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Lance

Did you do the reshaping or Nasser? They just look so real/authentic to the principles of the foot. My personal lasts are the ones I made the brogans on and wow, what a fit. I hav studied last formations nigh onto 40+ years, and I'll stack the CW period last by any company against any modern last. And it looks like you are getting that configuration.
Now, tell me about the heel. Is it flat on the bottom or curved to cradle the under heel. I can get you pics of original lasts if you like for your record, just email me for them.

Cheers,
JesseLee

Lance,

I finished taking the rough out of the lasts and sanded them down smooth so far, i left the square toe on them,i sort of like it,i like the way you rounded that toe,i was thinking what kind of shoes to make on them,i think some sort of an oxford will be a good start, but that will be a while.

Nasser

JesseLee:

That is my handiwork, for better or worse. I do have the benefit of owning some bespoke lasts made by Terry Moore, so I have those to model my lasts' shape after, and the 'blanks' are the same as what Terry uses. In looking at Terry's lasts, I think one can really see the foot in there -- they seem to have almost a muscular structure/appearance to them. It may also be that my foot lends itself to this result -- very high arch, narrow heel, wide forefoot, all of which require a last with alot of curvature and shape.

The heel has a bit of curvature to the bottom, but I imagine less than the older lasts that you refer to and those about which Al has previously written. I retained a feather-line on the heel, but someday I may do away with that in favor of a more curved heel bottom.

Nasser:

I'm sure you know this, but make sure you check the measurements before you make any shoes on the lasts -- these blanks are oversized in the girth dimensions to allow you to take off wood and get down to your desired measurements.

Lance

Lance

I remain impressed that bootmakers are seeing, as you do, that last making is part of a small shop. In the 1860's last style there was a definitive ridge to the heel and ball area. The arch area had no edge, thus feathering was to the discretion of the shoe/boot maker. If the old guy may state a comment. I see that you have an aptitude for your observances and the ability to translate them to the blank,
I am a great admirer of lasts, though my collection only goes back to the mid 1700's and I have few, but upon each antique, I have opted to create a period shoe or boot, and by comparison to the existing models and photographs, the last is truly the first (I may have stolen that from Bill, or...).
Also, an aspect I have not seen brought up here, is the cutting contours of the inner sole ergo on historical boots and shoes.
Unlike the 90% cuts of the inner sole of 20th. century footwear, 19th. century footwear had the inner soles cut differently. The last divided into ball, arch and heel for instance. The innersole was cut 90% at the ball and toe, feathered at the arch and a 45% angle at the heel area.
I have seen from the late 1700's to the late 19th. century that the innersoles were wetted and molded to the last befor cutting. I am not sure what the boot makers of today do as I am lost back over 100 years ago in all of this sillyness. But I do know of many repro Rev war and Civil War makers who last the uppers on dry innersoles! For shame!

Cheers,
JesseLee

lance,

Thanks for the warning, i noticed the the high girth on these lasts and that's a good thing from my perspective, i also have narrow heels, high arches and not so wide foreparts, as usual with this kind of process,i first make a shoe on a pair of lasts that fit me,than i fine tune from there.
I wonder if your friend Mr, Terry Moore has a women range of the same shape lasts?

Nasser

Nasser:

I think Terry predominantly makes men's lasts, since his employer is really in the men's bespoke trade; however, I've seen pictures of a pair or two of women's shoes made, I assume, on some of Terry's lasts. My impression is that he uses the same blanks, but perhaps he orders a smaller width/girth to start working on, given that most women's feet have smaller girths than do men's feet. I ordered a couple of smaller pairs of blanks to make lasts for my wife and her sister, and I think I ordered D widths, which should still provide ample wood.

Terry does bespoke lasts exclusively, so he would not have a range of lasts at all; he simply calls up his blank supplier and orders a pair of blanks based on his measurements of the customer's feet.

Of course, one issue with these blanks is that they have a 7/8" or so heel, which may not be what most women would be looking for.

Lance

Lance,

Here is a pair of lasts that i like to get a range from one day,it is very similar to the lasts above,but with a very smart toe shape, the reason i collects (prefer)my lasts in ranges or sets is that,i used to make shoes for a store and also theater groups which demanded the same style uppers,but in many different sizes.i have few sets of women high heels lasts,but not a good set of low heels.BTW, young women slowly realizing (at least in this country)that high heels shoes worn for long hours are damaging to feet and spine which usually appear after 40.

Lance, Nasser, all,

I have a question and comments...first the comments as the questions follow...

The rough-cuts that Lance and Nasser have shown look very interesting. I would give them a try if I could buy one rough size pair...like Mr. Terry Moore does. I find that to be an appealing concept but I don't suppose they could be offered in single pairs much less cheaply than more refined lasts.

The thing that strikes me, however, is that what you fellers are doing is what you would do with a finished last anyway...as bespoke makers, I mean. You would just do it with build-ups instead of cutting down. And for those of us with very little experience (I wish I had more) we would be pushing the envelope as to whether the last had been cut too far or whether the pair matched for shape and contour in a way that would not be pushing the envelope if build-ups were put on a finished last, rather than cutting it down. This is not criticism, it's simply free-association, sort of--random, or maybe not-so-random thoughts.

Another comment...Nasser's lasts above seem to have a high instep/cone. I recently ran across something in HMSFM that suggested that German and east European shoemakers preferred a higher cone last than the British, for example. This is starting to look more like what I would call a "boot last" than a typical West End shoe last.

Yet...and here's my question...I see many makers--the photos here and from HMSFM--that put build-ups on the cone of the last to accommodate their customers...effectively raising the cone.

All things being equal, why would you put the build-up on the top of the cone rather than somewhere else...such as under the medial arch? Or along the sides of the cone? It's not like the short or long heel measurement is being referenced...or even given any attention.

If the pedograph suggest a lateral bulge, OK, I'd tend to build up there first; or if the pedograph indicated a high arch I'd feel justified putting the build-up on the cone but...all things being equal, remember?...why just on the top of the cone as the first choice?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

A number of thoughts -- though remember, I'm not a lastmaker, just someone experimenting and pretending to be one!

First off, the blank is a copy of one I got from Terry, and the blank has been digitized and can be ordered in single pairs, though I don't think at this point the factory would be interested in a single-pair order. However, if there were sufficient interest from a bunch of people in ordering one or two pairs, we might be able to create a sufficiently large order to make it worthwhile. Alternatively, if/when I decide to reorder some pairs, I will give HCC members the chance to piggy-back on my order.

I believe the price may be well below what a finished pair from Bill costs, since the factory needs not invest the effort to finish the toe or the heel -- still, I don't think this is about saving alot of money, but rather affording flexibility in creating a pair of bespoke lasts.

Now, as for the question of how this differs from simply altering a finished last.... I guess, in some sense it doesn't -- as you've noted previously, a really skilled maker can make a 9EEE out of a 7A, so in that regard there is no real difference. However, some things that occur to me. First, to me it is easier to take off wood than to do build-ups -- not that I can't do the latter, but I would rather take wood off and be left with a solid wood last, rather than one with bits of leather here and there. Second, I think this approach affords easier flexibility in creating the desired insole shape, since there is surplus wood available (assuming one orders a blank of sufficiently large girth). With the extra wood, you can transfer your desired insole shape to the blank, and then easily create the feather line using your rasp/surform/microplane, whereas with a finished last, you have to do build-ups to alter the insole shape, which I think may be a lot more work. I know for reasons of economy you prefer to add on rather than take wood off, but that strategy requires you to start with a last that is under measurement and dimension in all areas, and for many feet that might require alot of build-ups -- for example, my feet have, let's say, a B heel and a EE forefoot, so to fit my heel width you'd end up doing alot of building up of the forefoot and the instep. Again, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' approach, just a question of which is the easier way to get there.

I think you might be surprised how relatively straightforward working with these blanks is -- they have most of the shape 'built in,' so in taking the wood down you mainly want to maintain the existing shape while reducing the dimensions -- of course, perhaps my comments merely reflect my ignorance of the subtleties of lastmaking. Check back after I've made lasts for lots of other people's feet. Still, I really hope the next order you'll give it a try -- I honestly think you will enjoy it.

Now, as for shape and the cone, etc. Terry starts his work based on the actual shape/tracing of the foot. In essence, he puts the blank on top of this tracing and works to bring the margins of the last down to the margins of the foot, so if there is a big lateral bulge, I think his finished lasts would incorporate the idiosyncrasies of the individual foot. Of course, based on his decades of experience, I am sure Terry also incorporates changes to improve the look of the finished shoe and to ensure optimal fit. However, once the last is to shape, if the last needs to be built up to reach the desired girths, the logical place would be on top of the last or somewhere on the bottom surface, since the outside margins of the last are now reflective of the foot itself.

Certainly in my case, adding a build-up in the waist of the shoe would be inappropriate, since I have a very high arch and instep (my foot prints with no or almost no ink at the arch). Perhaps the reason for the build-up on top of the cone is mere ease -- it's certainly much easier to shape the cone that to rework the sides of the last.

FWIW, Terry does take a LH and SH measurements, and looking at the lasts he made for me the lasts do seem to honor those, so I wouldn't necessarily say he isn't referencing them.

As to the different styles of shoe, what stands out to me in the German/E. European shoes is the high, bulbous toe box. That is not to say their lasts don't have a higher cone, perhaps they do, but that seems less apparent to me once the shoe is on the foot.

Hope that provides some more food for thought.

Lance

Dw,

working down the blanks is not hard, as Lance said the lines of the lasts are there to guide toward the desired shape,this is i call,bespoke on a budget,but true bespoke like probably Mack's shoes which i thing the lasts are made for that person,they do the same at Lobb according to what i heard. the last i posted above is London made by G CARE.
I personally don't like the lasts shapes of the German/Austrian/Italian or E European, they tend to be wide (meaty)all along and low instep/cone, and not so interesting toe shapes,it might be true that their shoe makers prefer the high cone,but that's not what they get from the local last makers and that's not what we see in HMSFM Although the workmanship is excellent.

Nasser

Nasser,

Just to clarify...on page 48 of HMSFM the very first last is identified as a German style last and the description implies that it is characteristic of German style lasts to have a high instep. Al Saguto sent me a last to look at last year that was German in origin...it too had a higher cone than the West End last I have been playing with.

I might add that the last depicted in HMSFM does not have a bulbous toe. And toe shapes are the first thing a maker should learn to modify.

All that said, I don't know...all I am going by is what I've seen and read.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Lance,

On page 46 and 47 of HMSFM is shown the process by which a particular last is fitted up. From the photo on page 46, I would not necessarily put a build-up in the lateral waist (although it is hard to really tell) but the fitter has. I would definitely put a build-up at the lateral joint and the fitter has done that, too. But he has also put a huge and rather unrefined (to my eyes) build-up over the cone. It is this sequence, in part, that prompted my question...although somewhere, in HMSFM or in some of the photos I have seen of big name bespoke makers in Europe, I have seen double build-ups on the cone and nothing else.

That and when I first started exploring this path, several noted and respected shoemakers told me that the short heel and long heel weren't really taken into account in shoemaking. I am gratified to know that Terry Moore sees things the same as I do...it gives me a touchstone.

As for building up a last to fit or cutting a rough down...I see benefits in both approaches. Part of me (my adventurous, reckless and intuitive side) naturally gravitates toward cutting the last but the other part--the logical part--isn't as sanguine.

Since I have built up most of my career all I can say is that I have found it entirely easier to build up...uniformly...than to cut down. If I want to add an eighth of an inch to the lateral waist I can do that and control its substance and its location pretty exactly by virtue of the size and thickness of the build-up I use. I can literally see I am adding one-eighth inch...or that I am adding more, or less.

On the other hand, if I want to take off an eighth of an inch in the waist, all I have to go by is girth measurement...and that doesn't tell me a thing about how much wood I have actually removed in anyone particular place. I can easily imagine a waist measurement, derived by cutting from a larger size, that is identical in girth, but lower in profile as it approaches the featherline, on one last than on the other. You follow?

I understand that it is feel and experience and eye...and that's the magic...but it is magic, not logic. I think have a fair amount of that experience and feel and eye but I am not so certain I am willing to take the consequences if it turns out I don't have enough...especially with a paying customer.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

One thing i meant to say about this book for some time,i don't think it was written by shoe makers or people who are shoe making teachers,but by publishers and maybe some museum or costume maker,not to mention the translation from Hungarian to German and to English,few members referred to those mistakes like on page 155, not describing correctly the function of the stitch marker, there is also anther mistake on page 163,Paul noticed how it incorrectly naming the parts of the heel, not saying it might be wrong again here,but generally speaking and form my observation of the Germanic people feet during the years, that they generally have broad (wide) foreparts and instep and again speaking in general, geography (land scape)has a lot to do with shaping of the foot,for example, the foot of person,whether he/she grow up walking on rocks(mountains) or plains,sand or pavement or grass, they shape differently.

Nasser

Nasser,

Well, I am aware that it is flawed. Too bad, I say. But it is also something pretty unique--a look at shoemaking on a level that has never been done before...as a coffee-table book. Admittedly, there is lots to give someone who is knowledgeable pause but there's also lots to enchant and learn from.

As for the differences between German style lasts and West End style lasts...I really and sincerely don't Know. I have several models of West End style last, but I have only seen the one pair of German style that Al sent me and the photos in HMSFM.

I just used what little I know (or thought I knew) about German style lasts as an entre to the question about putting a build-up over the cone.

When I first started looking at making shoes, I tried to make some on my boot lasts....at least partially because I was trying to accommodate the short and long heel in a similar way to how I use them to make boots. The upshot was a shoe that some thought looked "choked." I got the impression that it was because my boot lasts were judged to have too high a cone...

And now you know the rest of the story.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Lance,

When you order the blank last next time, I would like to join in for a pair. Thanks.

Dw
Lance and Nasser, are what I seem to be on the money.
My2 .5 cents Canadian. As for adding to the medial arch to gain girth VS adding to the cone ??? To do a bit of biomechanics . The ankle axis is off set from the tibia and fibula rear and laterally. To an angle radiating from the medial. being more forward than the lateral, exact degrees escape me. So adding to the cone medially is more in line with the forward motion of the foot.

The insole how ever made is a form of orthtotic and determines the way the heel strike and moves from a pronated state (mid stance) to a supinated rigid foot at toe off.
When we make orthotics we basiclay alter these "force moments" to get a mechanical smooth gait, given stock genaric last footwear.

Again the angle of the toe break on a last has a certian amount of influance of the gait as it may aid or impede the individual's foot stance from good to bad. As mentioned the geographics and race et al would have a local effect on a regional last design. But as we now travel and mix these regional styles have sort of went the way of the local saddle maker also. As Pelvis, leg structure, length, and riding styles have changed.

I had a set of lasts made by Mr L. Bird an "outworker" for J.Lobbs in London in 1982. They were very east end and I had to do a little fitting up to get the desired fit. But hey looked a lot like a bunch of WW11 British/Canadain lasts I have with a medial cone, A medial heel wedge and a generous toe with a tight waist, higher heel, some thing like a munston last.

Doing ortho work gives you a point of view that understands why moving a the ball angle and heel angle fore and aft and dorsal and planer, have a big impact on wearabilty and comfort.

Could expand ad infunum but bed time for bonso

Ok,

I have a beginner last modifying question. My wife has a pair of shoes I made her and now wants a molded leather over 1/8" poron insole like her sandals have in a new pair. She walks 4-6 miles per day and that will be the main use for them.

So, do I build up the top of the last for the extra or do I add to the bottom of the last? The total thickness of the insole is not quite 1/4" (6mm)

Thanks.

Paul

Paul:

If you are going to make the shoes with all of the insole material on the last, then there should be no reason to alter the last -- for example, we don't modify a last to reflect different thicknesses of insole leather. The only time you would need to adjust the last to add volume is if you are going to insert something into the interior of the shoe after the shoe is made. In the latter case, I believe the add-on is generally done to the bottom of the last, though saying I'm no expert on orthopedics is a gross understatement.

Lance

Paul

I agree with Lance about the insole thickness, but if you have to build up, I would always build up the top of the last. The reason being that building that much on the bottom would alter the line and possibly the pitch of the last.

This thread is going to get a lot of differing opinions I reckon.

Tim

Hey Lance and Tim,

What I am talking about is like an orthotic insert. I have already failed at making the insole that you build on as lumpy as I want. It will not lay well against the last and gave unsatisfactory results.

I can see it both Tim's way and the opposite. If you built up the top, at least the heel bulge area will be off after putting in the insert. If you build the bottom out that far, it would round way under at the heel and look odd. Maybe not follow the line of the last and go vertical on the bottom of the heel?

Thanks again.

Paul

Paul
I would add it to the bottom. Just don't undercut the edge to follow the last's curve. 3/16 should not throw out the line to much and it has to be the same thickness from heel to toe so you don't affect the pitch.

Saying that if I make and insulated boot I build up the whole last so after lasting, the insulation compressed during lasting will spring inward to the cavity left were the last was. The upper leather will hold it's shape and the lighter lining will move first.

If you want to mold the leather to the bottom of the last including a met pad you will have to dampen you leather, do a bit of gentle tapping with the hammer then wrap a hard sponge or similar against the insole with pantyhose or an elastic bandage to hold the leather till it dries and hold it's shape. Then you must fill in those undercuts with something firm enough to keep the shape. Cork works well.

Need some help.

I'm working on a set of last in which the measurement on the last match the foot expect for the high instep and the short heel measurement. In the past I've always had to add some to get the measurement at the lo instep to match the foot. I'm not sure if I just need to add the build up to a very small area on top of the cone, which I think will make the boot not look smooth. Thanks for any help in advance.

Mike

Mike,



I'd look at my outline of the heel to see if the build could be added to the curvature of the heel area, making it wider.

The first time I was faced with needing to build the SH, I saw the gap in my string as it went around the girth. It was all along the sides of the heel section. Then I realized that a last with a large SH would be wider in that area. The cone at the High Instep could be some wider too.

I figured we need to respect the heel width. So after estabilshing that correct measurement, I go ahead a build up to the outline I've drawn around the profile.

I begin by cementing a piece of two oz. splilt, that comes from the back of the heel up to the Low Instep line, on both sides and bring it across the hinge area. And then I build from there. Don't forget to cut the hinge free, both in the wedge and the cut at the bottom.

Good Luck,

Paul

I have a potential customer that takes a US size 18 shoe (narrow). I'm not sure where to start looking for such a last.

Any of you friendly folks out there have suggestions?

Rick,

If you find a size 18 last which i doubt,it's fine and dandy,but what i do in situations like this, i pick the biggest last i have, (size 13 or 14) and start adding to it until you get to the size you want and do not forget to make a fitter first.

Nasser

If you have a last model on record with GlobalFootwear or Jones and Vining, you can ask them to digitally grade up to an 18 and turn you a last.

If you don't have a last model, you might be able to adopt one that they already have in their database.

In the absence of either of those alternatives, maybe you can make one using Koloff...?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Rick,

We can grade to a size 18 and have gone larger than that in the past. What type of shoe would you be making (style/hh/toe shape, etc)? Contact me directly if you want to discuss this.

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

Rick,

I have a 17-1/2 W in a J &V style 6933.

Bill

Hi all,
Was wondering if anyone had an extra pair of boot lasts around a size 9.5, and don't want a fortune for.
Jim

Jimmy,
Give Panhandle Leather Co. a call, 1800-537-3945, Aaron, Nathan, or Mr. Jim Blaine will help you out. IIRC their used lasts run about $20.00 USD (+shipping), and they are really good about getting shipments out their door the same day.

-Jeff
Member, HCC

Any one know where to get a run of lasts and patterns for english riding boots?

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT CONCERNING LASTS FROM GLOBAL FOOTWEAR SOLUTIONS

I have some important news for last customers of Global Footwear Solutions. I want to begin by saying that your ability to purchase lasts from GFS will only be affected negatively if you are involved in the athletic industry in any way. Earlier this month, I accepted a position at Nike as their Master Last Maker. My wife Juel and I will be moving to Portland, OR soon and I will begin working for Nike on February 15th. Due to the competitive conflicts involved, I will be pulling the only two athletic lasts I have from my list of available styles. I will also be pulling any hiking boot or walking shoe lasts. All three of these categories represent a very small percentage of the lasts styles we offer.

Juel will be taking over GFS, which will be scaled down to a business that offers single pairs of lasts on existing styles to custom boot and shoe makers. No other products and services will be offered except for the POSSIBILITY that existing styles can be combined to offer other variations (one toe placed on another backpart, heel height adjustments, etc.). We are in the process of converting OLGA to an actual online store where you will be able to purchase your lasts directly from the site using major credit cards or PayPal.

The turnaround time on lasts should actually improve once all of these changes take place. As most of you know, I have often taken much longer than the 3-5 weeks I strive for in delivering your lasts. This is because, as much as I have wanted to focus on the custom last segment of the business, the harsh reality is that it brings by FAR, the smallest return on investment of time and money. I was always forced to focus more on things that provide better bill paying income such as developing new styles for shoe companies, helping with the development of and selling the lightbeam® foot scanner, consulting, and wearing every hat in the workflow process, including order processing, CAD/CAM operator, international communications, customer service rep, shipper, OLGA data entry person, bookkeeper, janitor, and cat sitter.

Juel’s work ethic is second to none and since she will not be taking a job outside the home in Portland she will be able to devote the appropriate time to processing these last orders. In fact, Juel is a very competent CAD operator and I don’t expect it will be long before she is doing all of the grading herself. I fully expect you will find the service you get from GFS to be MUCH better than what I was able to provide while juggling all of those torches, chain saws, and cats. And I will still be around, just not as your point of contact on orders.

I appreciate the patience and loyalty so many of you have shown me over the years (especially those of you who go back to the days of The Last Word). Please continue that patience as we transition from Missouri to Oregon and as Juel becomes more accustomed to the business. She has been to The Roundup with me, scanned feet, and listened to me babble about lasts for ten years. Personally, I think you will not only NOT miss a beat, but you will probably be wishing we had been done this much sooner.

Thank you,

Bill Tippit, Sr.

Bill,

Portland is one of my favorite cities anywhere in the world, although it's a bit rainy.

Great Argentine tango there

Welcome to the neighborhood!

Bill,

I'm really happy for you and Juel. This has been a long process for you. I wish you lots of luck with this move.

As one who has experienced delays in getting last orders in the past, I know it's been a struggle for you to do all those hats. I'm happy that Juel will be taking that part over for you.

I guess we should be thankful to Nike, for being cooperative in allowing you to keep GFS for our benifit.
Good Luck to you guys, and stay in touch with the Colloquy.

All the Best,
Paul

Bill, Congratulations on your new job.I appreciate all your work over the years.Nike is lucky to have you......... Sincerely, John

Bill,

Congratulations, Please come and visit us little big people here once in a while now that you will be rubbing shoulders with gods of shoe productions,I am very pleased to hear that Juel will continue the GFS. All the best.

Regards
Nasser

Bill
Good Luck in your new job...
I've done buisness with you when it was the Last Word and I will continue do so now.
Good Luck again..
Lonnie

Bill,
Congratulations, I hope this all works out with awesomeness and 'win!'
As far as catsitting is concerned--- I think it's a deep and underlying conspiracy somewhere within the shadowy world of Naugahyde that these felines converge in plotting their revenge against their 'masters.' My cat is a horrible apprentice, and does nothing much more than chase waxed ends.

-Jeff
Member, The HCC

Bill,
First, I congratulate you and wish to celebrate your new, well deserved position in Portland. Your singular appreciation for the relationship of the foot and last may be unique in today's world. Especially in mass shoemaking. And though I have never owned a Nike before, I'll be looking to purchase some made on your last designs soon.
You've paid your dues, buddy, with great training, cultivating a personal and corporate following of your expertise, and delivering a great service, in spite of a few days late here or there. But your work with us custom makers has given you a unique view, and I expect has already helped improve the mass produced footwear-and now the best to come..........
You have generously shared time, feedback, and advice with me on many occasions (I'm not one of your most profitable clients) and I am, and will always be appreciative of that. thanks, and good luck.

Cheers!

Many thanks to all those who posted or sent privately their congrats and good wishes. It's been a whirlwind of activity and I simply haven't had time to respond individually. My itinerary the past several weeks has included teaching new CAD and fit techniques to the model room in Leon for 2 weeks, getting food poisoning in Leon, being examined by a doctor who didn't speak any English at the hotel in Leon (bellman interpreted), having a flight home canceled, missing a standby flight by one seat, and having a third flight delayed a few hours. That was followed by one day home and then off to Portland with Juel on a house hunting trip (we fly back to MO tomorrow). Once things settle down I'll be able to kick start the last machine and start responding to everyone more appropriately. We both DO appreciate all of the support however and I just wanted to be sure to acknowledge that.

Bill Tippit, Sr.

Bill
Welcome back, many have wondered if you were still with us, it's been so long. We look forward to more lasts from you.

hey all, I posted in the wrong place on this forum under machinery for sale oops!!, so i will post here,

I am looking for Jones and vining catalogue does anyone know where I can get one. I tried an internet search for jones and vining, and I found thier site but not a catalogue to download. i tried calling them. No one answered. I tried emailing them no one got back to me. Can any one send me a link as to where I can download a catalogue or send away for one snail mail. If you have one on hand and do not want it anymore please contact me. designstudios@hotmail.com

I am also, looking for ANY last company catalogues from differnt companies Including TLW Catlogue.

Thanks a bunch for any help.
Your links, phone numbers and resources are greatly appreciated. thanks much

-marlietta

Marlietta,

Here is the contact people tell me is the right person.

JONES & VINING AR - Model & Production
1 Compu Last Drive
Walnut Ridge, AR 72476
Tel: 870-886-6621
Fax: 870-886-1847
Contact: Spencer Bruce

This is with the disclaimer that I have never gotten a response, but on the boot forum people have claimed they will talk to you.

Paul

I just received a catalog from J&V. They don't give them away. I had talked to them a few times about getting a last. Nice people to talk to to. Very informative. If you want to order lasts, talk to Allen 1-870-886-6621 ext.18.

Hey all,

Thank you soo much for your welcoming replies. I am new to this forum and feel like I have found a home. Every one has been so helpful and informative.

Tia, thanks so much for Allen's phone number at jones and vining. I spoke with him and although they do not give the catalogues away for free I went ahead and ordered one.

For anyone else who wants to know the proceedure is as follows:send a check for US $20.00 for the catalogue (shipping expense is included), They will in turn send a copy to you. You can send the check to Jones & Vining, Inc. P.O. Box 779, (or 1500 NE Front Street) Walnut Ridge, AR 72476-0779.

They do not have a PDF of it nor do they accept credit cards. So the best thing to do is send them a check an a letter requesting their catalogue.

Marlietta,

Did you find out if they will sell you individual lasts and what they cost?

- Rick

Hey I have another question,rather odd really hopefully someone can answer it, does anyone own a gilman last lathe?

I am designing a modern miniture form of this lathe and would like the measurements of the lathe area. No worries, don't come back at me with your doubts, I have experience in machine design & making and 20 years of experience in carpentry. So this sort of thing IS up my alley.

So my question is,On the gilman, there is a frame, that the model last sets in and then the block of wood on the other side is clamped to. I need the total distance between one side of the frame to the other horizonally, and the measurements of the oscilating frame vertically. I would also appreciate measurements of the frame which holds the model and it's gears, and the frame area that holds the last being turned.

If I could figure out how to up load a pic of the area I am speaking of, I would post it along with my question, but because I am new, I am not sure how to go about that. Thus, I have to rely on the discription above.

When finished, I belive this sort of machine would be very helpful to us bespoke community. Imgine beiing able to duplicate your own lasts?

Your help and imput is greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

Marlietta.
You may contact me at designstudios@hotmail.com

Rick, I didn't get that far. right now, I want to see what they have. Frank tells me they have an inventory of over 5,000 last styles. That is dizzing amount of inventory. Allen informs me that they have a collection of over 100 years of last examples and models.

You may call allen at 870-886-6621 ex, 18. Allen admits that he is never at his desk, but will return all calls. He states that his best way to contact him is to email him at :Jasmith@jvlast.com

Marlietta,

A good description of the Gilman lathes can be found in Golding vol, 1 chapter IX page-246
The book can be downloaded from the HCC home page.

Nasser

Rick, I do belive that J&V sell lasts one at a time, however, I was on the road when speaking to allen, thus, i neglected to ask. When reading the forum under lasts, it does imply that J&V does sell individual lasts. Many bespoke individual have been very pleased with J&V service. you order one day and 10 days later your last is sent to you.

Nesser:

I have the book golding Vol.I in hard copy. I saw a discription but if there were actual dementions I didn't see it. I also have the patent discription. However, in the two patents one the orginal the other an updated form, they were so intriged with the on and off switch that there were no measurements or dicription of the ocelation mechanizm other than there is one. Additionally, because it was a modified gun stock lath, they didn't find rediscribing it's inner working necessary. To them it was nomenclature. To us 150 years later it is: What?

In the patent , they do not show where the knifes are or how the pentegraph feature works. You'd think they were proud of such and want to discribe it. But they didn't. I do understand how this pentegraph feature was troublesome but I still wanted to understand what they did to then improve upon it or leave it out in my design.

For you cad operators who responded, thank you. I know you are an expert model makers and Cad designers, and belive in it and so do I. I think many of us wish we could aford such a thing but think of it this way, Who can aford a 150,000 dollar software plus a CNC lathe?

What if someone had a duplicater that is 1% percent of that cost? I think it would make our bespoke jobs easier, don't you think?

If you check around, you can find small cnc router tables that might be able to do the trick.
Also, there are older router/duplicators that I remember from years ago. I think that they bolted somehow to a wood lathe and did their thing
John Lewis

Here is a web site that claims you can build your own. Plans are $20.
http://www.copycarver.com/uses.htm
Site looks good, but I don't know
John Lewis

I tried the copycarver. Doesn't work so well. It's really a 3 axis system. Trying to rotate the model and target is a prohibitively difficult registration issue.

Two thumbs down from me.

Yep, I have tried the copy carver. It did suck for last duplication! When designing and building a machine for a certain industry, it is important to cross reference existing machines but also concider what worked in the past. The gilman worked, thus it makes sence to begin with a similar design but update it to work with modern motors. The gilman incomberance and wieght was all metal in motors and pullys. These large motors and pulleys are not necessary with today's motors and perhaps, I might venture to say modern motors more powerful.

The main operation of the gilman is the area I requested measurements for: The frame which holds both the model and block being turned duplicating the model last. Beyond that it is levers and over sized motors that today's motors for the same capacity are less than 4" inches in circumfrance.

Rick-

I am trying to avoid the whole CNC part because then you will need the software, thus I want to keep it analogue and accessable to anyone in the footwear industry. Lets face it, at bespoke our concentration is making footwear. Few select have figured out the last making software. The rest perhaps still scratching our heads. Having a machine to duplicate at a reasonable price is long over due, don't you think?

John, that is a great Idea as part of my research. thanks.

Well, shoot, I thought that the copy carver might be good thing. I wonder if you could use a clapped out metal lathe as the basis for a carver. Lots of mass so its rigid, adjustable speeds, automatic feed, the master and the blank could be rigged up to be held and rotated 360 degrees between the headstock and tail stock, a compound that will move on the X axis as well as the Y axis. Figure out a way to mount a small router. Best of all,one that was too worn out to do metal work in the 1000s of an inch would still probably hold close enough for a last, and are very cheap.

From Allen at Jones and Vining:

We will gladly make any last you so choose, or digitize a last of your choice for your shop. We have many options available from the old Last Word catalogue, to well over 100 years of acquisitions in storage. What may not be represented in our catalogue may be available from another old defunct customer model. We use polyethylene plastic, and have 4 hinge choices. No hinge, "V" hinge, SES hinge (for handsewn mocc construction) and PAC hinge which is a little different, but does not like very much soling pressure. We have two choices in jack tubes (thimbles) and they are 1 1/2" X 9/16" commonly used on women's lasts, and 1 5/8" X 5/8" commonly used on men's lasts. All are OD measurements. We can supply all options of metal bottoms on the lasts, but we need to know up front what you need on your particular order.

Currently it is taking us around 2 weeks or less to complete a project. This changes as our production numbers increase or decrease. Please remember that we are a mass production facility first, custom last producer second, because we can not make a living on the single pairs. Our current price is ##.00 (ed: price redacted per Colloquy rules- prices are reasonable) US dollars per pair, with an additional ##.00 for shipping expenses. The extra ## will work for up to 3 pair, then we have to have additional expenses as they are figured using the carriers method of computation. Most of the custom makers don't order more than one pair anyway, so that may not be needed. You may supply us with a shipper account number and we will waive the ##.00 extra.

You can either send in a tracing of the foot with all measurements, or send an e-mail stating what you want to use for finish measurements. We will work with ball girth, and foot length (add any amount you choose for finish length depending on the toe shape), to get the finished product. If you want to pursue true custom lasts, we can take a foot scan and implement the necessary changes to an existing last so the foot will be configured well inside the last. This is very expensive and we do not push this on our customers. These will cost anywhere from ###.00 to ###.00 per pair of lasts. Before you fall out of your seat, please understand a couple of things. For each pair of shoes/boots made from that pair of lasts, the price decreases by half. Also, our time is valuable to us and we have spent many thousands of dollars on the latest technology to allow us to work in this manner. Same as if you were making a pair of boots. Standard prices versus all the add ons. Same scenario, different person. We are not trying to hold you up, but we do expect to be paid for our expertise as well.

I may have missed something here, but if I did, please let me know and I will certainly get back with you. Best method of contact is e-mail. We want your business, but we have to diversify our work load here meaning I am not always around a phone. E-mail will get me day or night, and it will be answered as the phone will, but this way I can sit down and answer several messages at once and in a timeley manner. We have never begrudged a phone call and will not start now. If a message is left we will call back.

Thank you for allowing me to explain some things. I hope you understand the reasoning behind it. I have seen it posted where we don't answer the phone. If you don't follow the menu, or contact a persons dedicated extension number, you won't get to talk to someone.

Another note about experience with the Copycarver. It is very loud and makes a huge mess. You have you stand there working it for hours on end.

Even if it had worked as a 4 or 5 axis mill, it would be brutal to use.

John, what is a clapped out metal lathe? Perhapes there is a part of my research that I am missing. Will you educate me on what a clapped out metal lath is or post a link to where there is a pic and an example of such. Thanks much,

Marlietta

Rick,

as far as any analogue copy carver or lathe, you have to stand there and watch it. it is not auctomatic Like a CNCand it will make a huge mess.When ever you exchange time for saved time, you will have to pay money. To save money and do it your self you are using your time instead of your money.

As far as the mess, this mess can be rectified if You use a vacume head table under the cutter similar to a plastic vacume forming table for plastic vacume forming.

Marlietta
Sorry about the slang. Clapped out simply means that the lathe is well used and past its prime. It will no longer produce turned metal parts that will hold to tight tolances such as + or - a couple of thousands of an inch. It could also have damage to gears used in threading, or the back gear etc. None of which should made a lot of difference for last making. These lathes would not be worth the expense and time of rebuilding to metal working standards, but have plenty of cast iron to be rigid enough for last making. The can be picked up for usually the price of iron scrap or a little more. I would design a device that would fit on the lathe that would be similar to what you see on a key cutting machine. Envision a U shaped piece of metal. On on leg of the U is a metal pin that tracks on the master copy. On the other leg of the U is a wood working trim router that can also plunge cut.
This U piece is attached to the compound that moves on the X axis of the lathe (right to left etc.) The compound can also move on the Y axis, which is 90 degrees to the x axis.

Now the master last and the blank are held in a device that is (just for the sake of argument) 1" round steel rod 6" long on one end, then expands with an opening (like the eye of a needle), another 2-3" of steel rod, and then another (eye of the needle) opening. The blank and the master are in these openings held by screw clamps of some sort. This whole thing is mounted between the headstock of the lathe and the tail stock. As such, it can rotate 360 degrees and then be held stationary where ever you want it.

Another idea would be to acquire a table top CNC mill. They ar small and not that expensive on the used market. As in the post above, J and V will supply you with a digitized last file. There are also a number of better machine shops that can scan a master and digitize it. Would also be a good excersise for a college eng class etc.
John L
John L

John thankyou, so much for such a detailed explaination. I can tell you have lots of experience in this field of metal. Check your email. I hope to talk with you soon.

Allen,

It's good to hear information from you here- Thank you for that.

Others,

I have a few thoughts on last making and using things like copy carvers- I'm going to jump over to "One Last Question" since it's more about making than sourcing.

Erick

John:


So, as you envision it, the lathe is really only serving as a stable base and provides the central axis for the original and the cutting head, i.e. the lathe wouldn't be 'running'/rotating, is that right?

The Gilman lathe does something somewhat similar, in that the cutting head moves in/out based on the movement of the tracing wheel on the original; however, the original and the copy do rotate, but at a very slow rate -- I'd guess about one rotation every 5 or 10 seconds. The cutting head has 3 or 4 cutting bits that are somewhat akin to router bits (I don't exactly recall if the cutting head itself rotates). However, the copy is next to the original, rather than held in the same axis.

Alot of the complexity of the Gilman is that it enables the automatic grading -- both length and girth -- of the copy, which therefore requires the copying/cutting head be attached to various arms to allow geometric scaling. I think it may also allow you to rotate the copy in the opposite direction in order to convert a right-foot last in to a left-foot copy, and vice versa.

I know there a few Gilman lathes out there for sale and which I've (perhaps crazily?) contemplated trying to acquire. Honestly, I think one of the challenges would be sourcing good maple or beech blocks to use in the things.

Lance

A note about good wood.

We have a bargain wood sales store where I am. I believe such places are common. You can get high quality hardwood planks at such places very cheaply.

The planks usually have some dimensional variety in length and width. That's why they end up on the bargain pile. But this is no problem at all.

You have the added advantage that you can pre-cut the last profile before laminating. This give you a very rough last shape so not so much wood needs to be removed.

I have done this several times and find it quite satisfactory.

I believe this laminated result is actually higher quality than one would get from a solid block of wood. This is because you can see that the boards are properly dried out and the glue laminate probably also makes them more dimensionally stable than a block would be.

Just my opinion though.

Lance:
Pretty much. The lathe serves like you said as a stable base, and central axis. The lathe would not rotate under power. The device that held the master and blank would have indexing plates on the screws( round plates with holes drilled every few degress around the perimeter that can be rotated and then locked in place with a pin through the hole) that held the master and blank in place, and allow them to be rotated within the fixture and then locked in position. Depending on how you wanted to set the thing up, you could cut right to left, or rotate the thing a few degrees at a time by hand. You could also design a somewhat more complex master and raw stock holder that would allow cutting 360 degrees. I have not figured out the automatic grading, and none of this might work if I were to build it instead of thinking about it. But, I think it would be a good start. As far as the maple or beech blocks, the only thing I can think of would be to glue them up with high quality glue.
John L

Rick:

I've used the laminated process (per Koleff); recently finished one using hard rock maple. I just wonder about the longer term dimensional stability of the laminated method.

Certainly cutting the profile to start makes things alot easier.

John: I can't really imagine figuring out a way to grade the last using the approach you envision. At a minimum, it would add alot of complexity, even if one could figure out the geometry of the thing.

Lance

I'd think if the adhesive is of good quality, laminated would be fine- keep the grain as even as possible. I over heard a conversation about doing an inlay with multiple types of wood- that's where things get harry because different species will contract and expand at different rates.

OTOH, I've been told that laminated blocks will dull a blade fast on a last lathe- and keeping the sets of blades evenly sharpened is important so a pair coming off the machine is indeed the same. Not a problem if you are cutting by hand or one at a time.

Lance
Grading the last in girth would not be difficult. One would only need to adjust the length of the tracking metal pin on the master, screwing it in or out in order to make the router cut closer or farther out. Lenghtwise: Thats going to take some thought.
John L

Rick,

The gilman had a pentagraph attatchment on it that was on on the orginal machine. It was an improvement 5 years later.

If you look up pentagraph duplicator in freepatents online, you can get a good idea of how this would work.

Thanks lance for your question it sheds more light on the gilman.

-marlietta

By the way guys, on the subject of wood. Tree services spring up all over the country. Many of these tree services will give the wood of a felled tree for

FREEE!



All you have to do is come pic it up. maple grows here in washington so there is an ample supply.

Also there is a lot of FREE... maple and hard wood available through Craigs list.

If you are going to use a felled tree though, ask if it was grown in clay, sand or loose soil. In order for maple to be hard as a rock, it must grow in hard to grow area such a a packed rock, clay or clay and rock soil. You can make a softer wood hardend like maple by soaking it in a wood petrifying solution. You can look up this recipie on line. You will need a potters kiln to make the petrofiying action take hold. the degree of temp you bring it up to will determine the hardness.

When usiing a tree service, you can request them to cut the rounds in a certain length during their felling process.

Developing a good relationship with them by cleaning up the felled tree mess will insure you an ample supply of last making medium.

Any way, before using felled tree maple wood, however, you are going to need to "sun kiln" dry it. It usually takes one year in a sun kiln to drain or dry out the pith. Alternatively you can bake it at 150 degrees for 24 hours in a standard oven and test it with a moisture tester. it should be at the same humitity as your air in your area. If not continue bakeing it. It is truely cheeper to use a sun kiln.

This sun kiln is simply a shed built out of plastic plumbers pipe and clear plastic for shething. It should be place on the north shadowy side of your house. you can do a google search in thier images under "sun kiln"

while drying the cut rounds of the tree should remain in tact. After one year they can be devided for last making.

when using this wood for last making, cut it in a coffin shape. and begin your last making from that point. See golding V, I.

Long long ago before digital cameras and CAD I made a 2 wood lathe machine built around a Sears Router Recreater that would make both right and left lasts from the same pattern. I still have the dimensioned drawings from which it was built if anyone wants to see them.
I found it wanting. Not machine tool quality.
A few years ago I posted a picture of the Gilman Cone Head Last Lathe that I rebuilt and I was not able to find it so it is attached here. I added variable speed DC gearmotors to turn the spindles and drive the cross slide. I also made anti-backlash spindle boxes. The size changing mechanisms are motion modifying linkages that add or subtract from the pattern follower. This is non-trivial. A pantagraph will not create the same shape in a different size unless the cutter diameter is changed in the same proportion.

William
Could you please explain what you found substandard in the first device that you built?
I suspect that it would be the quality of the Sears unit. Do you think that we would experience the same type of problems using one of the newer copy crafters, or a shop made version of one with tight tolerances?

To all
I operated a last lath in the early 80's. I can not remeber the name it was from Holland WW11 vintage. I would do some grading, same kind and Mirror.

The cutter was a fixed 3 blade cutter head about 3 inches diameter. The blades were IIRC about 5/8 radius and gouge shaped. The orginal and the blank would turn.

If you can find some old posts from Lyle T. Davis he had made a last mill.

John,

Substandard is not the right description.

Visualize trying to lift and position a brick using a fishing rod.

Take a hand grinder and make sawdust out of 200 cubic inches of wood.

The small copiers use a steel ball on the end of a small rod as a stylus to follow the pattern. The steel ball does not roll and you need some weight on it for the router to be able to cut. The left to right movement of the duplicator will need to be fixed and the stylus and the cutter need to be exactly the same distance apart as the lathes and they need to be exactly in line with each other and the axis of the centerlines of the lathes. A 64th of an inch is big in lastmaking. It is not so critical that the axis of the router intersect the centerline of the lathe.
Then you need to hold the stylus with your hand so that it barely touches the last and there is no sideways deflection. You are not going to be able to turn the last pattern and have the stylus+ router follow it when you are near the toe or the back half of the last. You will reach the locking angle. You have to lift the stylus. (This is where the tangent of angle between the centerline of the stylus and a line drawn between the center of the steel ball and the point where the steel ball contacts the pattern is equal to the coefficient of friction between the two materials). Also called the friction angle. Think of trying to push something up an incline and you can only push horizontally and the angle is getting steeper and steeper.

I mounted my stylus and router to a single piece of 3/8 inch aluminum plate. This helped the rigidity of the machine. I put precision 3” round steel drums about 4” long on the back of each (Harbor Freight) lathe spindle. Then I wrapped 2 lengths of .010 by ½ inch wide steel feeler gage stock around both of the drums. The steel band between the 2 drums was wrapped in a spiral so the lathes could go around a little more than a complete turn.
When I wanted the two lathes to turn opposite directions to make the other hand last I crossed the 2 steel bands. The bands were taut to give an anti-backlash or no-shake condition. Very important.
I still have a pair of lasts that I made on it. I cut this pair out of a larger size last so I could make use of the hinge.
I have the sketches from which the custom parts were made and will share them if anyone wants to see how much work is involved or to build on my experience. This is a hard way to go.

In 1980 there were still Gilman Last Lathes around, I picked up the one that I rebuilt from Century Last Co. in Portsmouth, Ohio. This machine can go from 2/3 to 1-1/2 times the length of the pattern and at the same time can go from 4 widths narrower to 4 widths wider. I have figured out what I need to do to make the last taper from one width at the forepart to a second width at the heel.

Bill

To those who have posted under Lasts, Eric tried to move it over to "the last question" however, this question does apply to both topics.

Anyway, You guys have been awesome! I just want to recoginize your foritude, experience and creatitivity. At first the question was met with resisistance, but discussing such a question really does help all of us and I am glad many have by passed the resistance and entertained this thought. Many of us simply wanting to duplicate but do not have room for a gilman.

I want to let you all know that JP Boots has informed me that they are closing thier last making section and want to let go of all thier equipment. they have last models, tools, and the like. And have a gilman. when looking at it, it looked like the pentagraph arm, hanging in the picture on his site, is broken,but he assures me it is a working machine. I belive they are a member of this forum.

Lastmaking school.com although tempted does not have room for his gilman.

The creativity and experience and expertise from you guys has been great and I hope that we can continue to come up with ideas to the point of building a desk top analgue machine.

Thank you guys. You are much appreciated.

I am wondering where to go now on this. Bill Harris has forgotton more about engineering than I will ever know, and his post seems to indicate that a desktop machine will be very difficult to achieve. The obvious course of action would be to get a gilman and be done with it. But, cost, space and availabilty are major factors here.
Has anyone got any fresh ideas?

Bill,
I just wondered, you mentioned that using the desktop machine was like a brick on the end of a fishing pole. What do you think would be the result if instead of a router, you used an air powered die grinder. A lot less weight out there?

John,

My analogy of using a fishing rod to position a brick is that I did not find a router-duplicator to be the right tool to copy lasts. One problem is with the stylus that follows the surface of the last. Other issues are trying to make a last with a different length and/or width.
I could design you a stylus with a ball bearing roller that would get you the ability to go completely around the last with out having to manually lift the stylus/router arm (No charge). The stylus would taper up to perhaps an inch in diameter at the top for rigidity. The roller itself would be made from a ½ inch diameter hardened steel ball with a precision bore through the center of it. (A Wire Electrical Discharge Machine is the tool to use to make the bore through the steel ball. I can give you the name of the shop that I use for this service.) Miniature ball bearings would be pressed into each end of the bore through the steel ball. The stylus would taper to ½ inch diameter at the working end. The ball and its bearings would fit into a slot in the end of the stylus and be retained by a very small shaft.

Back to the cutter. An air grinder would be less weight but the stylus/router arm is counterbalanced. You will need at least a 2 horsepower air compressor to drive the air grinder. You are going to need a serious dust collector.

I found that a ½ inch diameter round nosed cutter did not cut the wood very well near its center but rather the cutter chewed the wood down. The cutting speed drops to zero at the center of the cutter.
This is also true of a CNC machine with a round nosed cutter. The Gilman machine with 8,000 RPM and cup shaped cutters that sweep a 3-1/2 inch diameter torus doesn’t have this problem

Bill

Hey bill, I like your imput. thanks. You sound very knowlegable in this last lathe subject. Bill I would love to chat with you about some Ideas I have. I shot you an email. Lets chat.

for those of you interested in Lyle's duplicator solution check out
http://www.thehcc.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

-Marlietta
lastmakingschool.com

I am new to this forum. I am going to attempt to make my first pair of boots. I haven't a clue where to buy lasts, and the tools I will need. I am in southern PA. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Robert
I am new at this also, and still getting my tools together. Ebay is a source. Edwin Hale at Hale and Co in CA is another good source. haleandco.com He is very helpful. Dick Anderson Thornappleriverboots.com offers some various tools. I am making some for my self such as awl hafts, crimping screws and crimping boards. Lasts??? have not got that far yet. good luck
John Lewis

Hey Robert,

I could make you a pair of lasts any heel hight, toe design and sole shape. They will be custom and made from your feet model. you can check out our process by clicking here: http://lastmakingschool.com/Worshops-and-Classes-main-page.htm & here: http://lastmakingschool.com/classes/Intermediate%20Last%20Making.htm

Shoot me an email and i can explain the details. Info@lastmakingschool.com

- Marlietta
http://lastmakingschool.com/index.html

Robert,
Many of us have had success ordering lasts from http://www.globalfootwearsolutions.com. Good people.

Robert,

Yes it is true, global footwear solutions is owned by Bill Tippit and his wife. he is a last maker of more than 30 years expereince and now works as master last maker of Nike. You can down load his catalogue of types of boot lasts, in olga you can put in your measurements and order like that. you can get both plastic or wood.

other last resources is Jones and vining. they have a catalogue too. Read this threads page and you will see all the info you need to get thier catalogue as well. It is mainly line drawings though. Where as bill gives you a good visual of what you are getting.

Either one of these resources are less expensive than a custom,fit to your foot from your feets models. However, one that begins with your foot will fit your foot. Ones that are generic will need alteration with fittings.

By all means though do not just buy any last from some place like ebay unless you are just looking for a door stop.

Marlietta
http://lastmakingschool.com/

Marlietta
Could you please post pics of some of your lasts.
Regards
Brendan

Brendan,

I have to admit, that most of the lasts I have created, I have been sloppy about taking pics of. That is not to imply that my lasts are not wonderful lasts.

Since I returned to the states,most of my work has been through teaching. My teaching and writing load is packed. While abroad,during my training, I was working for others, thus, the lasts belonged to them. So, I didn't take pics. However, recently, I have been getting a call to post pics, either on my website http://lastmakingschool.com/ or here on the THCC.

I create lasts based on what is requested in the three sections of the foot pair. The toe box, the shank ( ball to center of heel seat), the heel and based on the type of footwear needed and the makers parameters. the lasts are hand made and they are either wood composite, HDPE or a combination of both.

I guess I have always felt that lasts were not the star of bespoke footwear making, the wonderful things makers can do when they make boots and shoes on a last was what was so shinny. thus, seeing another last perhaps boring,thus, I never thought to take pics.

But, Bendan, you are the 10th person this week asking for pics. So thanks all for your prompting. I currently am working on a boot last size 13 male. I will get down to work and make some lasts and record a few pics from the start of a foot model, to mid term making to finish.

however, be patient, Hand last making takes time unlike machines which can wip them out in less than an hour. Although my lasts still are a tool and may need some alterations or fittings based on what the maker is imgining vs. the lastmaker, a last that began as a foot duplicate will fit that foot no matter the heel hight or toe box style.

It will take a few weeks to get this out in between my job load. But be patient, I will get it out.

-Marlietta

Thanks evryone for the information, it is really helpful.

It appears that the number on Global Footwear Solution's website is no longer connected (it worked a few weeks ago). I am trying to get the OLGA system so I can become more familiar with Bill's styles, and I want to practice taking the measurements needed.

I tried going through the registration process via the website, but received no download link or email containing one.

I know Bill is very busy so please excuse if so, but could someone email me the OLGA program, what's the size?

Any one have a pair of boot last size 14AA or 13 1/2 A that they would consider getting selling?
Contact me off list if you would. Thanks
John Lewis
jlewis16 (at) earthlink.net

Just received my first order of 2 pair lasts from J & V.

3 weeks from the day I mailed the check. Pretty good!

Good to hear Rick. Thanks for the report.
Paul

That's been my experience, too: Good service and well-made lasts from J & V, and a huge array of styles. Bill at GFS is also excellent, though sometimes not as fast. We buyers of one pair at a time can't always be too choosy.

This may have been mentioned before but the Walnut Ridge facility has undergone, or is still undergoing, a pretty substantial upgrade. If I recall correctly they are putting nearly 3/4 million dollars into new lathes.

This gives me a lot of hope that they will remain committed to the smaller customer as well as new horizons with regard to developing lasts.

And the good thing is that the lasts are turned "in house" and in country so the lag time, such as it is, can be kept at a minimum.

Dan,

FYI...as I understand it, Bill is pretty much out of the last making business now. So sorry. J&V are the only game in town as far as I know.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thank you. We should all be pleased to hear of the Walnut Ridge expansion. A good lastmaker, as Leno said, is worth his weight in gold. I pressured Bill into doing them, as I needed wood, and JV said they couldn't. I have a valued businessman client who wants 3-piece custom wood trees, and doesn't mind paying. The wood last copy came back from Mexico perfect, just as requested: no hinge or scoop block, no spindle hole. Now to find the man with the bandsaw and steady hand--and the appropriate jigs--to cut them into 6 pieces with vee cuts, check the fit, do a little finish work.

Dan,

Jeeze...you know there's an opportunity going begging--making decent shoe trees. I know Bill was looking into it but whether it was just too difficult or whether the transition to Nike made the prospects too daunting, nothing ever came of it.

I'd guess someone could charge nearly the same amount for a set of good wood tree as for the original lasts.

As far as I can see, the only real problem would be duplicating a pair of bespoke last and doing it reasonably quickly.

[sigh]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Quite a bit more, actually: You should digitize both lasts--whose are truly mirror-image identical, except the factory's? Then you get 2 pairs, of which you must discard the wrong foot of each. Then the finishing and fitting, and don't forget the prep work turning the bespoke last into a model. The feet in this case are so close to identical I was able to use the shortcut, copying both from one foot. The product is beautiful and appealing, but how many will pay?

Dan,

But really...and I don't know, so don't hesitate to enlighten me...is there really a requirement that the tree be 100% accurate and a perfect model of the last?

The function of the tree doesn't have to be to hold the shoe in exactly the same state of tension that the last did. It only needs to flatten the outsole, smooth the creases and allow the shoe to dry in something other than a curled state.

In that context, a solid tree might actually be detrimental to drying.

Most modern trees, vintage generic trees, and even contemporary lasted trees included with high end shoes are hollowed out in the forepart and often only partially solid in the mid-part.

I still think it's a market that is ripe for some enterprising soul.

Dan,

Do you know which last manufacturer made the the wood last copy that came back from Mexico?

Thanks,
Craig

Craig,

Sorry, I don't. Bill "sent it out," and it has "Hecho en Mexico" stamped on the bottom.

DW,

Of course you're correct on all theoretical counts, especially drying. This particulsr client has read "Alles uber Herrenschuhe" and "Handmade Shoes for Men," and seen that custom, full trees can be, and have been, made; and he wants a pair for his shoes. I have sanded them all over to ensure they're not tight.
I prefer to shape a pair of stock trees (light wood, hollowed out, R & L ones, mostly from England and Germany--I get them from the thrift stores) to a custom fit.

Wood Lasts:
If anyone is interested, I am selling my complete last making operation. Lathe,models,maple blocks and all tools needed. Every thing you need to make wooden (maple) lasts for shoes or boots. Approx 100 boot models and 350 shoe models from the 1800's and up. Call or email if seriously interested.

Jp 573-346-7711
jp@jpsboots.com

I just finished speaking to Mr J Patrickus, What a gentleman,I hate to see this beautiful working last making lathe goes to nowhere,there is a picture of the lathe under "last making" in their web site.
jpsboots.com

Al, what saith thou?

Nasser, All,

That lastmaking lathe looks tempting. But at any price, I don't know where I'd put it.

What we need is to create a Buyer's Consortium and find someone who not only has a place for it but could (had the expertise) and would use it to turn lasts for the Guild. It would all have to be non-profit, of course, but it wouldn't have to be a losing proposition.

On another note, after talking with my lastmaker, I am wondering how many folks would be interested in having rough turned lasts, from wood, turned from their models. Might cost a little more than a finished plastic last. But it might also lead to, if not finished, then rough cut lasted trees, too.

I'm just now sounding folks out and exploring the idea. There has to be a market for the lastmaker to consider doing this.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

ALL:
Some of the models I have are from Krentler Bros, JV, Western Last, and some other famous model makers.

DW,

Good thinking,I was wondering in that direction too in my head,"Buyer's consortium" sounds good,I wasn't thinking non-profit,but someone with some background or good at mechanical machines who is willing to learn how to turn last for some living,which i think Mr JP will provide some training and the consortium help the right candidate with payment in exchange for future lasts in return,but which ever way works to keep this machine producing lasts rather than going to the smelter is good news to me.

Nasser

DW

I have the space and know how to make lasts, albeit, the cone off type...

Cheers,
JesseLee

I spoke with Joe last year; if I had the space I would seriously consider buying this stuff.

I think a challenge with an HCC consortium deal is how one defines 'not for profit', in that whoever operates the machine would, I presume, expect to be compensated for his time. I would think, in the eyes of the tax code, this would no longer qualify as 'not for profit.' Perhaps a way around this would be for the HCC to buy the thing and pay a pre-arranged compensation to the operator, then to sell the lasts 'at cost' to members. Even then, the relative valuation of the blanks vs. the capitalized equipment could be a sticky point. To the extent one was concerned about the HCC's tax-exempt status, I imagine a tax lawyer would be needed to vet the program. Of course, a consortium could also be arranged outside of the HCC, but lots of issues might arise there as well (since 'possession is 9/10ths of the law').

Longer term, there is also the question of sourcing last blanks.

Still, an interesting idea....

Lance

The consortium idea is intriguing. Maybe do coop of the interested peole where you sell some shares and use the money to cover the equipment, moving and start up repairs. Then the person who physically has the machine can run it as a business with profit sharing or cheap lasts to the members.

While interested in this I do have some concerns.

1. How would you set up the business model. Co-op, partnership, or S-corp or whatnot? This is not a big hurdle once the decision to do it is made. Just call a tax lawyer or accountant.

2. Source of last blanks and machine cutters for the long term? This is more of a concern. Maybe you would end up making slip lasts after the hinged blanks are gone. Or get a machine shop to make the hinges and then make the blanks. You wouldn't need a concrete plan at the beginning, but at least a contingency outline.

3. Would there be enough business to justify doing this for money, or is it just a historical preservation thing for a retired guy? If you want someone to really keep up on this and deliver product consistently they need to be able to make enough money to be worth while.

I guess that is it. Overall it really sounds like a fun thing to do, but a well thought out plan would make it less likely to end up a money pit with no return.

Paul
HCC Member

This is going to be impossible to do as an HCC project.

It's my fault...when I suggested a Buyers Consortium and associated it with the Guild. I accept the blame for an over-enthusiastic, albeit hair-brained idea.

As a practical matter, the Guild cannot afford the legal fees that might come with trying to set up a Buyer's Consortium and one that stipulates fair ownership and operating guidelines.

What's more, as it has been pointed out, the machine will inevitably end up as someone's "private property" and will just as inevitably be used for profit. Then too there are liability concerns.

If a group of forum members were to purchase the lathe and then create a business that sold lasts to one and all (perhaps at a discount to HCC members...perhaps at a greater discount to the original investors) for profit, that would be one thing.

But as a Guild project it's not going to work.

BTW, I would advise those who are seriously interested to contact JP about the price. From what I've been told it would take either a substantial number of investor or a substantial investment by each party to pull this off.

I have to admit that my initial comments were more by way of wistful musings--I have always wanted to own a lastmaking lathe--I didn't think it would really be taken seriously. But to the extent that there is serious interest, the focus must shift to doing it as a private enterprise and better it be understood at the outset.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Dear Crispinites,

I have available for the taking, first come first serve:

Full size runs, whole and half sizes, mens and womens slip hinge last for handsewn construction, (but not limited to)
I bought these about 12 years ago when Ansewn went out of business.
Wo's 5-10.5 in B,C, AA width
Mens 5-15 in D,E,EE width
There are about 110 pair, sorted and in burlap bags, on a pallet and shrink wrapped. Ready to come and take away, or get shipped. They are in the warehouse down at my old shop. If nobody takes by Friday, I will send to recycle man.
Contact me if you want them, and I give you info for the take away.
Thanks,
Tim

Crispin Folk,
The free last offer is over. They are gone, No more inquiries please.
Thanks,
Tim
PS: That was the world's quickest yard sale ever.

So... where does a newbie go to get a reasonably priced pair of lasts for making his first pair of cowboy boots?

I am a men's 9D and want to make your basic middle of the road cowboy boot (not too pointy but not too round) and this being my first attempt with no idea if I will ever make another pair I want to keep the price reasonable.

Recommendations?


------

Update: Thanks to the excellent posts in this forum I was able to locate Panhandle Leather Co. (1-800-537-3945). They are setting me up with a pair of used lasts for $20.

Can't wait to get started on my first pair of boots!

(Message edited by twheatley on June 29, 2010)

Just received my first pair of last duplicate from JV China, great service and price.

Thanks a lot from you guys.

Tim Noonan's lasts.

If these lasts could talk!

has any one used birch for last making??? I recently had a tree guy give me a boat load of birch. It was natural drain. Which means that it cured standing up dead for three years. I usually use plastic. but want to shape with wood.

Any comments would be nice.

Marlietta
http://lastmakingschool.com

Does anyone know where I can buy a pair of Munson-style lasts like the kind used for US military boots? I've searched the forum, but didn't find any info on sources.

Regards,
-Nat

Nat,

I'm sure you could get them from JV, sited earlier in this thread.

Paul

Sorry, I should have been more specific;

I'm looking for used lasts. Does JV offer used?
I thought they only made new.

-Nat

Yeah I don't think so.

But then I don't think they sell hen's teeth either.

Have you check with Larry Waller? I'd call him if it were me.

Good Luck,
POaul

Thanks Paul.
"hen's teeth?". Are you saying these lasts are hard to find?

I'll try Larry Waller.

-Nat

How hard is it to modify the toe of a dress shoe last so that its not so darn pointed. Its the plastic kind. I'm having a hard time finding a size 13D in mens size. And I don't want to make a pair of cowboy boots.

I've seen where the last has had leather glued on the sides to build it out. Whats the process? thanks mark

Mark,

Not hard at all. Rough the last up in the area that you wish to build , apply all-purpose cement to the last and to an oversize piece of insole shoulder or outsole split and let dry. Mount the leather piece, hammer firmly to the last, trim carefully to the feather edge, and skive or grind build-up so that it blends into the contours of the last. If hammering or stress is anticipated along the edge of the build-up, tacking or bradding it to the last for extra stability can be beneficial. Coat the build-up with several coats of celluloid cement or varnish, sanding in-between.

That's it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

can you do several layers to build it out? And where do I get the celluloid cement?? I've been reading about it and will need some for the toe box I believe.
Does celluloid cement have a strong odor to it and is it flameable? thanks

Yes.

Midwest Chemical (1-314-781-5831)

Yes.

Yes.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Also, you can use Apoxie, which is a 2 part epoxy clay. I use this for radical toe changes.

I wonder if the polycaprolactone plastic I'm using for lasts would stick to to the existing plastic of your last. It's a bit pricey for the whole last, but what's nice about it is you just get it hot (hot water or heat gun) and then bulldoze it around to whatever shape is of interest. Heat it back up if you don't like the result.

(Message edited by ccs on January 25, 2011)

rick,
what type of apoxie are you using? And chris can you get me more info on the poly your using. thanks mark

Apoxie sounds like it might be a filled epoxy?

Polycaprolactone is sold under many names. Cheapest in large quantity (8 lbs - not quite enough for two pairs of complete lasts, but easily 3 individuals plus some extra) is instamorph, in smaller quantities for additions friendly plastic, shapelock, polymorph plastic, etc. It does not glue well beyond its own tendency to adhere when hot though - would probably be most secure as an addition with some mechanical capture. Or you could drive a few wood screws part way in and mold it around the heads.

(Message edited by ccs on January 25, 2011)

Apoxie Sculpt. I use it quite often and it works well on wood or plastic lasts. The only limitation is that it doesn't nail well. This is usually not a problem, I just have to set the nails slightly farther back when lasting.

Apoxie is a brand of what is pretty commonly available 2 part epoxy clay. It is non-toxic (compared to Bondo anyway).

The polycaprolactone does nail, but probably won't stick onto a different base material as securely as the epoxy without some mechanical aid - without which nailing into it may not be advised.

Anyone know if Allen is still the person to contact at JV? I'm just getting started in my adventure into custom shoe making, and trying to determine where to order my first pair of lasts.

Allen is a good one to talk to but the go-to guy is Spencer Bruce...and you'll never talk to a more gentlemanly individual.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DFW,

Thanks! Will look into getting in touch with Spencer.

DW has beat me to it - so I'll just second what he's said. I just got two pr of lasts from J&V and dealt mostly with Spencer Bruce, indeed a most gentlemanly chap with a delicious semi-Southern way of speaking...what a change from rude, hasty sales people!!

I have 3 pairs of plastic lasts I don't need.

10 1/2D- marked M824 on side. Barely used.
9C- marked Vulcan WR Oct 1980 and L-22
8B- marked the same. I can send pics to anyone who is interested.

Cheers,

JesseLee

JesseLee,

Sent you an email.

Anyone have any experience with these guys?
Shoe Last Shop on eBay stores

Obviously they aren't custom, but might be good for people starting out? Still seems like JV might be the way to go considering you can send in measurements.

I've never heard of them. Looks like they're asking way too much for these lasts, since used production lasts can be had for $20.

If you're looking for a few pairs of lasts (vs. a whole run); it's hard to beat Panhandle Leather.

Cheers,
-Nat

Nat,

Thanks so much. I looked on their site and didn't see anything in regards to lasts. Also, at this point I am mostly interested in shoe making, and it looks like they mostly deal in boot supplies (not to say there isn't any crossover). Do they shoe lasts as well?

They have many things not listed on the website and I've found it works best to give them a call. Most of the lasts I've bought from them are shoe lasts. They prefer to call them "Roper Lasts", but they're actually shoe lasts (with curved heel vs. straight).
If you want to be really clear, you can ask for "5/8 heel, 5/8 toe spring". They'll know what this means.

-Nat

Nat,

Thanks again for the heads up. You have been very helpful!