• archive 1-25 November 25 - 05:35 am [25]

• archive 26-50 December 03 - 02:05 pm [25]

• archive 51-76 March 19 - 07:23 am [25]

• archive 76-100 August 12 - 07:08 am [25]

• archive 101-125 August 12 - 07:09 am [25]

• archive 126-150 October 19 - 07:29 pm [25]

• archive 151-175 October 19 - 07:31 pm [25]

• archive 176-200 October 19 - 07:34 pm [25]

• archive 201-225 November 10 - 03:06 pm [25]

• archive 226-250 November 10 - 03:07 pm [25]

• archive 251-275 January 25 - 04:02 pm [25]

• archive 276-300 January 25 - 04:03 pm [25]

• archive 301-325 January 25 - 04:05 pm [25]

• archive 326-350 April 11 - 05:15 pm [25]

• archive 351-375 September 23 - 06:01 pm [25]

Nasser,

I had to shelve the project for the time being, so I never corrected for the stiffness issue. I've only just started revisiting the project, but I've spent a great deal of time contemplating them.

You really (stressing "really') need to look at existing cycling shoes to see how the cleats are attached- using a full length metal shank is certainly one good solution. And don't forget that there are multiple types of cleats out there- some of which share only the attachment points. Some of them stand prouder of the sole than others. There are also different ideas of proper placement of the cleat in relation to the ball and center-line.

Lastly- the fit needs to be snug through the shank- without full support, the forces of pedaling can be painful.

Depending on the type of cycling this customer does, weight is an extreme factor in creating cycling shoes- that is why the market favors carbon fiber soles.

I hope this helps, and I'd enjoy following your progress if you're willing.

Erick

Nasser, Why not use carbon fiber. I've used something similar when trying to stiffen insoles.

Cut a regular insole, glue on a shank.

Mark the holes in the shank on the top of the insole by sticking a scratch awl through.

Then use either fiberglass cloth or carbon fiber cloth with fiberglass resin and hardener. Wrap the whole thing in saran wrap.

The next day unwrap, and grind away the excess cloth. Drill out and rivet through the marks for the shanks holes. Then you will have to feather the fiberglass a little, using your grinder, in the area where you want lasting tacks to penetrate.

This method produces a very strong, lightweight insole without a whole lot of bulk. A tip, wrap the last in saran to prevent fiberglass resin from getting on it.

Oh and sand the bottom of the fiberglass all over just to rough it up for the cement.

Hope this helps

Jon

Erick, Jon,

As you know bicycle shoes and almost all sport shoes were originally hand made,i like to welt sew this road cycle shoes and stitch leather soles to them,all i have to sort out is a shape of steel shank that will cup the ball and arch, i will start them after i finish with what i am working on now which are shoes for hammer toes.thanks for your tips and suggestions.

Regards
Nasser

Nasser,

Consider using fiberglass cloth and resin to fill the shank area and in the forefoot. That way you get the best of both worlds, a welted shoe with old fashioned look and a stiff insole for pedaling. Also you can buy cleats at bike store and install them on your shoes, best to buy them in advance.

Jon

Jon,

Now you are talking,fiberglass cloth and resin to fill the cavity when the welt is sewn,that way i can minimize the size of the steel plate i need under the ball. BTW, the person who ordered the shoes is an old friend and a bicycle maker,but now days he own a bike store,sell them and parts and they also have a space in the back for repairing,he gave me some cleats and a pair of bike shoes to open if needed,and that was back when,but he is a "Tyson" and never gave up on them,so now is the time reckoning with this shoe. back to my closing.

Nasser

Finally i got the chance to put few carbon fiber layers to fill the cycle shoes cavity at Walter Klassen film special effects studio down the street from my shop,i added an extra layer for the gods and to make sure of the firmness, i will post the finish shoe when i put the cleats and stitch the soles. i am thinking whether to put a steel shank or not!!!


Nasser

Nasser,

Those are nice looking shoes, sure enough. I will be interested in seeing the finished shoe.

I must say that I have noticed, Nasser, that you have a broad range of styles that you do and are extremely skilled at doing. I admire that. I wish I were as adept.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Nasser,

BTW, at the very top of this discussion are a pair of elephant boots that Jake Dobbins did...and hand-stitched the outsole.

FWIW...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

Thanks for the kind words,i don't know being adept is a blessing or a curse? but that's what life led me to, I don't know how i missed noticing Jake's boots were hand stitched, power to your awl Jake.

Regards
Nasser

Nasser, very nice.

I don't know if a shank is necessary or not. I usually put one in before laying the cloth.

Jon

J,

First i want to say that i like your boot lasting video,not to mention your clean shop floor!!!i have a lot to learn,i think it is better to place the shank on the top of the carbon fiber cavity,rather than placing it under,but i am also no engineer,but if you think about it,it might make sense. here is a picture.

Nasser

`Sorry the boot lasting video was Jay's and not yours. sorry Jay.

Nasser,

I have to say my awl is getting a little rusty. It's been hard to find the time to get back in the shop. But if I don't pretty soon, I'll be barefoot!

Let me echo Dee-Dubb's appreciation of your broad range of styles. Very impressive! A few years ago I shuffled back to the shadows with the "lurkers". I have been fairly silent, but I still keep up with the discussions. I have truly enjoyed your contribution to the forum. Thank You for all your time and hard work.

Finally, Thanks for the kind words. It means a lot to be noticed by someone of your caliber.

Take care Gals & Guys.

Nasser,
As an avid cyclist, I am watching your project with keen interest. I love the cut and style of the upper on this cycling shoe you are making. Keep posting photos, especially of the cleat mounting. Also I noticed the V notching in your heel seat, is this piece of leather strait to begin with and you bend it around the heel, or is it cut from the hide already in a U shape?
Cheers, J.

Jake,

It is always nice to he hear from you and thanks,I am grateful to be here, it is my long sought family so to speak and i also learn and inspired being here,i also believe our trade needs all the help it can get to keep it going.

Jay,

Thank you,The next step seems to be the hardest,correctly locating the area to place the cleats, i took a foam imprints of the bottom of his feet and hopefully that will help.
You also asked about heel seat piece, i cut 3/4 inch or 1 inch strips from a thick insole shoulder than i use the blade of the 5 by 1 machine to split them into two equal wedges,top and bottom and i use both to build the heel seat,so no waste here,the grain one is used first,if you like,you might need to practice on small pieces to split them in equal thickness wedges,after that i sock the split strips in water for a while, cut them roughly to size,cut few v notches and start making some horse shoes, leave for a day to dry.This is what the old timers used to do,leather being expensive or hard to find at times.

Regards Nasser

Jay, Since you are a boot maker,you might want to cut your strips 1 inch wide,if you decide to do so of course.

Nasser

Nasser,
Thank you very much for the picture, Makes it very easy for me to understand. Also, here are some pictures of how my cleats attach to my cycling shoes and are able to be adjusted side to side, and front to back.

J,

Thanks for posting those pictures,the cleats i am using(customer choice) are the same as yours,now i have to sort out the best way to secure the bottom parts of the cleats to the carbon fiber cavity so that they wouldn't move after the soles are stitched,i need to think out of the box for this pair.i will post pictures when that's done.BTW, i admire you cyclists braveness for hooking your feet to the pedals.

Nasser

Some of you asked me to report the progress on this shoes,wasn't easy sewing into dried up welt,secured the bottom part of the cleats to carbon fiber shaped cavity which is 4mm or 5mm thick, the holes on the soles have to be made exact to meet the bottom part of the cleats(there is a simple trick you can use)and the soles i stitched with cleats fastened to bottom part,i will add strips of leather (platform) to raise the soles and to protect the cleats when walking and hopefully all goes well when the last is out.

Nasser

Nasser, I hope you're going to share the "simple trick" you mention above for aligning the holes on the soles.
Georgene

Georgene, instead of using the leather sole to mark the holes,i used the soles paper/cardboard pattern to mark the holes by simply aligning it on top of the shoe and the bottom part of the cleats which are already there,hold the paper with one hand on both sides of the cleats and tap gently with hammer the paper against the cleat which should show 4 rings(circles) on paper, punch the holes on paper and than using the paper pattern,punch the holes on leather.I hope that makes some sense.

Nasser

Here is the finished cycling shoes,the strength of the soles(carbon fiber) was beyond my expectations and the customer tried them on his bike and was very happy with them and sometimes that is the highest reward.


Nasser

Nasser,

We share the joy of your success!

Way to go!

Paul

Paul, thank you, you yourself have been going through some journey with your western boot making,i have been watching the development silently and with joy at heart.

Nasser

Nasser
They look great, And that warm fuzzy felling you are entilied to!

So when are you going to be the official supplier to to the Tour De France?

Regards
Brendan

Brendan,

It's good to hear from you,I hope all is well and the weather is warmer in Saskatchewan by now, to be frank i am relieved those cycling shoes are done,they were ordered more than two years ago, I will receive feed back of their performance,fun to make for the first time,but it takes the romance out of shoe making,i don't know about official supplier to "Tour De France", but the Canadian National Cycling Team will be a good start.
Happy Canada Day to you and other Canadian Members here.

Best regards.
Nasser

Nasser,

Your cycling shoes came out really nice. I think your choice to make leather cleats is interesting.

I'd love to hear how they perform after significant use.

Cheers,

Erick

Erick, thanks to you and all who helped me with their advice,cautions,tips and pictures,in building these shoes.
The leather cleats idea came on last minutes,probably from my soccer years,but i think it makes them easier to replace when worn.

Nasser

Something that has plagued me since I first started hand stitching outsoles is how my stitches always come out looking like a drunken sailor. I finally figured out what I was doing wrong.

Before:



after:



but I'm not going to tell you...Just kidding.

I was not making my awl holes large enough. When I would pull the thread through the too tight holes, the thread would twist and curl as the normal twist of the thread got pushed higher up the thread. You can see this quite clearly in the before picture how twisted each stitch looks. It is easier to see in this photo than with the naked eye.

This caused me to have to pull the stitches tighter to get the little knots out that would form, which just made things worse.

With the slightly wider holes, the thread pulls through without twisting significantly. and I can snug up each stitch just enough.

My holes aren't so much bigger that the thread is super loose but they are just right to make the pulling of thread without the twist.

Now I just have to decide if I'm going to pull out the twisted stitches and make it right. (probably).

Does this conform to other peoples experience or understanding?

Rick,

I've never seen that...and I don't take any precautions with regard to how wide the hole is.

I do feel that you have to control the threads, top and bottom, so that they are always pulled down in the same way...ie. with the weltside thread forward and under/inside the stitch and the soleside thread being pulled back and outside the stitch.

Also, I have it on good authority that the top (weltside) stitches should not be pulled down too tight. In that regard, I find that if I pull hard on the weltside thread...almost exclusively...it will tighten the soleside stitch very tight and that tightening will spread to the previous weltside stitch just enough to tighten it down snug without making it too tight.

What are you using for thread there?

That said, I am far from being an expert handstitching the outsole. I, too, would welcome other POV's on this process.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I'm using #8 hand thread from Maine Thread. http://www.mainethread.com/Improved_Waxed_Cord.html.

I will hazard a guess that if you have not experienced the curling and knotting problem, you are probably making your holes big enough that it doesn't occur. I don't think it has anything to do with the particular thread (I've used several different types). Although the thickness of the thread is certainly a factor in how big the holes need to be.

Rick,

I relate to you few tips my teacher said to me in regards to sole stitching,although it was a different welt,but the concept is the same,some i kept and some were too hard to get used to,but one thing he kept insisting on was "not to drop the needles until the stitch is finished all around the shoe/boot", to pull the thread, he twist one side around the neck of the awl and the other side around his hand-leather and than he pulls the thread without dropping the needles.
The other thing he said was "not to move (stop and go again) until the stitch is finished".
There is of course a relation between thread thickness and the size of the awl,i added one strand of thread on my last shoe and noticed i needed a bigger awl. some times other factors can spoil the stitch.
BTW, if you are used to stitch with needles dropped,than you need to slow down to look at the thread before you lock the stitch.

Nasser

Rick,

With the Maine Thread (I thought that's what it was) I think four strands is heavy enough for outsole work. Someone else will chime in here, hopefully but I recall reading or hearing that outsole threads should be a lot lighter in weight than insole threads. I seem to recall 4-5 strands of #10 linen yarn was the standard.

Of course it may also be dependent on how many stitches per inch you are going for. At ten stitches to the inch three strands of Teklon looks a little bit too fine...but only a little bit. I think 4 is just about right.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

Yes, 4 strands of #10 linen hand thread is standard thickness for London bespoke work, unless a very thick sole is being used, when I guess 5 or even 6 might be used.

Lance

I am getting close to finishing my first pair of chukkas. They are not as easy as they look. I got some wrinkles in the quarters while inseaming and welt stitching. I don't know how I can get rid of them. Treeing doesn't seem to be an option.

Never mind...I wanted to hand stitch the outsoles again...just for the practice if nothing else. So here are two photos (not good photos and not final form but...) of a solid eleven stitches per inch:

First photo looks terrible because I haven't dyed the welt yet. I wanted to use black thread but I wanted to see what I was doing as this isn't something I do regularly enough to have a second-nature feel for it.




Second photo is same shot with the welt dyed. This was a terrible photo (focus ended up on the toe rather than the welt) but I think you can see the results.



Once I got a rhythm going I could stitch an inch in about seven minutes at 11spi. I did beveled and fiddleback waist and in the waist the stitches are more like 4 or 5 to the inch.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on September 17, 2009)

Rick, I had lots of problems with twisting thread both inseaming and outseaming.

I have never done either before but have hand sewn my uppers and other leather with linen thread and never noticed much twisting.

I used teklon or something this time and every stitch would twist like crazy even when I felt the holes were pretty wide.

I could sew pretty fast on the uppers but the twisting on the soles was very frustrating.

Could it be the teklon as oppossed to linen?

On another forum it was talk about stitching soles by machine and that it could be a problem cutting to deep into the sole which would make it difficult to stay away from stitching through the channel cover when using the sole stitcher.

I know that it could be a problem but there is a special presser foot which has a guide that protect the channel cover from the awl. I have been using that presser foot for years and it works very well.

I don't know if you guys know about this little helper as you can see on the photos.



The channel will be cut by hand the same way as when stitching by hand and the result will be the same i.e. with a smooth bottom where you hardly can see where the tread are buried.

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on November 11, 2009)

Janne,

!!!

I've never seen such a thing! Where do you get it? Does it have a part number? Will it fit any Landis curved needle machine?

I spent nearly a week some years ago trying to invent a presserfoot that would do that. Not a lot of time but zero results too.

I'd sure like to get a hold of one of these.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
I bought the machine from my old apprentice shop and the presser foot was mounted on it. I don't know where to find it today and I didn't find a part number on it.

I am not sure if Pedersen and Landis are compatible but some parts will fit both.

As you can see the machine is set up so the last will lean against the front of the "sewing table" during the stitching. The sole edge guide is not in use. Before the stitching I put the shoe against the table front and make a mark with the presser foot which will be the center of the groove. This way you know for sure the stitches will end up in the center of the groove.

why does this sole have two layers, from a functional and aesthetic point of view? This question can be extended beyond this particular example if possible - while have two sole layers in the forepart area? For sure, you can use two layers to create a two-part coloration for style...

Are there actually three layers here? There is a very sharp transition between the second lower slab and the very bottom of the sole, which is more white.



(Message edited by producthaus on June 11, 2010)

I think all we can do is guess at the reasoning. Could be that the thin bottom layer is a laminate over a lower quality sole.

The top layer appears to be the welt.

I would think its just the contrast between the flesh and the grain.

right then, i need to stop thinking of welt as a complete layer.

I suspect that the first layer is not a welt but rather a "midsole" or "through." It might almost be thought of as an external insole as the vamp and quarters are usually continuous and no real insole is used.

The outsole is cemented or perhaps Blaked/McKayed on...through both layers. Or less likely, the through is Blaked and the outsole sewn to the through as if it were a welt.

Courtney is correct, the thin "layer" is the grain surface and stands in stark contrast to the edge of the outsole because the trimmer blade was dull and the edge of the outsole is slightly burnt...or actually the sugars in the leather are caramelized.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member