is something you think I could assist with

Janne

DW,
I reread my posting and I saw I was not clear. What I tried to say is that I agree with Jon that somtimes you will need to make the pattern as Jon showed us on his photo. Actually, that is the way to it "by the book" for every pair. However many bespoke makers, including me, have found that minor differences regarding asymmetricality could be compensated by using the lasting pincer. Sometimes this is a bad habbit because the pincer will not fix everything.

The tricky question is the one you asked;

"For instance, what tells you to make the inside curve of the toe cap wider for one side than the other? And how much? And if you do that, won't the inside curves be different?"

I am afraid there's no formula for that, it is one of those "trial and error" things we have to learn. But the proportions on Jons patterns seem to be "right" för a normal bespoke last but in the orthopeadic trade the difference on the medial/lateral side could be way more.

Hopefully this posting where more understandable


Janne

Athan

You can use a glass cutter to transfer lines through from one side to another. If your patterns are complicated then the slotting idea can cause problems I found.

Tim

Tim, I know your response was intended for me, Thanks.

Thats brilliant. I know in your book it says you can use the glass cutter but I didnt really get it.

Hope you werent effected by the floods much, that looked pretty horrible.

Courtney

Sorry Courtney

I wasn't thinking, yes, it was for you. The little wheel on the glass cutter doesn't damage your paper patterns too much and can work through light cardboard too.

Where I live was spared the worst of the flooding, thanks.

Tim

I'd like to try a true moc construction version of a chukka or balmoral, does anyone have any sources of learning - i.e., books, videos etc of this type of pattern? An actual flat pattern would be the best.

The main part that is tricky is the vamp, as I can't really see the underside of it when I view shoes in the store. After that, I can use knowledge from Pattern Cutting as it's the same as the respective boot style.

I had thought one of Koleff's books talked about moc construction, but I am not sure how in-depth or what kind, I am awaiting a response from a seller of this book to see exactly what it's about.

Hi;

I've been following this thread for some time, even going back into the archived conversations because I am interested in how you guys design your shoes. I'm wondering if this You-Tube Video by "skomark1" is helpful to the discussion .... it sure has helped me in trying to understand what you folks are talking about - I still haven't figured out what medial and lateral are, but I'll get there <|;^)

There are 10 videos total in a series on how to make patterns from a last. This link is number 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwBaOQJULtw&feature=related

I am still looking for a source of learning about true-moc patterning. Here is an image I found of the underside of a vamp...perhaps enough detail to draft a pattern while not completely stumbling around in the dark.

http://www.feitdirect.com/blog/2010/05/in-production-hand-sewing-the-moc-mid/

http://www.feitdirect.com/blog/2010/05/in-production-hand-sewing-the-moc-mid/

(Message edited by producthaus on March 16, 2011)

Nick,

Frank Jones revised Pattern Cutting step by step has instructions for making moccasins.

Courtney

I am looking for cap toe and wing tip medallion style perforation patterns. I would appreciate sample patterns for mens dress shoes.

Ruben,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy.

Of course eventually you may want to design your own but several good sources to get idea are;

Handmade Shoes for Men, Lazlo Vass(?) I believe you can buy this book on Amazon.

Also go here

And here

Plenty of shoes and designs to look at.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Hi Ruben,

I'm fond of making these patterns myself, usually based on those I see on various shoes.

I posted one here: http://www.thehcc.org/discus/messages/4/1545.html?1295985054#MT

Given current reasonably obtainable materials...

What material would be best for making PERMANANT TEMPLATES for often used patterns?

I have read Nickle. And I know some here have used formica. But both seem to have good and bad characteristics. The Nickle sheeting would dull the blade quickly but remain true...and the formica can be 'trimmed' out over time, changing the basic lines of the template, but save the blade.

What are you using now for oft used templates?



Shane

Shane,

Zinc sheeting works great. It is soft enough to cut with a clicking knife (if you are determined) without markedly dulling the blade or you can use a jeweler's saw or a coping saw. And yet firm enough to prevent casually "trimming" the edge of the pattern.

Formica works great...it's about the same as the zinc as far as "trimming out" is concerned--that's just something you have to learn: cutting leather without cutting the template. But if you sand formica it releases a toxic gas. The zinc won't do that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Hi Shane,

Jeff Mosby at Grey Ghost Graphics laser cuts plastic of some kind that makes good templates, and of course Heather Kinnick at Texas Custom Dies can make hammer dies or clicker dies for darned near anything.

Art

How does someone obtain a copy of Patrick's Modern Patternmaking and Design?

Thanks in advance!

Jake,

First, my mistake, it's actually Modern Pattern Cutting and Design by H.J. Patrick.

I don't know where you'd find or get a copy. It's out of print and highly regarded. I missed a copy on Ebay last year because I was out of town. The final bid was double what I had thought to pay and I bid high thinking I would surely get it.

All I've got is p-copy...and not a very good one at that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Jake, I think Frank Jones Practical pattern cutting is just a revised edition of that book? You can order that from Walrus I think.

Tim Skyrmes book has instructions for pattern making too.

Courtney

Jake/Courtney,

Though both these are excellent, and I now Frank's is very comprehensive and as to a book dedicated to pattern making a must have, neither have a jodhpur pattern. So if you are looking for that specifically relative to the other posts on this site, the only book I have seen was the one DW mentions above. I am lucky enough to own a copy of the Modern Pattern Cutting, but since my copy was published in the 1960's it is a long ways away from being something I could PDF and post.

Terry

Hi guys,
George Koleff's wonderful book 'Shoe and Boot Design Manual' has Jodphur boot pattern's in it. People that ride horses usually refer to them as jodphur boots. The Aussies call them elastic sised boots and Brits or townies will call them chelsea boots ala the Beatles.

Thanks Everyone! I believe I have enough to go on now.

Much appreciated!

Jake

Yes, as I understand it "Pattern Cutting Step-by-Step patterns for footwear" edited and revised by Frank Jones is the most current version of Patrick's tradition of patternmaking. I use both extensively. Though the books feature a few different patterns, they adhere to the same tradition of pattern making. But I must point out that Frank's book is far easier to follow with very detailed instructions, guidance, and even warnings of common pattern making pitfalls, which were lacking in Patrick's book.
I have several copies of "Pattern Cutting" for use with my classes at F.I.T. and am offering them (new) at an introductory price at this time.
Private email me for more information.
David

I have a scan of the Patrick book. It's hi-res, pdf format. About 10.5 MB when zipped. If anyone is interested, let me know.

David,

You may have some information that I don't have but as I say I've have both of Frank's editions and the Patrick book. I see the similarities, certainly, but I see similarities between Golding and Patrick and Thornton and Patrick...it's all a continuum.

Maybe Frank will weigh in on this and let us know if his Pattern Cutting is a re-write of Patrick.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Jake,

You might want to look aty Koleff's book if you're set on a geometric method. Patrick begins by making a "mean forme" and then adds a little geometry on top of that. But it is not, at heart, a geometric method for generating patterns.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

We'll do....Thanks once again!

Jake

DW, I don't think I have any information you don't. We are in agreement. I was pointing out the similarity in the pattern making tradition presented by Frank Jones and Patrick, and as you say the continuum from earlier books - Thornton, Golding (both those author's work I would likely never have read without your devotion to scan and post here, thanks). My first pattern making was by deciphering of Patrick's book and he expected a basic vocabulary/understanding from the reader. Not an easy task for the newbie. But for a newbie Frank's book is much easier to follow and once the reader gets the basics of copying the last (surface) or deriving a mean forme, more technical trade oriented books become easier to understand. Including geometric methods. Throw in good visualization (maybe a little xray vision)of style lines and assembly order you got the basics for good patternmaking. Even on never before tried patterns.
respectfully,
David

I got my copy of Patrick from www.bookfinder.com maybe 10 years ago.

David,

My apologies...I misunderstood...I thought you were saying that Frank's book was a re-write of Patrick the way that Korn is a re-write of Golding.

I have to agree with you, the first patterning book I really looked at was Patrick...oh, years and years ago...and I decided, right then and there, I needed to stick to bootmaking.

Frank's book really opened my eyes. And then I went back and looked at Golding more closely and Thornton and Patrick. And suddenly it made more sense.

I wish Frank's book contained more standards. I suppose a really good shoemaker doesn't need that kind of hand holding but as you suggest, a person needs something...experience?...as background, so to speak, before you feel comfortable conjuring styles out of mid air. Patrick gave me the jodhpur. I would have thrown away a lot of "trials", otherwise.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

There has been some discussion about the relationship or link between H.J. Patrick’s - Modern Pattern Cutting and Design and the book that carries my name. The original Pattern Cutter’s Handbook started out as a selection of course notes, we used at Accrington and Rossendale College, where I worked from December 1983 until January 1996.

Late in 1989 we started to run two week intensive Pattern Cutting courses which attracted people from all over the UK, as well as overseas. Each course member went home with detailed printed notes for five or six different styles of footwear.

To produce these notes I scoured everything that was available. This included all the usual culprits such as Swaysland, Golding, Plucknett, Thornton and Patrick but there was also other stuff from Satra, BBSI Journal, and the work we had been doing at the College to produce Open Learning modules for the industry nationally. I quickly came to the conclusion that most of the above was written for students of footwear who were attending extensive courses at the twenty plus colleges in the UK teaching shoemaking.

We wanted something that would be easier to grasp for somebody without the support of a college tutor. Having tried hard to identify what exactly needed to be different, I came to the conclusion that pattern cutting was actually all about the shapes of parts of the upper. This, like most useful ideas, was screamingly obvious!

I decided that anything we produced had to have more space for illustrations than for words. Using the rough teaching notes from our pattern specialist - Michael Sharpe, I produced a story board-type of draft notes which included detailed references to the illustrations needed. Then the hard work started to produce really good illustrations, all done by hand because at this stage we had limited computer support. The end result was quite good but was only intended as notes to take away at the end of an intensive two week course.

Have to break off for now, so to be continued ......

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

Episode two

Then we started to get people asking if they could buy a copy of our pattern cutting notes. I was not prepared to do this because the notes were written as an extra for people who had the benefit of attending our course. Without that, the notes would be of limited value.

Then came the obvious idea to expand the notes into a full-blown pattern cutting textbook. This took two years but the result was the Pattern Cutter’s Handbook. This was well before the availability of small print runs and there was no budget to print 1000 copies, even assuming they would sell. So we scraped together the funds to get fifty of the original grey covers printed on glossy card and produced the internal pages on the college photocopier. These were put together using plastic comb binders.

To our delight, these fifty all sold in less than three months and generated enough income to pay for the first 1000 copy printed production. The was reprinted in 1992 and a revised version (mainly with better quality illustrations) was printed in 1994. When the new book was produced in 2006, we increased the number of chapters and in particular added three extra styles of footwear as well as a large number of new and improved illustrations.

Assuming I have not sent everybody to sleep, back to the questions raised above.

Like all things in boot and shoemaking, we all stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. Having said that putting a new book in print should always try to bring a little more to the table. This can be new material but if it is easier to grasp than what went before, I would argue that is an improvement. My aim was to do both. For example, nobody before or since, as far as I know has included details of patterns for Training Shoes or Basketball Boots, as well as lots more illustrations and stuff about how to spring patterns in great detail.

So were either books based on Patrick, well as the most recent pattern book I had to hand, it was influential, mainly because it was, in my opinion, the best pattern cutting book available then.

So, there is nothing on Jodhpur Boots or English Riding Boots. The problem was partly about where to stop - Ski boots, Ballet shoe, Thigh boots, etc. But the truth is decisions have to be made and I thought we had the right priorities at the time.

Suggestions, corrections, and new ideas are always welcomed. They will be filed for when the current print run is soon to be exhausted and modifications can be considered.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

Dw,
No apology necessary. I understand, and I also know I was slightly off subject in skirting the issue of Jodphur boot patterns in Patrick, but not in Jones' book. But wished to stress the relationship of that tradition, and ease of following Frank's book first.
I also look at other pattern making methods, and even though usually the last is primary (a little paraphrasing) there are some quite disparate traditions around. I remember reading more than one of your posts warning against mixing methods, and hope anyone reading this thread heeds that warning.

Frank,
Thanks so much for your detailed description of the evolution of writing/publishing "Pattern Cutting Step-by-Step patterns for footwear". As much as you and I have talked, this narrative reveals even more of your approach than I understood. I favor this book as a modern day guide into a fringe technology (in the 19th c. shoemaking was, in it's day, high industrial technology). Today we shoe/boot enthusiasts strive to recapture, find and maybe even reinvent shoemaking technology using some modern materials (since some old materials are near impossible to find) to preserve and more importantly advance our precious gentle craft in today's modern world.
Your description above is in keeping with these principals.